Author Topic: Modelling Mars  (Read 122935 times)

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #160 on: 02/14/2015 01:23 AM »
In the Apollo 13 scene, MIchaels is explaining how they reverted to Saturn IB wetlabs.  Its also stated in the book that Skylab 1 is damaged on ascent and Conrad and crew repair it, inferring that it was similar damage and remedy to the actual event.

In the scene where Jones, Priest, and Bleeker are told they are flying to the moon, they are told it will be a wet lab and that Apollo will drag the SIVB into lunar orbit and they will just do a minimum mission to begin the outfitting of the lab.

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #161 on: 02/14/2015 01:41 AM »
Stone would have been the dignified one I think.

Natalie would have been a crusader.  Gershon might be something like Gene Cernan, but he's pretty brash.

I cannot imagine trying to build that launch pad.

Offline Ronpur50

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Brandon, FL
  • Liked: 748
  • Likes Given: 1494
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #162 on: 02/14/2015 02:19 AM »
Here, then would be a decade of spaceflight, from 1971 to 1980.  Starting with Apollo 13 and ending with Apollo-N and Moonlab 5.  Assuming 3 Skylab sorties per year, early, mid and late.  Could a single Skylab have flown from 1973 to 1980?  I doubt it, so maybe one of those Saturn 1b flights could have been a second wetlab, Skylab C, since Skylab B became Moonlab.

I will reformat this later, and clean it up a bit.

And this actually uses up all of the original Saturn V procurement of 15.  The remaining flights would be Saturn VB.
« Last Edit: 02/14/2015 02:20 AM by Ronpur50 »

Offline Ronpur50

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Brandon, FL
  • Liked: 748
  • Likes Given: 1494
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #163 on: 02/14/2015 02:24 AM »
Mike, I just noticed your chart has Bleeker on Apollo N, it was Jones, Priest and Dana.

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #164 on: 02/14/2015 02:45 AM »
Fixed.  Added a note.  Multiple Skylab flights explains Bleeker getting dropped from Ares 1.

What was Stone doing all this time?

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #165 on: 02/14/2015 02:52 AM »
From Wikipedia, here is a map of LC-39 as conceived in 1963.

 

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #166 on: 02/14/2015 02:53 AM »
And now I'm thinking Jarvis as a successor to Saturn IB and Saturn VB.  After all, were not going to Mars anymore, are we?

And you could always make them a Tricore and put an HL-20 or 42 on top?
« Last Edit: 02/14/2015 02:57 AM by mike robel »

Offline MATTBLAK

  • Elite Veteran & 'J.A.F.A'
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3801
  • 'Space Cadets' Let us; UNITE!! (crickets chirping)
  • New Zealand
  • Liked: 738
  • Likes Given: 1395
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #167 on: 02/14/2015 03:08 AM »
Jarvis would have been a terrific booster! I still think it would be a good project now; using up the old F-1s first, then transitioning to the new 'F-1Bs' after that, with the J2-X on the second stage. Using Shuttle ET tooling and the leftover F-1s and J-2s; what's not to like? Upgrading those engines eventually and adding a set of Titan SRBS would have made a formidable heavy lifter - I would have liked it better than Shuttle C.

Although, in the Baxter Universe there was no Shuttle tooling and Mr Jarvis didn't get to perish on Challenger.
« Last Edit: 02/14/2015 03:10 AM by MATTBLAK »
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2073
  • Liked: 257
  • Likes Given: 310
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #168 on: 02/14/2015 04:51 AM »
Fixed.  Added a note.  Multiple Skylab flights explains Bleeker getting dropped from Ares 1.

What was Stone doing all this time?
As I recall the book does say he had less time in space than Bleeker.  He was at Moonlab during Apollo N.  Perhaps the rest of the time he was involved in development work, one of the astronauts that was constantly overlooked for mission assignments.  Were there not some Shuttle astronauts who served for many years by had few flights?
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #169 on: 02/14/2015 05:56 AM »
Corrected the Moonlab 1 and 5 Crews.

Moonlab 1:  Jones, Stone, Dana
Moonlab 5, Muldoon, Stone, Bleeker.

Added Crew for B Mission:  Stone, Bleeker, Curvel
Added Crew foe E-1 Mission:  UNK, UNK, Gershon, York
« Last Edit: 02/14/2015 06:09 AM by mike robel »

Offline tea monster

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Across the Universe
  • Liked: 106
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #170 on: 02/14/2015 06:48 AM »
Cool! How are you setting up your photo shoots?

Offline Ronpur50

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Brandon, FL
  • Liked: 748
  • Likes Given: 1494
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #171 on: 02/14/2015 11:39 AM »
For the photos, I just try to work out the angle that I need to photograph the model, either by reviewing what I want to replace in the NASA photo or by sketching out what I want in the orbital photos.  Then, set up the model, figure out shadows, if any, and take the picture.

I was just thinking this morning, wouldn't the Skylab need a second unmanned launch to take up the ATM since it would be based on the LEM?  Or would the initial unmanned launch be able to take up the ATM as well as the wet workshop.

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #172 on: 02/14/2015 01:18 PM »
I believe you are right.  The Apollo SM had to be shot fueled to enable the Saturn IB to lift it.

But also perhaps, they didn't use it in this timeline that was devoted to furthering Ares.

Offline Archibald

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Liked: 214
  • Likes Given: 585
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #173 on: 02/14/2015 08:08 PM »
That thread is amazing.

Quote
What happens after the Ares Return in November 1986?  More Skylab flights?  In support of what?

Well, don't forget that those americans who didn't go to Mars fought a conventional, deadly WWIII the same year - 1986.
What ?
Tom Clancy Red Storm Rising is another "alt history" with interesting things happening in summer 1986 - the moment when the Ares crew is returning to Earth.
Imagine Stone or Gershon figures as a teletype tell them about USS Nimitz nearly sunk by those pesky Soviets. To think they had flown around the Moon with them !

"The Ares crew is returning to a traumatized United States they won't recognize anymore."  :o

(yes, I red both novels at the same time, think it was 2007, which made for interessing crossovers)

Red Mars Rising !
« Last Edit: 02/14/2015 08:13 PM by Archibald »

Offline Ronpur50

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Brandon, FL
  • Liked: 748
  • Likes Given: 1494
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #174 on: 02/14/2015 10:01 PM »
Corrected the Moonlab 1 and 5 Crews.

Moonlab 1:  Jones, Stone, Dana
Moonlab 5, Muldoon, Stone, Bleeker.

Added Crew for B Mission:  Stone, Bleeker, Curvel
Added Crew foe E-1 Mission:  UNK, UNK, Gershon, York

I just realized that Dana was supposed to be a rookie on Apollo-N in 1980, but he also flew Moonlab-1 in 1976.  OOPS.

The second manned Skylab crew was all military, led by Ken Mattingly. 
« Last Edit: 02/14/2015 10:02 PM by Ronpur50 »

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #175 on: 02/15/2015 12:14 AM »
Re:  Mattingly.  Oh.  Yeah.  I don't think that in 1979 Skylab would have been able to supply any real significant information, but we can adjust and push the other crews back.

I'm also figuring out the Venus flyby, Mars Orbital Insertion date, landing date, first steps on Mars, Martian lift off, departure for earth, and insertion back into Earth Orbit and will post those soon.


Meanwhile, just to add to the goodness of the thread, here is another persons Voyage interpretation from Starship Modelers last contest. 

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/contest/scr_03.htm



Offline Ronpur50

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Brandon, FL
  • Liked: 748
  • Likes Given: 1494
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #176 on: 02/15/2015 12:15 AM »
I have found a reference to something called "Slush Hydrogen" as a propellant in an S-IVB stage variant, the S-IVC.  Most this study is beyond me, but it may be a solution to the boil off of fuel during the mission.

Offline Ronpur50

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • Brandon, FL
  • Liked: 748
  • Likes Given: 1494
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #177 on: 02/15/2015 02:34 AM »
I found this diagram of a MEM test in Earth Orbit.  I assume this would be similar to the test mentioned in the book.  Except the first did not land and the seconded manned mission landed.

So, now I have to decided which shroud would be used.  One would combine the SLA with the MEM Garage to be used on the flight (left).  The second is a new build that is more streamlined (right). 

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #178 on: 02/15/2015 02:35 AM »
As I was planning some more Saturn variant construction, it occurred to me the Wet Skylab would only have had a docking adapter on the front and no ATM, so it would have looked more like Apollo 5 then Skylab.  And also no Heat Sink, at least in the was of Skylab.

I have my MS-II launch vehicle somewhat pieced together, but using an Airfix Saturn V kit.  The Airfix S-II will be the MS-II with its more detailed insulation modeling setting it apart from the Revell S-II which will be the 2nd Stage.  I will be making a new Shapeways nose for the Airfix kit as the S-IVB Adapter is integral to the part.  Unlike my Ares stack, it will use Shuttle SRBs instead of Titan IIIM SRMs.

Then, as I discussed above, I will model the Wet Skylab Launch vehicle like Apollo 5 and sacrifice another S-IV to be the orbital Skylab.

Edit:  But Wait!  Attached a picture of a conceptual Wet Workshop which shows an ATM.  I still don't think a IB could have lifted this though...

EDIT:  But wait!  This looks is a different design, so for fun we can add another Saturn IB launch placing this in orbit, also carrying the secret Military stuff for Mattingly's mission.  So the new sequence could be Skylab 1, Wet Workshop Launch, Skylab 2, Conrad and crew, Skylab 3, ATP, Skylab 4; Mattingly, and move the others back accordingly.

What say you Ron?


You need a shot with the Ares Core, less the Mission Module, MEM, and Apollo stack loitering near it, possibly with one ET in place and the other nearby, and an Apollo CSM watching over the operation.

The LM-1 patch could be inspiration for the Unmanned MEM mission.
« Last Edit: 02/15/2015 03:18 AM by mike robel »

Online mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Modelling Mars
« Reply #179 on: 02/15/2015 02:44 AM »
I like the one on the left a little more, cause it is more streamlined.

Tags: