Author Topic: Modelling Mars  (Read 122607 times)

Offline Archibald

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #200 on: 02/19/2015 12:22 PM »
Slight up date of the timeline, putting the Backup Skylab 2 Crew (Schweickart, Musgrave, McCandless) into Moonlab 4.  Also see up thread.

Edit:  Interesting enough, the back up crew for both Skylab 3 and 4 was Brand, Lenoir, Lind who we have flying Skylab 7.

Modeling the timeline and assignments is almost as much fun as building the models.  I wonder what Stephan Baxter would think of our work.  Any response Ron?



excellent !

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #201 on: 02/19/2015 12:29 PM »
I tried a different location, over a slight ridge, and tilted the MEM. I like this one better.

Edit:Added a flag for scale.
« Last Edit: 02/19/2015 12:38 PM by Ronpur50 »

Offline Archibald

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #202 on: 02/19/2015 01:42 PM »
Challenger in Endeavour crater.... the sweet irony !

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #203 on: 02/19/2015 01:48 PM »
Actually, this is Dalhousie's MEM and he named her Endeavour!

Offline tea monster

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #204 on: 02/19/2015 02:44 PM »
That is some nice work from you guys!

Just listened to the audio play and the last bit where she wonders what would have been if we'd stayed in Earth orbit and 'Challenger' was just another space shuttle... sigh.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #205 on: 02/19/2015 03:55 PM »
Actually, this is Dalhousie's MEM and he named her Endeavour!

Oops ! Massive brain fart...

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #206 on: 02/19/2015 05:33 PM »
I re-drew the mission profile from the front of the book.  This fits my models.
« Last Edit: 02/19/2015 05:33 PM by Ronpur50 »

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #207 on: 02/19/2015 06:31 PM »
From the descriptions on page 301, I came up with this assembly procedure for the Ares.  Mike is building an Orbital Assembly Facility, so my sketch is just a place holder.

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #208 on: 02/19/2015 10:41 PM »
This time I have a photo taken from the Moonlab of the approaching Soyuz in November 1980.
No models this time, just real photos and a quick manipulation.
« Last Edit: 02/19/2015 10:42 PM by Ronpur50 »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #209 on: 02/19/2015 11:12 PM »
Actually, this is Dalhousie's MEM and he named her Endeavour!

Oops ! Massive brain fart...

:)

It's also Gusev Crater (Columbia Hills).

Hey, it's Friday here, brain farts allowed!

:D
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #210 on: 02/21/2015 02:27 AM »
It is interesting to consider how little information of Mars existing prior to the Baxter mission.

In the story the preceding missions

Mariner V flyby (1965)

Mariner 6 & 7 flybys (1969)

Mariner 9 and Mars 2 & 3 orbiters (1971)

 Mars 5 orbiter (implied) (1971)

Mars 4, 6 & 7 flybys (implied) (1973)

Mars 8 lander (1976)

Mars 8 orbiter (implied) (1976)

High resolution imaging Mariner orbiter studying landing site candidates (possibly film return?)

Other possible Soviet missions (no mention of Mars 9 in 1976 so that may have been a failure) in the 1978 1980, and 1983 windows.

Challenger landed on Mars with far less knowledge of what to expect than the Apollo astronauts.



"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #211 on: 02/21/2015 02:58 AM »
It is interesting to consider how little information of Mars existing prior to the Baxter mission.

In the story the preceding missions

Mariner V flyby (1965)

Mariner 6 & 7 flybys (1969)

Mariner 9 and Mars 2 & 3 orbiters (1971)

 Mars 5 orbiter (implied) (1971)

Mars 4, 6 & 7 flybys (implied) (1973)

Mars 8 lander (1976)

Mars 8 orbiter (implied) (1976)

High resolution imaging Mariner orbiter studying landing site candidates (possibly film return?)

Other possible Soviet missions (no mention of Mars 9 in 1976 so that may have been a failure) in the 1978 1980, and 1983 windows.

Challenger landed on Mars with far less knowledge of what to expect than the Apollo astronauts.

Not only Mars, but the rest of the solar system.  No Pioneers or Voyager to the outer planets or even Viking to Mars.  I think Mariner 9 was the last mission mentioned for the US.  I doubt Mariner 10 went to Venus.  Everything was cancelled and the money put into Ares.

In fact, I think the only probe the US sent to Venus was launched by Ares on it's flyby.
« Last Edit: 02/21/2015 03:32 AM by Ronpur50 »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #212 on: 02/21/2015 05:57 AM »
It is interesting to consider how little information of Mars existing prior to the Baxter mission.

In the story the preceding missions

Mariner V flyby (1965)

Mariner 6 & 7 flybys (1969)

Mariner 9 and Mars 2 & 3 orbiters (1971)

That's correct.

Everything got cancelled to feed Ares.  Which is probably what would have happened.  But I find it hard to imagine that knowledge of the surface from one landing site (Mars 8) would have been deemed adequate.  I would have thought that Viking might have been re-jigged into several small landers to gain more experience of the surface, especially the engineering properties, bit like Surveyor.

 Mars 5 orbiter (implied) (1971)

Mars 4, 6 & 7 flybys (implied) (1973)

Mars 8 lander (1976)

Mars 8 orbiter (implied) (1976)

High resolution imaging Mariner orbiter studying landing site candidates (possibly film return?)

Other possible Soviet missions (no mention of Mars 9 in 1976 so that may have been a failure) in the 1978 1980, and 1983 windows.

Challenger landed on Mars with far less knowledge of what to expect than the Apollo astronauts.

Not only Mars, but the rest of the solar system.  No Pioneers or Voyager to the outer planets or even Viking to Mars.  I think Mariner 9 was the last mission mentioned for the US.  I doubt Mariner 10 went to Venus.  Everything was cancelled and the money put into Ares.

In fact, I think the only probe the US sent to Venus was launched by Ares on it's flyby.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #213 on: 02/21/2015 06:12 AM »
A rough idea of what was (and was not) known is Greeley's Mars landing site catalog (1990).  See http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900018291.pdf  Note that Mangala (which isn't considered that exciting now) gets no less than three mentions (sites 27, 38 and 39). 

"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #214 on: 02/21/2015 01:05 PM »
I did a quick read of the book, and during the 1975 launch window, when the Soviets sent their lander, it is mentioned that the US sent a Mariner to map landing site in the equatorial regions.  This must be an alternate Mariner 10 that went to Mars instead of Mercury and Venus,

Online mike robel

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #215 on: 02/21/2015 02:01 PM »
I submit there was a lot going on in NASA not mentioned in the book, or only in passing.  36 Skylab flights and 5 Moonlab flights costs a lot of money.

The lack of information about Mars recon flights is not surprising as they take 6 months to get there and are only launched every two years as opposed to 3-5 day trips and every two week windows.

The more I read the book, the more I like it, but it is not a complete history of the time.  It needs a chapter on unmanned reconnaissance missions, which we know Natalie would have been interested in.

And, of course, there are errors, like Dana's first flight was on Moonlab and his second was Apollo-N (which was preceded by at least one test flight and more likely two).

perhaps we need two new books:
Voyage:  Return and Beyond
Mars or Bust:  The History of NASA's Human Space Flight Program 1972 - 1986


Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #216 on: 02/21/2015 02:20 PM »
There may have been more Moonlab flights, since Stone mention them as ongoing during his discussion of food on Ares in 1985. "We are basically having much the same kind of food that the workshop crews, in lunar and Earth orbits, are eating right now."

this is at MET 4 days 21 hours.

So still more Saturn V have been launch in addition to the Saturn VBs.  At least one a year. I assume that each can bring logistics modules to the station.

Online mike robel

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #217 on: 02/21/2015 02:37 PM »
Yeah, that's certainly true, given Moonlab 5 was in 80, so one was probably launched in 1981, 1982, 1983, and early 1984.  But none from AUG 84 through MARCH 85 as the Ares campaign was hot and heavy.

After Ares launch, I think Skylab continues, because I think its mentioned that upon return to Earth Orbit, they could be rescued by a Skylab crew or go there, if they were unable to reenter with their own Apollo.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #218 on: 02/22/2015 10:38 AM »
Look at this !

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #219 on: 02/22/2015 12:01 PM »
Yep, seeing that video is what inspired me to re-read the book and start this project.  He has some difference, such as shuttle ETs, but it looks great. 

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