Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 2  (Read 2101481 times)

Online Rodal

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 
« Last Edit: 04/17/2015 02:22 PM by Rodal »

Offline Star One

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Just how significant is that to physics in general and is it something that has been theorised to happen?

Online Rodal

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« Last Edit: 04/17/2015 05:48 PM by Rodal »

Offline aceshigh

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 


would that be a subject to ME Drive thread?

even if the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc), still, both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread, imho.

Online Rodal

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 

would that be a subject to ME Drive thread?

even if the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc), still, both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread, imho.

Yes, definitely a subject for this thread: "EM Drive Developments", insofar as NASA Eagleworks reports to have laser interferometer readings (which they attribute to spacetime contractions after several years of trying) by using an EM Drive (pillbox shape, short cylinder, I think, given the reported frequency and mode shape) in TM010 resonance mode to produce the measurements.

The reason why it belongs in this thread has nothing to do with the reason you state <<the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc),>>, but instead it has everything to do with the fact that to obtain the measurements they had to use an EM Drive !

It is very significant that it is only an EM Drive (rather than the other electromagnetic devices, including capacitors, that were previously tried)  that finally produced a laser interferometer signal that they are confident to report as such.

And concerning your statement that <<both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread>> that's incorrect: the EM Drive in the laser interferometer experiment didn't work "very differently", it worked in a transverse magnetic resonant mode at 1.4 GHz frequency, so you should clarify what you mean by working very differently from the EM Drives that have been discussed in this thread.

Discussions about laser interferometer experiments with other types of devices (other than the EM Drive) belong elsewhere.
« Last Edit: 04/17/2015 11:31 PM by Rodal »

Offline Chrochne

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 

would that be a subject to ME Drive thread?

even if the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc), still, both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread, imho.

Yes, definitely a subject for this thread: "EM Drive Developments", insofar as NASA Eagleworks reports to have measured spacetime contractions (after several years of trying) by using an EM Drive (pillbox shape, short cylinder, I think, given the reported frequency and mode shape) in TM010 resonance mode to produce the measurements.

The reason why it belongs in this thread has nothing to do with the reason you state <<the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc),>>, but instead it has everything to do with the fact that to obtain the measurements they had to use an EM Drive !

It is very significant that it is only an EM Drive (rather than the other drives that were previously tried)  that finally produced a laser interferometer signal that they are confident to report as such.

Discussions about laser interferometer readigns with other types of drives (other than the EM Drive) belong in other, separate threads.

Very interesting Dr. Rodal. I noticed that as well. It seems that EmDrive technology is opening doors to the new levels never before explored. And it is very interesting to see that happen "live" trough posts of Mr. Paul March.  I was wondering how you guys would react to this. Lately, it is like reading a sci-fi book except it is really happening in Eagleworks laboratory :)

Offline tchernik

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 

would that be a subject to ME Drive thread?

even if the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc), still, both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread, imho.

Yes, definitely a subject for this thread: "EM Drive Developments", insofar as NASA Eagleworks reports to have measured spacetime contractions (after several years of trying) by using an EM Drive (pillbox shape, short cylinder, I think, given the reported frequency and mode shape) in TM010 resonance mode to produce the measurements.

The reason why it belongs in this thread has nothing to do with the reason you state <<the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc),>>, but instead it has everything to do with the fact that to obtain the measurements they had to use an EM Drive !

It is very significant that it is only an EM Drive (rather than the other drives that were previously tried)  that finally produced a laser interferometer signal that they are confident to report as such.

Discussions about laser interferometer readigns with other types of drives (other than the EM Drive) belong in other, separate threads.

This is a point that really stood out for me, among the latest salvo of updates by Paul M.

It could represent a way to falsify the assertions about something really weird and novel going on inside these drives. And probably, becoming even an explanation of the observed results (e.g. by making the measured forces gravitic or space-warp related).

