Author Topic: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights  (Read 101433 times)

Offline mme

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #200 on: 07/20/2014 09:44 PM »
...
How could they bid? Bids are due in August, but F9 won't be certified by the Air Force until some time next year. And the Air Force is not going to waste time evaluating a bid from an offeror who is not yet certified.
...

From: Air Force Magazine:
Quote
Alan Estevez, principal deputy under secretary of defense for acquisition, said the Air Force has certified SpaceX for some "lower risk" launches to gain experience and learn the Mission Assured Access requirements.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #201 on: 07/20/2014 09:50 PM »
...
How could they bid? Bids are due in August, but F9 won't be certified by the Air Force until some time next year. And the Air Force is not going to waste time evaluating a bid from an offeror who is not yet certified.
...

From: Air Force Magazine:
Quote
Alan Estevez, principal deputy under secretary of defense for acquisition, said the Air Force has certified SpaceX for some "lower risk" launches to gain experience and learn the Mission Assured Access requirements.

I doubt the Air Force will consider any NROL payload "lower risk."

Edit: By the way, someone with a crystal ball has already slated NROL-79 for an Atlas V 401:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NRO_Launches
though I highly doubt this person has any say in the matter
« Last Edit: 07/20/2014 10:00 PM by Kabloona »

Offline Jcc

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #202 on: 07/20/2014 09:55 PM »
...
How could they bid? Bids are due in August, but F9 won't be certified by the Air Force until some time next year. And the Air Force is not going to waste time evaluating a bid from an offeror who is not yet certified.
...

From: Air Force Magazine:
Quote
Alan Estevez, principal deputy under secretary of defense for acquisition, said the Air Force has certified SpaceX for some "lower risk" launches to gain experience and learn the Mission Assured Access requirements.

In particular, USAF has contracted for 1 F9 flight (DISCOVR) and 1 FH flight (STP-2). This was done before any of the 3 F9v1.1 certification flights.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #203 on: 07/20/2014 10:06 PM »
Yes, and both DISCOVR and STP-2 are relatively low-value payloads that few people will shed a tear over if lost. Those are the "low-risk" payloads; an NRO bird is not.
« Last Edit: 07/20/2014 10:07 PM by Kabloona »

Offline sdsds

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #204 on: 07/20/2014 10:41 PM »
By the way, someone with a crystal ball has already slated NROL-79 for an Atlas V 401:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NRO_Launches

Fixed. Suggest followup discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_NRO_Launches#NROL-79
-- sdsds --

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #205 on: 07/20/2014 11:55 PM »
By the way, someone with a crystal ball has already slated NROL-79 for an Atlas V 401:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NRO_Launches

Fixed. Suggest followup discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_NRO_Launches#NROL-79

Good. It does beg the question, though, how that person "knew" it would be the 401 configuration of Atlas. It does imply some knowledge of payload mass and destination.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2014 12:00 AM by Kabloona »

Offline ThereIWas3

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #206 on: 07/21/2014 01:02 AM »
I was under the impression that NASA money paid for some Dragon features specific to interfacing with ISS, such as the manual remote control unit, the LIDAR rendezvous system, etc.  No NASA money went the the Falcon.   Am I wrong on this?
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Offline baldusi

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #207 on: 07/21/2014 01:59 AM »

The US Gov officially released the RFP on July 15 for the launch of NROL-79. Perhaps SpaceX will compete for this? It will be interesting to see how this turns out.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=db6fc2f2c2149a12c65b9529655a33cd&tab=core&_cview=1

I couldn't find anything on mission requirements, i.e. mass and orbit. Can SpaceX bid on this one?


How could they bid? Bids are due in August, but F9 won't be certified by the Air Force until some time next year. And the Air Force is not going to waste time evaluating a bid from an offeror who is not yet certified.

