Author Topic: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-181  (Read 79213 times)

Offline LOXRP1

  • Member
  • Posts: 9
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 0
New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-181
« on: 10/31/2014 03:59 PM »
Some discussions in the Russian press about Orbital using the NPO Energomash RD-193 for a new Antares engine.


http://en.itar-tass.com/non-political/757591

« Last Edit: 05/31/2015 07:26 PM by Satori »

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10313
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 701
  • Likes Given: 728
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #1 on: 10/31/2014 05:48 PM »
Some discussions in the Russian press about Orbital using the NPO Energomash RD-193 for a new Antares engine.


http://en.itar-tass.com/non-political/757591

not enough launch history.  Can't see this as a real fix.
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32425
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 11164
  • Likes Given: 331
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #2 on: 10/31/2014 05:54 PM »

not enough launch history.  Can't see this as a real fix.

Huh?  Launch history is not a requirement.  The AJ-26 had no launch history before Antares flew for the first time.  The RD-180 didn't have launch history before the first Atlas III launch.

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10313
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 701
  • Likes Given: 728
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #3 on: 10/31/2014 06:23 PM »

not enough launch history.  Can't see this as a real fix.

Huh?  Launch history is not a requirement.  The AJ-26 had no launch history before Antares flew for the first time.  The RD-180 didn't have launch history before the first Atlas III launch.

You made my point Jim....don't think Orbital management wants another low launch history engine.   Orbital is not ULA, IMHO they would prefer the RD-180 if they must upgrade.
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline edkyle99

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12877
    • Space Launch Report
  • Liked: 3934
  • Likes Given: 752
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #4 on: 10/31/2014 06:23 PM »
Some discussions in the Russian press about Orbital using the NPO Energomash RD-193 for a new Antares engine.

http://en.itar-tass.com/non-political/757591

not enough launch history.  Can't see this as a real fix.
It seems to be happening, if the quote of Orbital Sciences Vice-President for Public Relations Barron Beneski is correct.  There really is no other choice besides something from Energomash unless Orbital decides to fund its own engine.  RD-193 is designed to replace NK-33, while being based on existing RD-170/180 technology and know how.  It will also eventually power Soyuz 2-1v.  Energomash has been test firing RD-193 since 2012.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 10/31/2014 06:28 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10313
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 701
  • Likes Given: 728
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #5 on: 10/31/2014 06:29 PM »
Some discussions in the Russian press about Orbital using the NPO Energomash RD-193 for a new Antares engine.

http://en.itar-tass.com/non-political/757591

not enough launch history.  Can't see this as a real fix.
It seems to be happening, if the quote of Orbital Sciences Vice-President for Public Relations Barron Beneski is correct.  There really is no other choice besides something from Energomash unless Orbital decides to fund its own engine.  RD-193 is designed to replace NK-33, while being based on existing RD-170/180 technology and know how.  It will also eventually power Soyuz 2-1v.  Energomash has been test firing RD-193 since 2012.

 - Ed Kyle

something has changed last two days then.  Frank was talking the other direction.
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32425
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 11164
  • Likes Given: 331
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #6 on: 10/31/2014 07:13 PM »

You made my point Jim....don't think Orbital management wants another low launch history engine.   Orbital is not ULA, IMHO they would prefer the RD-180 if they must upgrade.

No, I did not. Again, you are jumping to the wrong conclusion.  There are not flight ready engines available.  Who the heck do you think picked this engine?  It was Orbital management.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32425
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 11164
  • Likes Given: 331
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #7 on: 10/31/2014 07:14 PM »
something has changed last two days then.  Frank was talking the other direction.


No, he was talking about return to flight and not long range plans.

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10313
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 701
  • Likes Given: 728
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #8 on: 10/31/2014 07:19 PM »

You made my point Jim....don't think Orbital management wants another low launch history engine.   Orbital is not ULA, IMHO they would prefer the RD-180 if they must upgrade.

No, I did not. Again, you are jumping to the wrong conclusion.  There are not flight ready engines available.  Who the heck do you think picked this engine?  It was Orbital management.

I looked for the video of Frank is part of management Jim couldn't find it again......but things happen in two days.  just not up to date :o


 
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9627
  • Liked: 362
  • Likes Given: 464
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #9 on: 10/31/2014 07:25 PM »
I suspect that integrating RD-180 with Antares would be more difficult than RD-193, due to the one engine vs two engines issue.