As a totally not-expert in these subjects, I can't say if the topic is pertinent or not to this topic. So, what's the usual approach in the forum? Do our kind hosts prefer to take such tangential -yet relevant- topics outside their parent thread? I'm also assuming the topic is still relevant to space flight, of course.
« Last Edit: 04/17/2015 08:02 PM by tchernik »

Online Rodal

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 

would that be a subject to ME Drive thread?

even if the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc), still, both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread, imho.

Yes, definitely a subject for this thread: "EM Drive Developments", insofar as NASA Eagleworks reports to have measured spacetime contractions (after several years of trying) by using an EM Drive (pillbox shape, short cylinder, I think, given the reported frequency and mode shape) in TM010 resonance mode to produce the measurements.

The reason why it belongs in this thread has nothing to do with the reason you state <<the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc),>>, but instead it has everything to do with the fact that to obtain the measurements they had to use an EM Drive !

It is very significant that it is only an EM Drive (rather than the other drives that were previously tried)  that finally produced a laser interferometer signal that they are confident to report as such.

Discussions about laser interferometer readigns with other types of drives (other than the EM Drive) belong in other, separate threads.

This is a point that really stood out for me, among the latest salvo of updates by Paul M.

It could represent a way to falsify the assertions about something really weird and novel going on inside these drives. And probably, becoming even an explanation of the observed results (e.g. by making the measured forces gravitic or space-warp related).

As a totally not-expert in this subjects, I can't say if the topic is pertinent or not to this topic. So, what's the usual approach in the forum? Do our kind hosts prefer to take such tangential -yet relevant- topics outside their parent thread? I'm also assuming the topic is still relevant to space flight, of course.
The poster asking for a change of thread may have innocently assumed that the laser interferometer tests were performed with a similar set-up as several years ago (that resulted in null measurements): the poster may not have understood that the recent experiments that for the first time are being reported as giving confidence in these laser interferometer measurements were performed with an EM Drive.
« Last Edit: 04/18/2015 12:41 AM by Rodal »

Offline Star One

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How close are we to establishing if there is genuine and useful effect with these drives or are we still a long way from a categorical answer. From my perspective it appears progress has been made but it seems like there's still a long, long way to go partly due to limited funding. I hate to say this but I suspect that outside of Eagle Works until they produce strong positive cast iron results backed by watertight peer reviewed theoretical papers you're not going to get others trying to replicate this work and it will continue to be perceived as fringe science.
« Last Edit: 04/17/2015 08:23 PM by Star One »

Offline ResonantSpace

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Birchoff:

"Is it possible to run the Frustum in a null configuration? If so, is that in the plans before the next report is published?"

Yes and yes.  In fact it was one of the requests made by the blue ribbon panel of PhDs that NASA/EP hired to review the Eagleworks Lab's theoretical and experimental work last summer.  Even if will take a new mounting arrangement to get it accomplished. 

Overall though the blue ribbon panel's experimentalists appeared to be pleased with our previous and upcoming lab work.  However they ripped into Sonny's QVF/MHD conjecture because it relies on the quantum vacuum being mutable and engineer-able whereas the current physics mainstream thinks that the quantum vacuum is an immutable ground energy state of the universe that can-NOT be used to convey energy or momentum as proposed by Dr. White.   However they brushed aside Sonny's QVF based derivation of the Bohr hydrogen atom electron radius as a "mathematical coincidence" and didn't have a word to say what the Casimir effect and other quantum vacuum phenomenon were caused by, that can only occur only if the QV is mutable and can convey energy and momentum.   So Sonny and Jerry Vera took it upon themselves last fall to increase this mathematical coincidence from one to more than 47 times as they explored the QV created atomic electron shell radii for atoms up to atomic number 7 all based on the QV being the root cause for all of it including the origins of the electron and all other subatomic particles.   

Wow. First off, I would like to thank you, Paul for keeping us all updated on the research and experiments you are all are doing over there. This is both fascinating in terms of technological applications but also reaches into the fundamentals of our understanding of physics. There is a great deal of evidence both in theory and in experiment showing that space is not empty as it is thought to be as probably most of us here know.

I am particularly interested in what you have said that I highlighted in red. Is there more information you can share about this or is it all unpublished and kept under wraps thus far? I would be thrilled to hear more insight or elaboration on this subject!

Thank you again for the work you are doing over there!

Offline dustinthewind

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 

I do think this is an important subject.  I believe it is important because I don't believe we have ever detected space/time waves as of yet, have we?  Isn't that the whole reason they built LIGO? (i think stands for "laser interferometry gravity-wave observatory."  If this is true and no other observations have been made then this is a major find. 

I did have my suspicions of it however because of a few reasons.  The idea of pushing against something by modulating information faster than space time can keep up to violate newtons law for conservation of momentum seems to imply pushing against something.  Most people want to say it is just light but in the back of my mind it was nagging me if we could be pushing against space time.  That is there is distance between currents and it takes time for that information to travel thus pushing against space time.  It was only speculation in the back of my mind.

I also read an experimental paper not long ago that observed something like a gravity pulse.  I'll link it here: http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0108005 .  They claimed they observed a gravity pulse when discharging a superconducting capacitor that would move a pendulum through shielding.  It is a bit long to read through. 

This guy here: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.10.1027&rep=rep1&type=pdf also claims the propulsion is greater than just emission of light, and suggested to possibly connected to Zero Point Energy or Gravity "The Casimir effect is made possible by the fact that the EM frequency modes used cannot pass through the conducting boundaries. A simple thought experiment shows that if there is any connection
between the EM ZPF and gravity, it must be at frequency modes that are not reflected by conducting surfaces. For example, a heavy object placed inside a closed metal box does not experience any appreciable
loss of weight. Therefore, the connection to gravitational fields should be looked for at EM frequency modes
that pass through all known materials, such as the sub-atomic frequency spectra"

This paper also suggests possibly more propulsion than just the light: http://arxiv.org/abs/1502.06288 "Therefore, as it is shown in Ref. [15], the propulsive force can result from the near- field and=or
the far-fi eld (radiative) mode, that is, it is not always the radiative mode of propulsion that
can be useful under the point of view of practical engineering"

Of course I only suspect what I'm talking about is related to what you dealing with (the cavity). 

One concern of mine is if they put the interferometer mirror too close to the cavity and the mirror was conductive.  The imaginary part of the magnetic field (I may be wrong about this) may penetrate the cavity wall and induce a current in the mirror.  This alternating current in the mirror would push against the current in the cavity and possibly give a false signal?  Does that sound plausible?  I don't yet know the design of this interferometry experiment.   

I had an idea one day it would be interesting to set up that capacitor experiment that gave the gravity pulse and see if LIGO or some other gravity observation unit could detect a space time wave from it. 
« Last Edit: 04/18/2015 03:20 AM by dustinthewind »

Offline aceshigh

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Dr Rodal, I assume the laser interferometer detecting space-time contractions inside an ME Drive is subject to this thread. I agree.

What I think would be subject to another thread would be a WARP DRIVE, which was the reason Dr White built the laser interferometer.

Itīs true the message I quoted said nothing about "warp drive", but I thought warp drives might be implied and end up being discussed, because they were the origin of the interferometer experiments.


if we try to understand ME Drive using these results of space warping being detected inside the cone, yes, itīs totally related to this thread.

if people decide to talk about superluminal travel by warping space, and how to even match the results inside the cone and how to extrapolate that to an alcubierre drive, than thatīs a matter to another thread, right?

Offline Stormbringer

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I really hope for progress on the interferometry experiments but i have reservations about the whole thing:


The mass of even tiny things like individual elementary particles warps space a tiny bit as per Einstein's description of gravity. So with sufficient sensitivity any interferometer measurement should detect a warp whether there is one from a device being turned on or not.

The problem is the warp effect expected is so small that I cannot be sure that the effect detected isn't due to the natural space curvature due to the mass of the device or particles in the device rather than an artificially enduced warp.

I guess i just don't understand the difference in magnitude between any natural signal and the expected artificially induced one.

If you have the beam positioned perfectly to detect a signal in the artificial regime how far to the left or right would the laser have to transit to find the natural curvature region?

I think it would be unmanageably tiny. I am not an expert so i am just going by intuition mostly. I hope that someone can reassure me i am wrong; because I really want it to be that simple to alter space-time curvature.

 
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline CW

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On a philosophical side note, I think that this whole endeavour is eventually related to 'spacetime engineering'. All existing particles or matter could be viewed as a locally 'degenerated QV', because QV is the superset of all that can potentially physically exist. In the exact place and time where a particle exists, other particles cannot exist - because that specific 'coordinate' in potentiality is already taken. The physical potentiality in that particle's place is less than in the places where no particles exist. I hence get the impression that gravity is actually a reflection or measure of how 'defective' QV is. Not without reason (to give an extreme example) we call black holes 'holes'.

Also, I have a feeling that Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle might be applicable to those defects in QV, so that they are actually 'smeared' and give an observable 'QV defect gradient', that leads to particles 'attracting' each other. We call that 'gravity'. Rather than attracting, though, I tend to think that gravity is a 'pushing effect' exerted on particles by QV potentiality gradients. Maybe it makes some sense to try and think about the EM-drive and similar devices in this way, as it might open up more mental ways to find the correct answer.

Going back to spacetime engineering:

As matter and particles are a subset of QV and hence a part of QV itself, by building stuff we basically bring together 'defects in QV potentiality' in a very specific manner and geometric placement - I think it is correct to say that we are engineering spacetime itself by doing this. Hence, what Eagleworks for instance is doing here, is figuring out a spacetime configuration (in shape of properly placed matter and energy) that creates a behavior of spacetime, which is most likely not even observable in most of the practically infinite amount of spacetime configurations (in shape of properly placed matter and energy) that 'naturally' or statistically occur in the (at least current) rest-universe.

Let's see how far this can go and if the Eagleworks boys can cause spacetime to do some funny tricks for us.
« Last Edit: 04/18/2015 10:13 AM by CW »
Reality is weirder than fiction

Online Rodal

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 

would that be a subject to ME Drive thread?

even if the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc), still, both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread, imho.

Yes, definitely a subject for this thread: "EM Drive Developments", insofar as NASA Eagleworks reports to have laser interferometer readings (which they attribute to spacetime contractions after several years of trying) by using an EM Drive (pillbox shape, short cylinder, I think, given the reported frequency and mode shape) in TM010 resonance mode to produce the measurements.

The reason why it belongs in this thread has nothing to do with the reason you state <<the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc),>>, but instead it has everything to do with the fact that to obtain the measurements they had to use an EM Drive !

It is very significant that it is only an EM Drive (rather than the other electromagnetic devices, including capacitors, that were previously tried)  that finally produced a laser interferometer signal that they are confident to report as such.

And concerning your statement that <<both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread>> that's incorrect: the EM Drive in the laser interferometer experiment didn't work "very differently", it worked in a transverse magnetic resonant mode at 1.4 GHz frequency, so you should clarify what you mean by working very differently from the EM Drives that have been discussed in this thread.

Discussions about laser interferometer experiments with other types of devices (other than the EM Drive) belong elsewhere.
How do I infer that the EM Drive that was used in the first experiments reported to give laser interferometer readings of spacetime contractions must have been a pillbox-shaped, short cylinder ?

Based on the information given by Paul March:

Quote
TM010 RF resonant cavity ...at a 1.48 GHz rate.

As I posted previously in this thread, a truncated cone cannot have a TM010 mode because the electromagnetic fields in a truncated cone cannot be constant in the longitudinal direction of the cone (due to the geometry of the cone producing a focusing, attenuating effect in the longitudinal direction).  Therefore when somebody describes a resonant cavity having a TM010 mode it must be a cylindrical cavity.  (Or, if the analyst is describing the mode of a truncated cone analogous to a cylindrical cavity, the truncated cone must be such that the big and small bases have approximately the same diameter, because otherwise this approximate mode would be cut-off in a truncated cone).

Using the well-known equation for the frequency of a cylindrical cavity (see for example  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_cavity#Cylindrical_cavity  ) , the frequency for a TM mode is:

fmnp =( c/(2 Pi  Sqrt[μr εr]) ) Sqrt[(Xmn/R)^2+(p Pi / L)^2]

for TM010 we have m=0, n=1, p=0 and therefore:

D = 2 R = ( c/(Pi  Sqrt[μr εr]) ) X01/f010

and since the speed of light in air is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light ):

 c/(Sqrt[μr εr]) = 299700000 m/s

and the Bessel Zero for m=0, n=1 is (see  http://wwwal.kuicr.kyoto-u.ac.jp/www/accelerator/a4/besselroot.htmlx ):

X01 = 2.40482555769577

and the frequency, according to Paul March (see http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1355764#msg1355764 ) was:

f010 = 1.48*10^9 Hz

We conclude that the diameter of the cylindrical resonant cavity used in these experiments was:

D = (299700000 m/s)*2.40482555769577 / (Pi * 1.48*10^9 1/s) = 0.1550 m = 6.103 inches

Hence we conclude that the RF resonant cavity used for the first successful experiments reported to give laser interferometer readings of spacetime contractions must have been a cylinder having 6.103 inches diameter.

How do I infer that the cylinder must have been short, "pillbox shaped" with a length equal or smaller than its diameter ?  Because the geometry of the experimental setup previously disclosed by NASA Eagleworks does not appear to be big enough to accommodate a significantly longer cylinder:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/White-Juday_Warp_Field_Interferometer_Experiment.png

Perhaps Paul March could confirm what were the geometrical dimensions of the EM Drive used in these experiments,  and whether or not it had a dielectric insert and if so what type of dielectric was used.
« Last Edit: 04/19/2015 01:39 AM by Rodal »

Offline dustinthewind

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 

would that be a subject to ME Drive thread?

even if the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc), still, both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread, imho.

Yes, definitely a subject for this thread: "EM Drive Developments", insofar as NASA Eagleworks reports to have laser interferometer readings (which they attribute to spacetime contractions after several years of trying) by using an EM Drive (pillbox shape, short cylinder, I think, given the reported frequency and mode shape) in TM010 resonance mode to produce the measurements.

The reason why it belongs in this thread has nothing to do with the reason you state <<the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc),>>, but instead it has everything to do with the fact that to obtain the measurements they had to use an EM Drive !

It is very significant that it is only an EM Drive (rather than the other electromagnetic devices, including capacitors, that were previously tried)  that finally produced a laser interferometer signal that they are confident to report as such.

And concerning your statement that <<both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread>> that's incorrect: the EM Drive in the laser interferometer experiment didn't work "very differently", it worked in a transverse magnetic resonant mode at 1.4 GHz frequency, so you should clarify what you mean by working very differently from the EM Drives that have been discussed in this thread.

Discussions about laser interferometer experiments with other types of devices (other than the EM Drive) belong elsewhere.
How do I infer that the EM Drive that was used in the first experiments reported to give laser interferometer readings of spacetime contractions must have been a pillbox-shaped, short cylinder ?

Based on the information given by Paul March:

Quote
TM010 RF resonant cavity ...at a 1.48 GHz rate.

As I posted previously in this thread, a truncated cone cannot have a TM010 mode because the electromagnetic fields in a truncated cone cannot be constant in the longitudinal direction of the cone (due to the geometry of the cone producing a focusing, attenuating effect in the longitudinal direction).  Therefore when somebody describes a resonant cavity having a TM010 mode it must be a cylindrical cavity.  (Or, if the analyst is describing the mode of a truncated cone analogous to a cylindrical cavity, the truncated cone must be such that the big and small bases have approximately the same diameter, because otherwise this approximate mode would be cut-off in a truncated cone).