And the vertical integration issue has been discussed here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27147.0
They can bid. They can't get awarded until such time as they are, indeed, certified. My guess is that since the certification date is unknown, USAF played it safe and actually made the bid. It will most probably go to ULA. First because by the award decision date is quite probable that Falcon 9 won't yet be certified. And second, because I assume this will have enough customizations that ULA could probably offer a better bid, given the broad arrange of customizations that they have already developed.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #208 on: 07/21/2014 02:27 AM »
I was under the impression that NASA money paid for some Dragon features specific to interfacing with ISS, such as the manual remote control unit, the LIDAR rendezvous system, etc.  No NASA money went the the Falcon.   Am I wrong on this?

COTS was money toward the whole system, Dragon and Falcon.

Online QuantumG

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #209 on: 07/21/2014 03:58 AM »
I was under the impression that NASA money paid for some Dragon features specific to interfacing with ISS, such as the manual remote control unit, the LIDAR rendezvous system, etc.  No NASA money went the the Falcon.   Am I wrong on this?

COTS was money toward the whole system, Dragon and Falcon.

How do you figure? All the milestones for COTS were for Dragon. SpaceX got paid when they completed the milestones.

Can you actually show us anything where SpaceX received money from NASA (or any government source) for Falcon development? .. because they say they never did.

If a government contractor reinvests their profits to buy ducks, that doesn't make them government ducks.

I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline Llian Rhydderch

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #210 on: 07/21/2014 04:08 AM »
I was under the impression that NASA money paid for some Dragon features specific to interfacing with ISS, such as the manual remote control unit, the LIDAR rendezvous system, etc.  No NASA money went the the Falcon.   Am I wrong on this?

COTS was money toward the whole system, Dragon and Falcon.

Wrong.  Unsubstantiated.
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #211 on: 07/21/2014 04:13 AM »

How do you figure? All the milestones for COTS were for Dragon. SpaceX got paid when they completed the milestones.

Can you actually show us anything where SpaceX received money from NASA (or any government source) for Falcon development? .. because they say they never did.

If a government contractor reinvests their profits to buy ducks, that doesn't make them government ducks.



No, the milestones were for Falcon also.    The design reviews included the Falcon. 

The first Demo flight was Falcon only .    edited , it wasn't COTS funded, but it doesn't change the argument and NASA did specifically fund an Antares demo. 

COTS was for launch vehicle and spacecraft. 
Same applies for Antares and Cygnus.  If NASA was only concerned about the spacecraft portion, then there would have been solutions with established launch vehicles. 

One of the objectives of COTS was to seed new launch vehicle development.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2014 04:21 AM by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #212 on: 07/21/2014 04:14 AM »
I was under the impression that NASA money paid for some Dragon features specific to interfacing with ISS, such as the manual remote control unit, the LIDAR rendezvous system, etc.  No NASA money went the the Falcon.   Am I wrong on this?

COTS was money toward the whole system, Dragon and Falcon.

Wrong.  Unsubstantiated.


As usual, you are wrong again.   You have to be able to back up statements like that.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2014 04:16 AM by Jim »

Online QuantumG

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #213 on: 07/21/2014 04:21 AM »
No, the milestones were for Falcon also.    The design reviews included the Falcon.

Huh? So what? We're talking about funding for Falcon development. There was none.

Quote from: Jim
The first Demo flight was Falcon only.

Falcon 9 flight 1 was completely funded by SpaceX. Falcon 9 flight 2 was COTS demo flight 1 and had the Dragon capsule on it which demonstrated maneuvering and reentry.
 
Quote from: Jim
COTS was for launch vehicle and spacecraft. 
Same applies for Antares and Cygnus.  If NASA was only concerned about the spacecraft portion, then there would have been solutions with established launch vehicles. 

One of the objectives of COTS was to seed new launch vehicle development.

So what? Your claim is that SpaceX received money for development of Falcon. Back that up with documentation please. You can't because there is none. SpaceX developed Falcon on their own dime so they could fly Dragon and other payloads.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2014 04:21 AM by QuantumG »
I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #214 on: 07/21/2014 04:23 AM »

So what? Your claim is that SpaceX received money for development of Falcon. Back that up with documentation please. You can't because there is none. SpaceX developed Falcon on their own dime so they could fly Dragon and other payloads.


Yes, COTS money was for both launch vehicle and spacecraft for all entrants (not just Spacex).
Look at the SAA, it is not specific to Dragon.  It is for the delivery system, LV and spacecraft.
So by definition, COTS partially funded Falcon 9

« Last Edit: 07/21/2014 04:24 AM by Jim »

Online QuantumG

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #215 on: 07/21/2014 04:28 AM »
Yes, COTS money was for both launch vehicle and spacecraft for all entrants (not just Spacex).
Look at the SAA, it is not specific to Dragon.  It is for the delivery system, LV and spacecraft.
So by definition, COTS partially funded Falcon 9

I'm not interested in your reinterpretations. SpaceX says they funded Falcon 9 entirely on their own dime. You're claiming you have evidence that isn't true. Show us or retract your claim. Next you'll be claiming NASA funded the truck SpaceX used to carry the Dragon to the cape. It's ridiculous.




I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline sublimemarsupial

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #216 on: 07/21/2014 04:29 AM »

How do you figure? All the milestones for COTS were for Dragon. SpaceX got paid when they completed the milestones.

Can you actually show us anything where SpaceX received money from NASA (or any government source) for Falcon development? .. because they say they never did.

If a government contractor reinvests their profits to buy ducks, that doesn't make them government ducks.



No, the milestones were for Falcon also.    The design reviews included the Falcon.  The first Demo flight was Falcon only. 

COTS was for launch vehicle and spacecraft. 
Same applies for Antares and Cygnus.  If NASA was only concerned about the spacecraft portion, then there would have been solutions with established launch vehicles. 

One of the objectives of COTS was to seed new launch vehicle development.

Falcon 9's first flight, which was Falcon only, was not part of COTS, and was paid for entirely by SpaceX. COTS Demo 1, which was the second F9 flight, was F9+Dragon, and was to test Dragon orbital maneuvering and reentry.

See list of SpaceX COTS milestones here:
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2011/06/01/spacex-milestone-progress-payments-delays/
« Last Edit: 07/21/2014 04:30 AM by sublimemarsupial »

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #217 on: 07/21/2014 04:41 AM »

I'm not interested in your reinterpretations. SpaceX says they funded Falcon 9 entirely on their own dime. You're claiming you have evidence that isn't true. Show us or retract your claim. Next you'll be claiming NASA funded the truck SpaceX used to carry the Dragon to the cape. It's ridiculous.


Not my interpretations but NASA's intent.  COTS money was provided to Spacex from NASA to fund space transportation system development.  The COTS milestones were based on the development of the integrated system (spacecraft and launch vehicle) and NASA got to see the data from both vehicles.  Whether Spacex choose to put all the money towards Dragon and not Falcon, is up to them, but that doesn't change the fact that COTS funding was intended for both

Spacex had even said development of the Falcon 9 would have be slower without COTS

Online QuantumG

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #218 on: 07/21/2014 04:48 AM »
Not my interpretations but NASA's intent.

I don't care if NASA's intent was to encourage space ducks to visit the sun, they didn't fund that.

Quote from: Jim
Spacex had even said development of the Falcon 9 would have be slower without COTS

Yes, as did having commercial customers for it, but it would be ridiculous for Orbcomm or MDA Corp or SES or Thaicom or Asiasat or the Turkmenistan National Space Agency or any other customer to claim that they funded development of Falcon 9.

Please retract your nonsense claim.

I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline swervin

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Re: SpaceX Release: Air Force Certifies Falcon 9 Flights
« Reply #219 on: 07/21/2014 04:50 AM »

If a government contractor reinvests their profits to buy ducks, that doesn't make them government ducks.

That's about the best argument I've seen in this topic. Also fellas, consider the fact that yes, money received from NASA obviously was used to continue SpX's own goals/objectives, which is how a free market works. Is NASA's CRS contract the main bread winner for SpX... Yes, to an extent, but they are starting to roll in the commercial launch contracts too. So, with or without COTS funds, would SpX have developed the Falcon launch system anyway? I suspect yes, albeit possibly at a slower rate, but in accordance with their states long term goals.

Yes, NASA paid them money for services. Copy...got it.

Splinter
« Last Edit: 07/21/2014 04:52 AM by swervin »

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