Author Topic: Modelling Mars  (Read 122635 times)

Offline Archibald

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #220 on: 02/23/2015 06:27 AM »
A rough idea of what was (and was not) known is Greeley's Mars landing site catalog (1990).  See http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900018291.pdf  Note that Mangala (which isn't considered that exciting now) gets no less than three mentions (sites 27, 38 and 39). 



And it loks as if Mangala valles was considered as a potential landing site for Mars Surveyor 2001 (Mars Polar Lander ill-fated twin brother that was stored in 2000 and later returned as Phoenix in 2007).
Mangala unfortunately was not selected (anyway, Dalhousie, why isn't Mangala considered exciting nowadays ?)

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20000112986.pdf

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #221 on: 02/23/2015 08:08 AM »
A rough idea of what was (and was not) known is Greeley's Mars landing site catalog (1990).  See http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900018291.pdf  Note that Mangala (which isn't considered that exciting now) gets no less than three mentions (sites 27, 38 and 39). 



And it loks as if Mangala valles was considered as a potential landing site for Mars Surveyor 2001 (Mars Polar Lander ill-fated twin brother that was stored in 2000 and later returned as Phoenix in 2007).
Mangala unfortunately was not selected (anyway, Dalhousie, why isn't Mangala considered exciting nowadays ?)

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20000112986.pdf

Good question, Mangala is still a very interesting place, it is just that interests are now more refined.  Mangala was chosen because it is an outflow channel and studying it would give us an idea about the history of liquid water on Mars.  Much the same reasoning was chosen for the Ares Vallis landing site for Mars Pathfinder in 1996.

We know much more about Mars now than in 1984 (or 1998, when the 2001 lander mission was being considered).  Now sites are being targeted because they contain mineral and potentially chemical records of water activity on early Mars, not just gross morphology of water activity.  We are also now interested in sites with good organic preservation, or even that are potentially habitable. Mangla isn't that interesting for these reasons.

In 1984 there were no instruments that could map Mars mineralogy from orbit and even in 1998 very few (some data from ISM on Phobos 2, there was also TES on Mars Global Surveyor, an instrument that could be best described as almost useless).

For an Ares type mission today we would land somewhere like Gale.  We did not have the knowledge to pick Gale in the novel's scenario (or even in real life until after 2001).  All IMHO of course!

Hope this helps.





"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #222 on: 02/23/2015 11:59 AM »
Talking with Mike last night, I am assuming the Mariner sent to Mars in the 1975 Viking window would basically have the same resolution as the Viking orbiter.  It concentrated on equatorial areas for landings sites. So, if you want to see what York and NASA knew of Mars before they went, look at those photos.  It is also possible they got photos from the Soviets.

But York wanted Mangala, she was part of the team that chose it. And she influenced the choice.

(I almost feel like this actually happened, the more we discuss it!)


Offline Archibald

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #223 on: 02/23/2015 01:38 PM »
More on Mangala Valles as seen by Viking (or, in that timeline, Mariner 10  :P )
https://www.google.fr/search?q=%22mangala+valles%22%22viking%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=IDvrVKCYBqaY7gbFpIFI#q=%22mangala+valles%22viking

A recurrent critic against Voyage is that parts of it were ripped off from (our universe) existing documents (I personaly think Baxter did it on purpose to make his alt-history closer from our universe)

A spectacular example... (Erosion by catastrophic floods on Mars and Earth)
Google search
https://www.google.fr/search?q=%22The+large+Martian+channels,+especially+Kasei,+Ares,+Tiu,+Simud,+and+Mangala+Valles%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Oj_rVJmLK9LhaOysgcgM
Bring this
https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70009751
and this
http://www.rulit.me/books/voyage-read-172472-39.html

Natalie work can be read here
http://www.mars.asu.edu/christensen/classdocs/Baker_ErrosionbyCata_icarus_74.pdf

 ;D

(In fact I "sampled" Voyage many times and found other examples like this. For example the scarying, cold medical description of poor Ben Priest radiation poisoning is a rip off of a real-world medical example  :o except the poor shmo survived its injuries. I found the medical record on google book.)

EDIT: it was a book on Chernobyl.  :(  Ben Priest medical condition is in fact a mix of two unfortunate "liquidators"
https://www.google.fr/webhp?ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=8ULrVKLEL8GY7gavyoBA#q=%22nauseated,+chilled,+and+agitated,+with+glassy+eyes%22&tbm=bks
« Last Edit: 02/23/2015 02:20 PM by Archibald »

Online mike robel

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #224 on: 02/23/2015 05:05 PM »
Yes, the book is full of stuff like that.

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #225 on: 02/23/2015 06:17 PM »
Yep, when you read alternate history that includes real people and situations from the real world, it makes it seam more plausible.  Otherwise, it becomes science fiction. 

That is why I can build these models using existing models, they are based in reality.  Mangala was looked at for a landing site, so it makes sense to land there.  Priest's wounds are based on real radiation wounds, so it seams much more believable, and tragic.

I hope to have the tanker ready tonight to photograph and add to a launch pad.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #226 on: 02/23/2015 06:32 PM »
...Mangala was chosen because it is an outflow channel and studying it would give us an idea about the history of liquid water on Mars.  Much the same reasoning was chosen for the Ares Vallis landing site for Mars Pathfinder in 1996.

And, just as an aside, the same reasoning also applied to the selection of the Chryse landing site for the Viking 1 lander.  The Chryse and Ares Vallis outflow channels are related -- if you look closely at the maps, you can convince yourself that both were made by the same catastrophic flood event.  Separate lobes of the catastrophic flood waters, so to speak.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #227 on: 02/23/2015 07:11 PM »
Talking with Mike last night, I am assuming the Mariner sent to Mars in the 1975 Viking window would basically have the same resolution as the Viking orbiter.  It concentrated on equatorial areas for landings sites. So, if you want to see what York and NASA knew of Mars before they went, look at those photos.  It is also possible they got photos from the Soviets.

But York wanted Mangala, she was part of the team that chose it. And she influenced the choice.

(I almost feel like this actually happened, the more we discuss it!)

I don't think Viking really got imagery of sufficient resolution to meet the requirements  of a landing, the best was a few 10s of metres.  I have assumed that the high resolution Mariner was much better, which in that time frame may have required film return (this was discussed in the literature, as I recall) 

The book does describe Soviet Mars lander data, I would assume there was matching orbiters as well.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Online tea monster

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #228 on: 02/23/2015 09:40 PM »
The graphics look very good for Orbiter.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #229 on: 02/23/2015 11:01 PM »
...Mangala was chosen because it is an outflow channel and studying it would give us an idea about the history of liquid water on Mars.  Much the same reasoning was chosen for the Ares Vallis landing site for Mars Pathfinder in 1996.

And, just as an aside, the same reasoning also applied to the selection of the Chryse landing site for the Viking 1 lander.  The Chryse and Ares Vallis outflow channels are related -- if you look closely at the maps, you can convince yourself that both were made by the same catastrophic flood event.  Separate lobes of the catastrophic flood waters, so to speak.

Although there is no obvious fluvial modification at the Viking 1 site, unlike the at Pathfinder, either in orbital or lander scale imagery. If anything the Viking 1 site looks more volcanic, with possible mare-like wrinkle ridges (although such features over compressional faults can form in any material). The closest outflow channels to the Viking 1 site is Maja Vallis about 80 km to the SW,  Ares Vallis is more than 800 km to the ESE, so theb two outflow systems appear un-related.
« Last Edit: 02/24/2015 03:50 AM by Dalhousie »
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #230 on: 02/24/2015 02:58 AM »
February, 23, 1985, the final tanker rolls out to LC39B.  It will launch in two weeks.  The Ares will rollout a few weeks later.

Online mike robel

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #231 on: 02/24/2015 03:03 AM »
Way cool looking Ron.  the pace quickens...

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #232 on: 02/24/2015 03:18 AM »
Late in February, 1985, the 3rd tanker seen in orbit, using it's radar to lock on to the Ares Booster in orbit. 
« Last Edit: 02/24/2015 09:11 PM by Ronpur50 »

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #233 on: 02/24/2015 03:43 AM »
A few orbits later, the tanker has docked with the Ares Booster and begins the transfer of fuel and oxidizer.  After the transfer is complete and the tanker undocks, it will burn up in the atmosphere.  Then the Ares stack will point it's nose towards the sun to reduce boil off and wait for the next tanker launch.

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #234 on: 02/24/2015 06:09 PM »
Three tankers on the pads ready for launch. 

Offline RichO

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #235 on: 02/24/2015 07:17 PM »
Man that's really cool lookin'
OMG, I finally discovered what's wrong with my brain: On the left side there's nothing right, and on the right side there's nothing left!

Online mike robel

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #236 on: 02/25/2015 01:46 AM »
While Ron's been working his photo magic, I was tring to flesh out the complete schedule of launches during the books span.  There were Skylab flights (37), Moonlab Flights (10), Apollo -N (+1 test flight not shown), and the various Ares launches (13), for a total of 61!

This is all based on statements in the book.

In 90 days, from 21 DEC 84 until the Ares 21 March 1985 launch, there were 9 launches of Saturn V's.  We think this is the longest the assembly sequence could take and not have boil off issues.  4 Pads, 3 mobile launchers, and 2 crawlers.  It would have been a herculean task. 

So here is a schedule I think does the job.

I bet there would have been some tired astronauts in the program.

we started with a total of 117.  During this time, 44 left the program.  The class of 1978 was sorely needed, but we did not recruit any classes after that.

we thought Moonlab 10 would be the last moonlab, while expecting there would be Skylabs launched until Ares return to Earth in NOV 86, so probably 5 more.

Online tea monster

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #237 on: 02/25/2015 06:44 AM »
I love the model shots. The lighting looks especially good.  How are you setting up your models for shooting?

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #238 on: 02/25/2015 11:50 AM »
Well, thanks!
It deepens on where I am putting the model.  If it is a launch pad, I set it up so the shadows match the actual Saturn V in the photo.  And take a photo from the same angle.  Since most are in daylight, I set it on a small table next to my patio doors and let the natural sun light it.   The space ones are just shot with over head lighting, since I have only put them in daylight orbit so far.  I don't have any fancy equipment light spot lights to do night shots on the pad yet, but I have wanted to do that.

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #239 on: 02/27/2015 12:49 AM »
Long range photo of SRB seperation from a Saturn VB.

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