Using the well-known equation for the frequency of a cylindrical cavity (see for example  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_cavity#Cylindrical_cavity  ) , the frequency for a TM mode is:

fmnp =( c/(2 Pi  Sqrt[μr εr]) ) Sqrt[(Xmn/R)^2+(p Pi / L)^2]

for TM010 we have m=0, n=1, p=0 and therefore:

D = 2 R = ( c/(Pi  Sqrt[μr εr]) ) X01/f010

and since the speed of light in air is:

 c/(Sqrt[μr εr]) = 299705000 m/s

and the Bessel Zero 01 is:

X01 = 2.40482555769577

and the frequency, according to Paul March was:

f010 = 1.48*10^9 Hz

We conclude that the diameter of the cylindrical resonant cavity used in these experiments was:

D = (299705000 m/s)*2.40482555769577 / (Pi * 1.48*10^9 1/s) = 0.1550 m = 6.103 inches

Hence we conclude that the RF resonant cavity used for the first successful experiments reported to give laser interferometer readings of spacetime contractions must have been a cylinder having 6.103 inches diameter.

How do I infer that the cylinder must have been short, "pillbox shaped" with a length equal or smaller than its diameter ?  Because the geometry of the experimental setup previously disclosed by NASA Eagleworks does not appear to be big enough to accommodate a significantly longer cylinder:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/White-Juday_Warp_Field_Interferometer_Experiment.png

Perhaps Paul March could confirm what were the geometrical dimensions of the EM Drive used in these experiments,  and whether or not it had a dielectric insert and if so what type of dielectric was used.

I have to admit I have my doubts what I think is going on, is what is going on in these cavities, having only one radiation input I can't be sure.  If I were going to test them for what I am talking about I would take two cylindrical cavities with the radiation input of one cavity able to be phase shifted and amplified.  Put the two cavities flat plates next to each other so that the imaginary magnetic field (non radiating [decaying]) overlaps.  The separation would be about 1/4 lambda separation in air for the frequency chosen.  My guess is the signal of one would bleed into the other cavity which would seem to push them to be matched up in phase and not perfectly out of phase %pi/2.  They are supposed to be out of phase %pi/2 so you increase the phase and amplitude of the cavity that is working against the other till it seems they are properly out of phase 1/4 lambda with matching amplitude.  You might install a current sensor on each cavity to make sure you know the exact current phase and amplitude.  Maybe then its possible to stack the cavities on top of each other one after the other all being off in phase 0, %pi/2, %pi, 3%pi/2 ect.  I would possibly throw a dielectric between the two cavities which would change their separation thickness depending on the change in speed of light between them making the two cavities closer.  That's how I would do it if I had the ability. 
« Last Edit: 04/18/2015 09:47 PM by dustinthewind »

Offline Star-Drive

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We should discuss these news, that NASA Eagleworks

finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal...the laser interferometer observed spacetime contractions are being developed in a TM010 RF resonant cavity that is driving ac E-field levels over 900kV/m at a 1.48 GHz rate. 

would that be a subject to ME Drive thread?

even if the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc), still, both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread, imho.

Yes, definitely a subject for this thread: "EM Drive Developments", insofar as NASA Eagleworks reports to have laser interferometer readings (which they attribute to spacetime contractions after several years of trying) by using an EM Drive (pillbox shape, short cylinder, I think, given the reported frequency and mode shape) in TM010 resonance mode to produce the measurements.

The reason why it belongs in this thread has nothing to do with the reason you state <<the underlying principle is related (quantum vaccum, etc),>>, but instead it has everything to do with the fact that to obtain the measurements they had to use an EM Drive !

It is very significant that it is only an EM Drive (rather than the other electromagnetic devices, including capacitors, that were previously tried)  that finally produced a laser interferometer signal that they are confident to report as such.

And concerning your statement that <<both drives would work very differently... so the warp drive needs itīs own thread>> that's incorrect: the EM Drive in the laser interferometer experiment didn't work "very differently", it worked in a transverse magnetic resonant mode at 1.4 GHz frequency, so you should clarify what you mean by working very differently from the EM Drives that have been discussed in this thread.

Discussions about laser interferometer experiments with other types of devices (other than the EM Drive) belong elsewhere.
How do I infer that the EM Drive that was used in the first experiments reported to give laser interferometer readings of spacetime contractions must have been a pillbox-shaped, short cylinder ?

Based on the information given by Paul March:

Quote
TM010 RF resonant cavity ...at a 1.48 GHz rate.

As I posted previously in this thread, a truncated cone cannot have a TM010 mode because the electromagnetic fields in a truncated cone cannot be constant in the longitudinal direction of the cone (due to the geometry of the cone producing a focusing, attenuating effect in the longitudinal direction).  Therefore when somebody describes a resonant cavity having a TM010 mode it must be a cylindrical cavity.  (Or, if the analyst is describing the mode of a truncated cone analogous to a cylindrical cavity, the truncated cone must be such that the big and small bases have approximately the same diameter, because otherwise this approximate mode would be cut-off in a truncated cone).

Using the well-known equation for the frequency of a cylindrical cavity (see for example  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_cavity#Cylindrical_cavity  ) , the frequency for a TM mode is:

fmnp =( c/(2 Pi  Sqrt[μr εr]) ) Sqrt[(Xmn/R)^2+(p Pi / L)^2]

for TM010 we have m=0, n=1, p=0 and therefore:

D = 2 R = ( c/(Pi  Sqrt[μr εr]) ) X01/f010

and since the speed of light in air is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light ):

 c/(Sqrt[μr εr]) = 299700000 m/s

and the Bessel Zero for m=0, n=1 is (see  http://wwwal.kuicr.kyoto-u.ac.jp/www/accelerator/a4/besselroot.htmlx ):

X01 = 2.40482555769577

and the frequency, according to Paul March (see http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1355764#msg1355764 ) was:

f010 = 1.48*10^9 Hz

We conclude that the diameter of the cylindrical resonant cavity used in these experiments was:

D = (299700000 m/s)*2.40482555769577 / (Pi * 1.48*10^9 1/s) = 0.1550 m = 6.103 inches

Hence we conclude that the RF resonant cavity used for the first successful experiments reported to give laser interferometer readings of spacetime contractions must have been a cylinder having 6.103 inches diameter.

How do I infer that the cylinder must have been short, "pillbox shaped" with a length equal or smaller than its diameter ?  Because the geometry of the experimental setup previously disclosed by NASA Eagleworks does not appear to be big enough to accommodate a significantly longer cylinder:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/White-Juday_Warp_Field_Interferometer_Experiment.png

Perhaps Paul March could confirm what were the geometrical dimensions of the EM Drive used in these experiments,  and whether or not it had a dielectric insert and if so what type of dielectric was used.

Dr. Rodal:

The dimension for the 1.48 GHz TM010 pillbox cylindrical cavity used in the warp-field interferometer test are in the second presentation I sent you privately earlier this week that was authored by Frank Davies.  I'm appending the pertinent interior dimensions data from same below.

Height:   2.845”  (72.26 mm)
Diameter: 6.103”  (155.02 mm)
Material: Aluminum 6061-T4 
Conductivity: 2.265E+07

Next for ACES-High, a clarifying statement on the Q-Thrusters aka EM drives verses the Q-V based warp-drives.  They are one and the same thing except the warp drive requires a different more toroid-like topology, with much, much higher E-field intensities and perhaps somewhat higher operating frequencies as well.  So the Eagleworks lab considers our Q-thruster research a necessary pathway to the design of an operational warp drive.  The question then becomes how much energy are we going to have to switch and at what operating frequency needed to warp space-time into an Alcubierre drive like warp-bubble that is big enough to encompass our ship and that can generate a contraction in space-time that is equivalent to a 10X, 100X or even a 1,000X increase in the at rest vacuum speed of light?   

Lastly, the Eagleworks Lab's next paper on the Q-V entitled "Dynamics of the Vacuum" will be out on the NASA NTRS internet servers just any day now.  I've already provided this forum a one page abstract and introduction for this paper, but I need to agree with those that are saying that in the end analysis, the seat of all mater and space is nothing more than waves and various vortices AKA elementary particles in the Q-V.  And we also think from our ongoing work that gravity is an emergent phenomenon that is nothing more than a Q-V flow field between other Q-V entities.  So when the EM-Drive creates a thrust like phenomenon, what is really happening is that the EM-drive configuration is just setting up these Q-V flows via magneto-Hydro-Dynamics (MHD) like rules that translate into our 4D universe as space-time distortions or differential gravity gradients surrounding the drive. 

And my parting comment tonight is from the Star Trek NTG Universe: "Engage"

Best, Paul M.

Offline aceshigh

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Paul, if the warp effect was only detected inside the cone topology, why is that and how Dr Sonny plans to "transplant" the effect to a torus like topology?

also, if the effect are one and the same, you mean the little thrust being detected on the ME Drive is actually caused by a small warping of space?

Offline CW

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[..]

Lastly, the Eagleworks Lab's next paper on the Q-V entitled "Dynamics of the Vacuum" will be out on the NASA NTRS internet servers just any day now.  I've already provided this forum a one page abstract and introduction for this paper, but I need to agree with those that are saying that in the end analysis, the seat of all mater and space is nothing more than waves and various vortices AKA elementary particles in the Q-V.  And we also think from our ongoing work that gravity is an emergent phenomenon that is nothing more than a Q-V flow field between other Q-V entities.  So when the EM-Drive creates a thrust like phenomenon, what is really happening is that the EM-drive configuration is just setting up these Q-V flows via magneto-Hydro-Dynamics (MHD) like rules that translate into our 4D universe as space-time distortions or differential gravity gradients surrounding the drive. 

And my parting comment tonight is from the Star Trek NTG Universe: "Engage"

Best, Paul M.

When you speak of Q-V flows, can we imagine this phenomenon similar to a quantum wake that could be felt in front of the drive as a suction effect, and behind the drive as a pushing effect? Is it comparable to what a water jet engine produces in water?

Best regards
CW
Reality is weirder than fiction

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CLARIFICATIONS




Paul, if the warp effect was only detected inside the cone topology, why is that ...

NOT A CONE, BUT A CYLINDER

1) as previously remarked in previous posts (TM010 modes cannot take place in a cone), and now confirmed by Paul March, the EM Drive used in the interferometer tests is not a cone.  It is a cylinder.  A cylinder that has its length equal to only about 1/2 its diameter.  It looks like a metallic round pillbox rather than looking like a cone.






Paul, if the warp effect was only detected inside ....

NOT INSIDE, BUT OUTSIDE ?

2) NASA's experiment is looking at changes of path length of the laser's beam path.  The EM Drive's are resonant closed cavities made of conducting metals (like copper or aluminum), with microwave fields inside them.  Hence, it appears to me, that the interferometer measurements are made outside (rather than inside) these closed metal cavities.

Of course, the laser and the mirror are not inside the round-pillbox-shaped EM Drive, but outside it.

Assuming that no optical windows were cut through the EM Drive, it appears to me therefore that this experimental set-up , is such that the round-pillbox-shaped EM Drive's is located so that its central axis is perpendicular to the line of sight between the laser and the reference mirror, out of the laser's line of sight.  And such that the line of sight between the laser and the mirror are optically uninterrupted by the EM Drive's closed metal cavity.


It would be helpful if Paul March could confirm this understanding.

EDIT: Paul March confirmed the opposite: that they did cutout holes through the pillbox resonant cavity for the laser to go through on its path from the second mirror (see post by Paul March below)






A minor point, only made because of the recurring typo ?  :)

you mean the little thrust being detected on the ME Drive
.. inside an ME Drive is subject to this thread. I agree.....
if we try to understand ME Drive ..
...
would that be a subject to ME Drive thread?..

NOT ME DRIVE, BUT EM DRIVE

3) We are discussing the EM Drive, where "EM" stands for "ElectroMagnetic", referring to the microwave electromagnetic fields inside these resonant cavities.
« Last Edit: 04/19/2015 06:59 PM by Rodal »

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