Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 2  (Read 2165642 times)

Offline Mulletron

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We differ in the full mnp description. Look at n. M is the same between us, but the coke can example has me wondering.
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Offline Rodal

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We differ in the full mnp description. Look at n. M is the same between us, but the coke can example has me wondering.

Well, I wanted to clear that up, because you had previously written:

Quote
As far as n or p go, I'm not even going to look at them until I get some feedback about the m discrepancies....

and I don't see any "m discrepancies"
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 02:13 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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I'm mixed up on the m after studying the KWOK example mostly.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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....

Here are my results.
Resolution number of time steps resonant frequency      Q           error
    1               2               none detected
    2               4               none detected
    3               6               none detected
    4               8               none detected
    5              10               1.84921E+009    negative        2 e-4
   10              20               1.85128E+009    negative        2 e-4
   20              40               1.86441E+009    ~ 500           6 e-4
   40              80               1.87262E+009    ~ 1200          3 e-4
   80             160               1.86992E+009    ~ 300          13 e-4
  160             320               1.87042E+009    ~ 80           47 e-4

 The detected frequency bounces around consistently with the error which can be taken as estimating the number of significant digits of the frequency detected.   

The quality is very low. I take that to be a result of the cavity dimensions being incorrect for the resonant frequency detected as they are also incorrect for the drive frequency.

....

Aero, please tell me again exactly what is the actual  numerical value that you actually inputed into MEEP for the drive frequency for the above calculations.  What is the number that you inputed into MEEP.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 03:00 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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So is the m resolved because the KWOK modes were so close but no cigar together? That's my hunch, but I want verify before I let it go. Lesson learned.....don't round off when it comes to mode shapes then?
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 02:33 PM by Mulletron »
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Offline Rodal

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So is the m resolved because the KWOK modes were so close but no cigar together? That's my hunch, but I want verify before I let it go. Lesson learned.....don't round off when it comes to mode shapes then?
I need to take care of $ paying work first   :).  As I get time, my first priority is to deal with aero's problem (it came first  :)  ) and after that I'll take a thorough look at the numbers in KWOK and the "n" and "p" issue you brought up.  Sorry I don't want to give you an answer as an immediate reflex.  I want to give you a thoughtful answer.  I need some time to go carefully over these issues  :)
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 06:49 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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FWIW for TE111(mnp) 2.45ghz, cavity dimensions for a cylinder are Length=0.122448m Diameter=0.0827888m in air. Or 4.8208"x 3.2594". Much more precision than necessary or attainable. The exact frequency I could get is 2.450019ghz.

Anyway what you do if you build something like this is build it to the ball park dimensions, then tune it the rest of the way with tuning screws to bring it into resonance and maximize Q. You can't build something easily with those kind of tolerances above.

Edit:
Okay to get a perfect 2.45ghz, TE111 with way too high precision:
L=0.1224489m
D=0.08278945m
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 09:02 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline aero

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....

Here are my results.
Resolution number of time steps resonant frequency      Q           error
    1               2               none detected
    2               4               none detected
    3               6               none detected
    4               8               none detected
    5              10               1.84921E+009    negative        2 e-4
   10              20               1.85128E+009    negative        2 e-4
   20              40               1.86441E+009    ~ 500           6 e-4
   40              80               1.87262E+009    ~ 1200          3 e-4
   80             160               1.86992E+009    ~ 300          13 e-4
  160             320               1.87042E+009    ~ 80           47 e-4

 The detected frequency bounces around consistently with the error which can be taken as estimating the number of significant digits of the frequency detected.   

The quality is very low. I take that to be a result of the cavity dimensions being incorrect for the resonant frequency detected as they are also incorrect for the drive frequency.

....

Aero, please tell me again exactly what is the actual  numerical value that you actually inputed into MEEP for the drive frequency for the above calculations.  What is the number that you inputed into MEEP.
Drive frequency 2.45 E+9 Hz, so wavelength = 0.1223642686 meters.
Geometry actual inside dimensions L= 0.1223642686, Dia = 0.0754898000 meters air filled cylindrical cavity with no dielectric. I am ignoring the difference between speed of light in air and vacuum.

I copied those numbers straight from the control file. This is what I used.
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Offline Mulletron

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Drive frequency 2.45 E+9 Hz, so wavelength = 0.1223642686 meters.
Geometry actual inside dimensions L= 0.1223642686, Dia = 0.0754898000 meters air filled cylindrical cavity with no dielectric. I am ignoring the difference between speed of light in air and vacuum.

I copied those numbers straight from the control file. This is what I used.

I get TE111, 2.63018ghz from that.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 03:57 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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....

Here are my results.
Resolution number of time steps resonant frequency      Q           error
    1               2               none detected
    2               4               none detected
    3               6               none detected
    4               8               none detected
    5              10               1.84921E+009    negative        2 e-4
   10              20               1.85128E+009    negative        2 e-4
   20              40               1.86441E+009    ~ 500           6 e-4
   40              80               1.87262E+009    ~ 1200          3 e-4
   80             160               1.86992E+009    ~ 300          13 e-4
  160             320               1.87042E+009    ~ 80           47 e-4

 The detected frequency bounces around consistently with the error which can be taken as estimating the number of significant digits of the frequency detected.   

The quality is very low. I take that to be a result of the cavity dimensions being incorrect for the resonant frequency detected as they are also incorrect for the drive frequency.

....

Aero, please tell me again exactly what is the actual  numerical value that you actually inputed into MEEP for the drive frequency for the above calculations.  What is the number that you inputed into MEEP.
Drive frequency 2.45 E+9 Hz, so wavelength = 0.1223642686 meters.
Geometry actual inside dimensions L= 0.1223642686, Dia = 0.0754898000 meters air filled cylindrical cavity with no dielectric. I am ignoring the difference between speed of light in air and vacuum.

I copied those numbers straight from the control file. This is what I used.

Sorry to be insistent, but just to make clear, could you please confirm that the numerical value that you actually typed as an input for MEEP was 2.45 E+9 ?

I am not asking what the frequency in Hz should be.  I am asking what number you typed as an input to MEEP.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 04:00 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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....

Here are my results.
Resolution number of time steps resonant frequency      Q           error
    1               2               none detected
    2               4               none detected
    3               6               none detected
    4               8               none detected
    5              10               1.84921E+009    negative        2 e-4
   10              20               1.85128E+009    negative        2 e-4
   20              40               1.86441E+009    ~ 500           6 e-4
   40              80               1.87262E+009    ~ 1200          3 e-4
   80             160               1.86992E+009    ~ 300          13 e-4
  160             320               1.87042E+009    ~ 80           47 e-4

 The detected frequency bounces around consistently with the error which can be taken as estimating the number of significant digits of the frequency detected.   

The quality is very low. I take that to be a result of the cavity dimensions being incorrect for the resonant frequency detected as they are also incorrect for the drive frequency.

....

Aero, please tell me again exactly what is the actual  numerical value that you actually inputed into MEEP for the drive frequency for the above calculations.  What is the number that you inputed into MEEP.
Drive frequency 2.45 E+9 Hz, so wavelength = 0.1223642686 meters.
Geometry actual inside dimensions L= 0.1223642686, Dia = 0.0754898000 meters air filled cylindrical cavity with no dielectric. I am ignoring the difference between speed of light in air and vacuum.

I copied those numbers straight from the control file. This is what I used.

Sorry to be insistent, but just to make clear, could you please confirm that the numerical value that you actually typed as an input for MEEP was 2.45 E+9 ?

I am not asking what the frequency in Hz should be.  I am asking what number you typed as an input to MEEP.

Quote from: http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep_Introduction
Moreover, since c = 1 in Meep units, a (or a / c) is our unit of time as well. In particular, the frequency f in Meep (corresponding to a time dependence e − i2πft) is always specified in units of c / a

Note: if you use meters as the unit of length in MEEP, then it must follow that the MEEP unit of time is meters and the MEEP unit of frequency is 1/meter.

If you used meters as the unit of length such that your input was

aeroMeepLength = 0.1223642686

aeroMeepDiameter = 0.0754898000

[Showing only 6 signficant digits for calculations from now on, but I am using full Mathematica precision]

aeroMeepRadius = 0.0377449


In meters/second the speeds of light:

cVacuum = c
               = 299792458;


cAir = c / (Sqrt[mur*epsilonr])
       = 299705000

Then your input for frequency to MEEP, in MEEP units, for mode TE111, (m=1,n=1,p=1) should have been:

p = 1;

X'1,1=1.84118378134065;

frequencyTEMeep
             =  (cAir/cVacuum) (1/(2*Pi))*Sqrt[(X'1,1/aeroMeepRadius)^2 +((p*Pi/aeroMeepLength)^2)]
             =  (cAir/cVacuum) (1/(2*Pi))*Sqrt[(1.84118378134065/0.0377449)^2 +((1*Pi/0.122364)^2)]
            =  8.77064

In MEEP units of frequency (1/meter) which is almost 9 orders of magnitude smaller than 2.45 E+9

In other words, as an input to MEEP you must divide the expression for frequency (for example as it appears in Wikipedia) by cVacuum in order to input frequency in MEEP frequency units of 1/length.

Once you have done this, you consequently have to interpret the MEEP output for frequency in MEEP frequency units (which are not Hz, they are 1/length).

For example:  Meep frequency of 8.77064 (1/meter) corresponds to  8.77064*c = 8.77064*cVacuum  = 2.62937 GHz
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 06:36 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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...
Geometry actual inside dimensions L= 0.1223642686, Dia = 0.0754898000 meters air filled cylindrical cavity with no dielectric. I am ignoring the difference between speed of light in air and vacuum.
Scale factor, 0.01, but is a parameter to adjust
The above gives geometry simulation dimensions in scaled units = 012.23642686, 007.54898000
...
I don't follow the need for this "scale factor"  (Scale factor, 0.01) you are using.  It may unnecessarily complicate things -- I would not use it until you have exactly matched the exact solution.

The mention of "scale factor" in MEEP I found was in http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep_Reference as:

Quote
susceptibility
Parent class for various dispersive susceptibility terms, parameterized by an anisotropic amplitude σ (see Material dispersion in Meep):
sigma [number]
The scale factor σ.

But the exact solution (of an empty cylindrical cavity) we are considering does not consider any anisotropic materials consideration.

You have to be careful as to what MEEP will interpret as inputs ("garbage in" = "garbage out"  :)  ).  If you input to MEEP  L= 0.1223642686 (meters), Dia = 0.0754898000 (meters), then the MEEP frequency should be as per my previous post in 8.77064 1/meters units.  (And you should interpret the output in 1/meters frequency units as well)


If instead you input L = 12.23642686,  D= 7.54898000 you are effectively using centimeters as your input unit, and therefore your MEEP frequency should be input in 1/cm units, giving 0.0877064  1/centimeter ,  but again, what is the need to use a Scale Factor? 
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 06:28 PM by Rodal »

Offline aero

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The scale factor, also known as characteristic length - "we pick some characteristic lengthscale in the system, a, and use that as our unit of distance." Or, more detailed, from "Units in Meep" here; http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep_Introduction

Quote
In particular, because Maxwell's equations are scale invariant (multiplying the sizes of everything by 10 just divides the corresponding solution frequencies by 10), it is convenient in electromagnetic problems to choose scale-invariant units (see our online textbook, ch. 2). That means that we pick some characteristic lengthscale in the system, a, and use that as our unit of distance.
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Offline Rodal

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The scale factor, also known as characteristic length - "we pick some characteristic lengthscale in the system, a, and use that as our unit of distance." Or, more detailed, from "Units in Meep" here; http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep_Introduction

Quote
In particular, because Maxwell's equations are scale invariant (multiplying the sizes of everything by 10 just divides the corresponding solution frequencies by 10), it is convenient in electromagnetic problems to choose scale-invariant units (see our online textbook, ch. 2). That means that we pick some characteristic lengthscale in the system, a, and use that as our unit of distance.

 It unnecessarily complicates things at this point, it presents extra problems of interpretation -- I would not use it until you have exactly matched the exact solution.  If you must, use Scale Factor =1, for the time being: if you input to MEEP  L= 0.1223642686 (meters), Dia = 0.0754898000 (meters), then the MEEP frequency should be as per my previous post in 8.77064 1/meters units.  (And you should interpret the output in 1/meters frequency units as well)


If instead you input L = 12.23642686,  D= 7.54898000 you are effectively using centimeters as your input unit of length, and therefore your MEEP frequency should be input in 1/cm units, giving MEEP Frequency = 0.0877064  1/centimeter, and you would have to multiply the output frequencies by cVacuum = 29979245800 centimeter/second to express the output in Hz.  Unnecessarily messy at this point.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 06:53 PM by Rodal »

Offline aero

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The scale factor, also known as characteristic length - "we pick some characteristic lengthscale in the system, a, and use that as our unit of distance." Or, more detailed, from "Units in Meep" here; http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep_Introduction

Quote
In particular, because Maxwell's equations are scale invariant (multiplying the sizes of everything by 10 just divides the corresponding solution frequencies by 10), it is convenient in electromagnetic problems to choose scale-invariant units (see our online textbook, ch. 2). That means that we pick some characteristic lengthscale in the system, a, and use that as our unit of distance.

 It unnecessarily complicates things at this point, it presents extra problems of interpretation -- I would not use it until you have exactly matched the exact solution.  If you must, use Scale Factor =1, for the time being: if you input to MEEP  L= 0.1223642686 (meters), Dia = 0.0754898000 (meters), then the MEEP frequency should be as per my previous post in 8.77064 1/meters units.  (And you should interpret the output in 1/meters frequency units as well)


If instead you input L = 12.23642686,  D= 7.54898000 you are effectively using centimeters as your input unit of length, and therefore your MEEP frequency should be input in 1/cm units, giving MEEP Frequency = 0.0877064  1/centimeter, and you would have to multiply the output frequencies by cVacuum = 29979245800 centimeter/second to express the output in Hz.  Unnecessarily messy at this point.

It doesn't work that way. I input units in meters, and the scale factor. The input is scaled, then the output that I gave you is "unscaled" to be in SI units. But yes, I can run meep with a scale factor of 1. It gives the same answers but takes more CPU so the runs are longer. Not to bad for this simple 1D calibration problem though.

Here is an example using resolution = 1200, which is quite low resolution.
frequency            quality factor                  error
1.86060E+009   37934.0653626318    7.872026063658947e-6+0.0i
 Had I used this scale factor and geometry to generate 2D images of the developing fields, it would take about 12 hours computer run time, per meep estimate. Generating those images using a scale factor of 0.01 takes about 45 minutes as I recall.

I think the solution is in p, the cavity length. If I understand it at all, the cavity with length less than 1/2 wavelength resonates in the p=0 mode, with cavity length between 1/2 and 3/2 wavelength it can resonate in a p=1 mode, with cavity length between 3/2 and 5/2 wavelength it can resonate in p=2 mode and so forth.

But when I calculate a radius using cavity length = wave length, that radius gives a resonant frequency of about 2.28 GHz. Then I adjust the cavity length to obtain a resonant frequency of 2.45 GHz, the formula (inverted to calculate R) gives a new R. Plugging that new R back into the frequency formula with the adjusted cavity length, the frequency formula gives back the same 2.28 GHz.  I don't understand it yet but I'm working on it.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 07:50 PM by aero »
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Offline Rodal

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The scale factor, also known as characteristic length - "we pick some characteristic lengthscale in the system, a, and use that as our unit of distance." Or, more detailed, from "Units in Meep" here; http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep_Introduction

Quote
In particular, because Maxwell's equations are scale invariant (multiplying the sizes of everything by 10 just divides the corresponding solution frequencies by 10), it is convenient in electromagnetic problems to choose scale-invariant units (see our online textbook, ch. 2). That means that we pick some characteristic lengthscale in the system, a, and use that as our unit of distance.

 It unnecessarily complicates things at this point, it presents extra problems of interpretation -- I would not use it until you have exactly matched the exact solution.  If you must, use Scale Factor =1, for the time being: if you input to MEEP  L= 0.1223642686 (meters), Dia = 0.0754898000 (meters), then the MEEP frequency should be as per my previous post in 8.77064 1/meters units.  (And you should interpret the output in 1/meters frequency units as well)


If instead you input L = 12.23642686,  D= 7.54898000 you are effectively using centimeters as your input unit of length, and therefore your MEEP frequency should be input in 1/cm units, giving MEEP Frequency = 0.0877064  1/centimeter, and you would have to multiply the output frequencies by cVacuum = 29979245800 centimeter/second to express the output in Hz.  Unnecessarily messy at this point.

It doesn't work that way. I input units in meters, and the scale factor. The input is scaled, then the output that I gave you is "unscaled" to be in SI units. But yes, I can run meep with a scale factor of 1. It gives the same answers but takes more CPU so the runs are longer. Not to bad for this simple 1D calibration problem though.

Here is an example using resolution = 1200, which is quite low resolution.
frequency            quality factor                  error
1.86060E+009   37934.0653626318    7.872026063658947e-6+0.0i
 Had I used this scale factor and geometry to generate 2D images of the developing fields, it would take about 12 hours computer run time, per meep estimate. Generating those images using a scale factor of 0.01 takes about 45 minutes as I recall.

Wait a minute, this is the first time that I see:

frequency            quality factor                  error
1.86060E+009   37934.0653626318    7.872026063658947e-6+0.0i

from you.


do you agree or not, that your input frequency should have been frequencyTEMeep =  8.77064 (1/meters) if your length input is in meters?  ???

and that the problem you had was that you were inputting frequency into Meep in Hertz instead of using consistent MEEP units ?  ???
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 07:34 PM by Rodal »

Offline aero

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No it's not, that resolution is likely somewhere between these  lines.

 10              20               1.85128E+009    negative        2 e-4
 20              40               1.86441E+009    ~ 500           6 e-4
 40              80               1.87262E+009    ~ 1200          3 e-4

that I posted 2 pages back.

And no I don't. The meep input frequency must be in the same dimensional units as the geometry, I use SI units.

I have made progress though. Using the frequency formula to adjust cavity length so that the formula gave 2.45GHz, required a cavity length about  0.0965 meters. Iteratively running meep and adjusting the cavity length to force resonance at 2.45 GHZ independently produced a cavity length of 0.0936 meters.

I emphasize that I worked those problems independently of each other so the fact that they are in near agreement is telling. I would like to find a combination length and radius that would give the frequency without the length being so close to 3/4 wavelength. In fact, I would like for the length to be exactly one wavelength and for which I knew the mode. TE 1,1,1 would be good, but TE 1,4,1 might also work. Maybe now that I have found one solution, I can find more solutions.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 08:27 PM by aero »
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Offline Rodal

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No it's not, that resolution is likely somewhere between these  lines.

 10              20               1.85128E+009    negative        2 e-4
 20              40               1.86441E+009    ~ 500           6 e-4
 40              80               1.87262E+009    ~ 1200          3 e-4

that I posted 2 pages back.

And no I don't. The meep input frequency must be in the same dimensional units as the geometry, I use SI units.

I have made progress though. Using the frequency formula to adjust cavity length so that the formula gave 2.45GHz, required a cavity length about  0.0965 meters. Iteratively running meep and adjusting the cavity length to force resonance at 2.45 GHZ independently produced a cavity length of 0.0936 meters.

I emphasize that I worked those problems independently of each other so the fact that they are in near agreement is telling. I would like to find a combination length and radius that would give the frequency without the length being so close to 3/4 wavelength. In fact, I would like for the length to be exactly one wavelength and for which I knew the mode. TE 1,1,1 would be good, but TE 1,4,1 might also work. Maybe now that I have found one solution, I can find more solutions.

Well, we disagree.  The correct solution for the geometry you input

aeroMeepLength = 0.1223642686 meters
aeroMeepDiameter = 0.0754898000 meters

at TE111 is 2.63 Ghz, I agree with Mulletron. (Mulletron  2.63018 Ghz, Rodal 2.62937 GHz)  Also, you should have quite a lot of frequencies bunched up nearby TE111 at 2.63 Ghz.  It is incorrect to get only one frequency and very far away at 1.87 GHz instead of 2.63 Ghz.

Also, unless you input a finite tan delta (which I did not find in your writing), your Q should be extremely large (for tan delta=0, Q goes to infinity).  The Q's you report are very low.

____

At my next break  :) I will look into the m,n,p issue brought by Mulletron.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 08:46 PM by Rodal »

Offline aero

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My input frequency is converted to meep units in the control file, meep frequency =  0.08172320332354725. That is scaled by the 0.01 factor. But that is not an input. The input is frequency in SI units. The conversion is scale factor/c so I guess the units would be 1/meter internally.

It's difficult for me to come up with 8.77064 1/meters though. That is your 2.63 GHz number and I've not seen it in any of my meep runs that I recall.
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Offline Rodal

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My input frequency is converted to meep units in the control file, meep frequency =  0.08172320332354725. That is scaled by the 0.01 factor. But that is not an input. The input is frequency in SI units. The conversion is scale factor/c so I guess the units would be 1/meter internally.

It's difficult for me to come up with 8.77064 1/meters though. That is your 2.63 GHz number and I've not seen it in any of my meep runs that I recall.

1) It should be 0.0877064  1/centimeter Meep frequency units instead of 0.0817232.  For 

aeroMeepLength = 0.1223642686 meters
aeroMeepDiameter = 0.0754898000 meters

at TE111, since the frequency is 2.63 Ghz as Mulletron and I get.

2) You should run with your "scale factor" of 1 instead, for as long as that takes, and see what results you get.  If the scale factor of 1 results in a longer run, it means that your scale factor is getting mixed with the finite difference mesh discretization.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2015 09:38 PM by Rodal »

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