Author Topic: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-181  (Read 75784 times)

Offline baldusi

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #20 on: 11/01/2014 12:52 AM »
Or Orbital could obtain staged combustion engines RD-120 from Ukraine.
Ukraine has serial production of the engine and also had plans for its own launcher using it.
The US state Dept. had issued help for Ukraine so no issues there, maybe even some funding help.
Its a fine engine even China purchased some and tweeked it for the CZ-5.

Only problem might be the need for 4 engines (haven't run the numbers)
The mounting hw for 4 has been designed and/or manufactured
Ukraine has the RD-120 production line, the first stage version was the RD-120K, which is NPO Energomash. And the thrust of the RD-120K is just 784kN at sea level they would lose 4% of thrust, 1second of isp, have worst T/W, need new control logic and all piping, structure and TVC should weight less than 230kg or they will have a heavier Main Propulsion System.

Offline a_langwich

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #21 on: 11/01/2014 01:23 AM »
Besides the fact that they end up depending on Russian engines, and should relations sour again that would be a problem. Why not just opt to fly with atlas and save themselves the trouble?

How much would flying on Atlas cost them?  It may not make economic sense to do so.

Exactly.  Go to Atlas, and lose money each flight on the contract, all so they could avoid issues with Russian engines, which are also present on Atlas?  FF, you need to take your logic back to the garage and tinker on it a bit more.

IF they were planning to try using the RD-180 (and thus needed some negotiating power with ULA), and IF they wanted to hedge their return-to-flight bets, I could see them possibly launching one or two Cygnus on Atlas in the short term.  Or even offering the super-sized Cygnus on an Atlas if there were interest in putting the larger Cygnus in a farther orbit (L1/2 maybe?) than Antares 130 could handle.  That would be a nice business incentive for ULA to be accommodating, and it might provide a nice "assured access" second source LV for Cygnus customers, and it might open up one or two more opportunities for enhanced Cygnus customers.  (Big IF on the last one...lots of people talk, but few write checks from a bank account with that kind of money.)

But I doubt very much launching on Atlas makes any financial sense for Orbital in the long run, certainly not for CRS2.  The whole point of Antares was that the lower-cost segment of the Delta II market was poorly served by extremely expensive EELV launches.

Offline Danderman

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #22 on: 11/01/2014 01:29 AM »
Or Orbital could obtain staged combustion engines RD-120 from Ukraine.
Ukraine has serial production of the engine and also had plans for its own launcher using it.
The US state Dept. had issued help for Ukraine so no issues there, maybe even some funding help.
Its a fine engine even China purchased some and tweeked it for the CZ-5.

Only problem might be the need for 4 engines (haven't run the numbers)
The mounting hw for 4 has been designed and/or manufactured
Ukraine has the RD-120 production line, the first stage version was the RD-120K, which is NPO Energomash. And the thrust of the RD-120K is just 784kN at sea level they would lose 4% of thrust, 1second of isp, have worst T/W, need new control logic and all piping, structure and TVC should weight less than 230kg or they will have a heavier Main Propulsion System.

Let me clarify that. Yuzmash has a license to build RD-120 as a second stage engine for Zenit. I am not if they are contractually allowed to build the engine for any other purpose.

Also, the sea level variant of RD-120, the "K" indeed does not exist in the Ukraine, although the modification to provide for sea level operation has been "marketed" by Yuzhnoye for many years, as part of their efforts to "sell" paper rockets.

The technical issues indeed are real - RD-120 is half the thrust of RD-191, and so four would be required. And it is not as advanced an engine as RD-191/193.

Orbital would have to significantly upgrade the 2nd stage to use RD-120 on the first stage.

Offline Danderman

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #23 on: 11/01/2014 01:31 AM »
How about this?

ESA is ending ATV production, so they are about to run afoul of the IGA in their contributions to ISS resources. So, how about launching Cygnus on Ariane for a bit?

Offline Patchouli

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #24 on: 11/01/2014 01:50 AM »
IMO they'd be better off killing antares and just buying flights on Atlas. But this just seems silly. One Russian design with questionable history fails, so we opt to use another Russian design with questionable history? I don't see this being viable or happening.

Anatres is lower cost then an Atlas V.

Let me clarify that. Yuzmash has a license to build RD-120 as a second stage engine for Zenit. I am not if they are contractually allowed to build the engine for any other purpose.

Also, the sea level variant of RD-120, the "K" indeed does not exist in the Ukraine, although the modification to provide for sea level operation has been "marketed" by Yuzhnoye for many years, as part of their efforts to "sell" paper rockets.

The technical issues indeed are real - RD-120 is half the thrust of RD-191, and so four would be required. And it is not as advanced an engine as RD-191/193.

Orbital would have to significantly upgrade the 2nd stage to use RD-120 on the first stage.
Four RD-120s should have slightly more thrust then the two AJ-33.
Might be able to increase the performance with modern controls so the loss may not be as great as it would seem at first.


How about this?

ESA is ending ATV production, so they are about to run afoul of the IGA in their contributions to ISS resources. So, how about launching Cygnus on Ariane for a bit?

It would be a massive overkill but I guess they could make some sorta super Cygnus to take advantage of such a powerful LV or maybe have it ride with second vehicle.
It's powerful enough that it could easily lift Cygnus and a CST-100 or DreamChaser at the same time though the payload interface would be an engineering challenge in it's own right.
Soyuz 2 probably would be a closer match.
« Last Edit: 11/01/2014 02:14 AM by Patchouli »

Online gongora

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #25 on: 11/01/2014 01:52 AM »
How about this?

ESA is ending ATV production, so they are about to run afoul of the IGA in their contributions to ISS resources. So, how about launching Cygnus on Ariane for a bit?

Didn't ESA agree with NASA to do the Orion service module instead of more ATV flights to ISS?  Plus Ariane is complete overkill for launching Cygnus.

I've been wondering, they said they lost $200 million of hardware.  If Antares is a fairly low cost launcher, then how the heck much does a Cygnus cost?
« Last Edit: 11/01/2014 01:56 AM by gongora »

Offline Oli

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #26 on: 11/01/2014 01:58 AM »

So is the RD-193 somehow different from the RD-151 used in the South Korean Naro-1 rocket?

But I doubt very much launching on Atlas makes any financial sense for Orbital in the long run, certainly not for CRS2.  The whole point of Antares was that the lower-cost segment of the Delta II market was poorly served by extremely expensive EELV launches.

Question is whether a few Antares incl. all related fixed costs are cheaper than a few additional Atlas V. Maybe they are.
« Last Edit: 11/01/2014 02:03 AM by Oli »

Offline Antares

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #27 on: 11/01/2014 02:04 AM »
150 family is derated 190 family.  Ones digit are variants for each application or which design improvements have been rolled in.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline asmi

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #28 on: 11/01/2014 01:18 PM »
Posters on NK calculated that the swap would increase payload capability by 800-1000 kg. And replacing existing second stage with liquid one would add another massive increase, almost doubling payload to orbit (they used Antares w/RD-193 + 3rd stage of Soyuz 2.1b instead of existing second for calculations) to 10 mT.
No wonder Orbital were attempting to get their hands on RD-0124...

Offline simonbp

Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #29 on: 11/01/2014 02:13 PM »
Is there any source for this that isn't Russian state media or wishful thinking on NK?

Offline Prober

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #30 on: 11/01/2014 02:53 PM »
Or Orbital could obtain staged combustion engines RD-120 from Ukraine.
Ukraine has serial production of the engine and also had plans for its own launcher using it.
The US state Dept. had issued help for Ukraine so no issues there, maybe even some funding help.
Its a fine engine even China purchased some and tweeked it for the CZ-5.

Only problem might be the need for 4 engines (haven't run the numbers)
The mounting hw for 4 has been designed and/or manufactured
Ukraine has the RD-120 production line, the first stage version was the RD-120K, which is NPO Energomash. And the thrust of the RD-120K is just 784kN at sea level they would lose 4% of thrust, 1second of isp, have worst T/W, need new control logic and all piping, structure and TVC should weight less than 230kg or they will have a heavier Main Propulsion System.

Let me clarify that. Yuzmash has a license to build RD-120 as a second stage engine for Zenit. I am not if they are contractually allowed to build the engine for any other purpose.


My post was in response to Jim's comments that tend to make me think/react (a good thing)  ;)

"No, I did not. Again, you are jumping to the wrong conclusion. There are not flight ready engines available.  Who the heck do you think picked this engine?  It was Orbital management."

if Orbital gets creative there are other opportunities.
« Last Edit: 11/01/2014 03:18 PM by Prober »
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Offline Prober

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #31 on: 11/01/2014 02:57 PM »
How about this?

ESA is ending ATV production, so they are about to run afoul of the IGA in their contributions to ISS resources. So, how about launching Cygnus on Ariane for a bit?

interesting but might be better posted in the other thread dealing with a quick launch, or two to keep the Orbital contract & ISS supplies going. 
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline baldusi

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #32 on: 11/01/2014 03:22 PM »
Posters on NK calculated that the swap would increase payload capability by 800-1000 kg. And replacing existing second stage with liquid one would add another massive increase, almost doubling payload to orbit (they used Antares w/RD-193 + 3rd stage of Soyuz 2.1b instead of existing second for calculations) to 10 mT.
No wonder Orbital were attempting to get their hands on RD-0124...
They might do a Castor XLA. And with an extra tonne to ISS they can do the Super Cygnus with 3.4tonnes of cargo. ISS will need 15 to 17tonnes per year. Three Dragon plus two Super Cygnus per year are 16tonnes or pressurized. That and two Commercial Crew will give downmass opportunities five times a year while assuring the cargo needs (Progress and HTV will continue).

Offline Prober

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #33 on: 11/01/2014 03:27 PM »
Some discussions in the Russian press about Orbital using the NPO Energomash RD-193 for a new Antares engine.

http://en.itar-tass.com/non-political/757591

not enough launch history.  Can't see this as a real fix.
It seems to be happening, if the quote of Orbital Sciences Vice-President for Public Relations Barron Beneski is correct.  There really is no other choice besides something from Energomash unless Orbital decides to fund its own engine. RD-193 is designed to replace NK-33, while being based on existing RD-170/180 technology and know how.  It will also eventually power Soyuz 2-1v.  Energomash has been test firing RD-193 since 2012.

 - Ed Kyle

Going to put my Business Opportunity hat on:

The ATK/Orbital merger opens up the Opportunity to permanently fix the engine problem for the Antares Delta II class launcher.

With Ukraine (RD-120K) as an engine partner;  ATK/Orbital has surplus manufacturing ability to cast, and produce their own staged combustion engine in the USA.  If the company wishes to add very advanced  manufacturing to the mix, they know where to find me.

ATK/Orbital could even tap into this funding to do the job.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34595.0


Edit: fix quote
« Last Edit: 11/01/2014 03:29 PM by Prober »
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Offline Jim

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #34 on: 11/01/2014 05:36 PM »

With Ukraine (RD-120K) as an engine partner;  ATK/Orbital has surplus manufacturing ability to cast, and produce their own staged combustion engine in the USA.  If the company wishes to add very advanced  manufacturing to the mix, they know where to find me.

ATK/Orbital could even tap into this funding to do the job.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34595.0


No, the Ukraine does not control the IP of the RD-120K and therefore cannot partner with others.

And no, they can not tap into that funding unless it is for the USAF.

Offline daveklingler

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #35 on: 11/01/2014 05:58 PM »
I apologize for being so far behind the times, but I'd thought until last week that the eventual path forward was the AJ-500.  I haven't been able to find much solid information on AJ-500/AJ-1000/AR-1??? this past year, so is that all just paper?

Offline Prober

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #36 on: 11/01/2014 06:02 PM »
I apologize for being so far behind the times, but I'd thought until last week that the eventual path forward was the AJ-500.  I haven't been able to find much solid information on AJ-500/AJ-1000/AR-1??? this past year, so is that all just paper?

your talking long term

this might be more short term thinking
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Offline dror

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #37 on: 11/01/2014 06:22 PM »
Besides the fact that they end up depending on Russian engines, and should relations sour again that would be a problem. Why not just opt to fly with atlasfalcon 9 and save themselves the trouble?

How much would flying on atlasfalcon 9 cost them?  It may not make economic sense to do so.
Here you go, now it makes sense.
They can even use the super enhanced cygnus on a F9 (can they?) for crs1 and do less missions (4 instead of 5) for less $ each (compared to Atlas, I don't know the price of Antares). It's not like spacex won't work with orbital.
Of course that's for the short term only.
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Offline Patchouli

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #38 on: 11/01/2014 06:32 PM »
Posters on NK calculated that the swap would increase payload capability by 800-1000 kg. And replacing existing second stage with liquid one would add another massive increase, almost doubling payload to orbit (they used Antares w/RD-193 + 3rd stage of Soyuz 2.1b instead of existing second for calculations) to 10 mT.
No wonder Orbital were attempting to get their hands on RD-0124...

I wonder if a Methane upper stage could offer even better performance as there are a few engines they could use such as the  XR-5M15 probably would need four of them and the Chase-10 probably could use just one or two depending on the mission since it's in the same thrust class as the RL-10.
Though Xcor probably could design a new engine to the specs they may need so clustering would be unnecessary.

The performance of either engines probably can be improved significantly with additions like nozzle extensions as on the RL-10B.

Maybe see if commonality can be had with the Startolaunch rocket.
« Last Edit: 11/01/2014 06:37 PM by Patchouli »

Offline mr. mark

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #39 on: 11/01/2014 06:41 PM »
Wouldn't it just be easier to go with a solid ATK first stage? They are already using or will use a ATK 30XL for the second. ATK has a good track record.

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