Offline FinalFrontier

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3987
  • Space Watcher
  • Liked: 418
  • Likes Given: 158
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #10 on: 10/31/2014 07:27 PM »
IMO they'd be better off killing antares and just buying flights on Atlas. But this just seems silly. One Russian design with questionable history fails, so we opt to use another Russian design with questionable history? I don't see this being viable or happening.
3-30-2017: The start of a great future
"Live Long and Prosper"

Offline gongora

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
  • US
  • Liked: 3132
  • Likes Given: 1842
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #11 on: 10/31/2014 07:31 PM »
Why is the RD-193 "questionable"?  It's a new engine by the same company that makes the very reliable RD-180, it's designed specifically to replace the current engine on Antares, and it's derived from an existing line of engines.  Not really the same situation as AJ-26.

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7437
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 1446
  • Likes Given: 4499
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #12 on: 10/31/2014 07:34 PM »
I suspect that integrating RD-180 with Antares would be more difficult than RD-193, due to the one engine vs two engines issue.
Actually, looking at the Main Engine System, it has a single drop for propellant and a single point for fill drain. As it looks, they have made a sort of module that, for all effects and purposes, is a single engine.

Offline FinalFrontier

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3987
  • Space Watcher
  • Liked: 418
  • Likes Given: 158
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #13 on: 10/31/2014 07:36 PM »
Why is the RD-193 "questionable"?  It's a new engine by the same company that makes the very reliable RD-180, it's designed specifically to replace the current engine on Antares, and it's derived from an existing line of engines.  Not really the same situation as AJ-26.
No flight history. I know Jim has and will argue against me on that. However, flight history or the lack there-of was the leading argument used against Spacex, and other startups in recent years, an argument which I believe has substantial bearing.

Besides the fact that they end up depending on Russian engines, and should relations sour again that would be a problem. Why not just opt to fly with atlas and save themselves the trouble?
3-30-2017: The start of a great future
"Live Long and Prosper"

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10313
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 701
  • Likes Given: 728
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #14 on: 10/31/2014 07:51 PM »
I suspect that integrating RD-180 with Antares would be more difficult than RD-193, due to the one engine vs two engines issue.

your getting into the drop in replacement claim.

 
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10313
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 701
  • Likes Given: 728
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #15 on: 10/31/2014 07:57 PM »
Why is the RD-193 "questionable"?  It's a new engine by the same company that makes the very reliable RD-180, it's designed specifically to replace the current engine on Antares, and it's derived from an existing line of engines.  Not really the same situation as AJ-26.

big differences who does Orbital go for support?
AJ-26 AR
RD-180 RD AMROSS
RD-193  ???

2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline rayleighscatter

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Maryland
  • Liked: 480
  • Likes Given: 228
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #16 on: 10/31/2014 07:59 PM »
Besides the fact that they end up depending on Russian engines, and should relations sour again that would be a problem. Why not just opt to fly with atlas and save themselves the trouble?
Switch to Atlas to avoid relying on Russian engines?

big differences who does Orbital go for support?
AJ-26 AR
RD-180 RD AMROSS
RD-193  ???
Orbital wouldn't get any support from RD AMROSS if they selected the RD-180, they were negotiating directly with NPO Energomash
« Last Edit: 10/31/2014 08:01 PM by rayleighscatter »

Offline gongora

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
  • US
  • Liked: 3132
  • Likes Given: 1842
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #17 on: 10/31/2014 08:00 PM »
Besides the fact that they end up depending on Russian engines, and should relations sour again that would be a problem. Why not just opt to fly with atlas and save themselves the trouble?

How much would flying on Atlas cost them?  It may not make economic sense to do so.

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10313
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 701
  • Likes Given: 728
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #18 on: 10/31/2014 11:30 PM »
Or Orbital could obtain staged combustion engines RD-120 from Ukraine.
Ukraine has serial production of the engine and also had plans for its own launcher using it.
The US state Dept. had issued help for Ukraine so no issues there, maybe even some funding help.
Its a fine engine even China purchased some and tweeked it for the CZ-5.

Only problem might be the need for 4 engines (haven't run the numbers)
The mounting hw for 4 has been designed and/or manufactured
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline SIEP

  • Member
  • Posts: 7
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #19 on: 11/01/2014 12:45 AM »
It isn't the RD-120 made also by Energomash? ::)

In any case, I don't understand how political responses like gospacex's (#18) are allowed.

Tags: