Author Topic: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family  (Read 16226 times)

Offline archipeppe68

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KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« on: 02/24/2014 07:45 AM »
Here there are my latest drawings about such interesting (ok, at least to me) topic.

Ciao
Giuseppe

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #1 on: 02/24/2014 01:12 PM »
I agree, very interesting and thank you!
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Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #2 on: 02/27/2014 08:00 AM »
I've updated all my drawings, since I wasn't satisfied about the GE RVs.
Here there are the new versions....

Ciao
Giuseppe

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #3 on: 02/27/2014 11:08 PM »
These are neat. Nice work.

Of course, you could also show them with the Russian (and Chinese) reconnaissance satellites. But I think that the Russians had a lot more variants.

Offline brahmanknight

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #4 on: 02/28/2014 12:35 AM »
I'd love to see the Russian ones, as well, if that is feasible to do.

Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #5 on: 02/28/2014 07:06 AM »
These are neat. Nice work.

Of course, you could also show them with the Russian (and Chinese) reconnaissance satellites. But I think that the Russians had a lot more variants.

Thanks Blackstar.

I'm thinking about a Russian chart similiar to U.S. one, and I've a lot of reference stuff about it.
While on Chinese side I have very few references to exploit (my bad).

It would be nice to have (in future) a sort of "World Spysats Handbook" (possibly with my drawings....).

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #6 on: 02/28/2014 11:39 AM »
My only wish, (and will probably be years before it could happen) is that it would include the KH-11 late 80's upgrade, Lacross, FIA-R, and the canceled FIA-O satellites.

On the web there are some rough ground images of Lacrosse and an image of the Bus released by the NRO. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRO_Lacrosse.jpg  , http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/spy_satellites.html#Lacrosse-5 )

Still I think you do and did an excellent job!
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #7 on: 02/28/2014 01:01 PM »
My only wish, (and will probably be years before it could happen) is that it would include the KH-11 late 80's upgrade, Lacross, FIA-R, and the canceled FIA-O satellites.

On the web there are some rough ground images of Lacrosse and an image of the Bus released by the NRO. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRO_Lacrosse.jpg  , http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/spy_satellites.html#Lacrosse-5 )

Still I think you do and did an excellent job!

First of all many thanks for your appreciation.

It would be nice to include also later NRO projcets, but usually I base my job on solid ground, while with the latest satellites there is a lot of "guessing around" and not more.

The more recent NRO satellite I depicted is the KH-11 (extrapolating it from the HST) and still there was a lot of things that I had to guess rather than extract from solid data.

The only things we can really do is sit and wait for the next FOIA of NRO de-classified documents about the latest satelltites (as already happened for CORONA, GAMBIT and HEXAGON).

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #8 on: 02/28/2014 04:49 PM »
My only wish, (and will probably be years before it could happen) is that it would include the KH-11 late 80's upgrade, Lacross, FIA-R, and the canceled FIA-O satellites.

On the web there are some rough ground images of Lacrosse and an image of the Bus released by the NRO. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRO_Lacrosse.jpg  , http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/spy_satellites.html#Lacrosse-5 )

Still I think you do and did an excellent job!

First of all many thanks for your appreciation.

It would be nice to include also later NRO projcets, but usually I base my job on solid ground, while with the latest satellites there is a lot of "guessing around" and not more.

The more recent NRO satellite I depicted is the KH-11 (extrapolating it from the HST) and still there was a lot of things that I had to guess rather than extract from solid data.

The only things we can really do is sit and wait for the next FOIA of NRO de-classified documents about the latest satelltites (as already happened for CORONA, GAMBIT and HEXAGON).

Unfortunately, that will not happen for a long time. The way this seems to work is that they do not declassify anything until at least 25 years after the last one has stopped working. Because there are still variants of the KH-11 up there right now, even if they all stopped working today and the program was officially ended, the earliest you would see a substantial declassification of information would be 2039.

Now it is possible that this could change. It is simply a policy, not written in stone, and policies can change (there was a time when CORONA was never going to be declassified), but that's it for now.

But with a caveat... I have heard that there is the possibility of some more information becoming available on the 11 perhaps in the next few years. I am not holding my breath on it. But I'd also add that commercial remote sensing is now becoming so common, with people pushing cubesat imaging satellites out of the front porch of the ISS, that the requirement for secrecy, particularly for old systems, seems to be eroding.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #9 on: 02/28/2014 04:53 PM »
I'm thinking about a Russian chart similiar to U.S. one, and I've a lot of reference stuff about it.
While on Chinese side I have very few references to exploit (my bad).

It would be nice to have (in future) a sort of "World Spysats Handbook" (possibly with my drawings....).

What I would like to do, at least for the American ones, is develop a timeline for all the missions. I am going to play around with some timeline software to see if I can do this.

What it would show is each class of satellite (with a graphic image), and then the duration of each mission, over many decades. So it would look something like this:


KH-4 CORONA

--   --  -- --   -- --

KH-4A CORONA

                      --  --  --   --  -- --   -- --

KH-4B CORONA

                                                          -- -- -- --   --  -- --  -- --  --

KH-7 GAMBIT-1

    -- --   --  -- --   -- --   -- -- -- -- --  --   -- -- -- --


And so on.



Offline Star One

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KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #10 on: 03/02/2014 06:59 PM »
My only wish, (and will probably be years before it could happen) is that it would include the KH-11 late 80's upgrade, Lacross, FIA-R, and the canceled FIA-O satellites.

On the web there are some rough ground images of Lacrosse and an image of the Bus released by the NRO. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRO_Lacrosse.jpg  , http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/spy_satellites.html#Lacrosse-5 )

Still I think you do and did an excellent job!

First of all many thanks for your appreciation.

It would be nice to include also later NRO projcets, but usually I base my job on solid ground, while with the latest satellites there is a lot of "guessing around" and not more.

The more recent NRO satellite I depicted is the KH-11 (extrapolating it from the HST) and still there was a lot of things that I had to guess rather than extract from solid data.

The only things we can really do is sit and wait for the next FOIA of NRO de-classified documents about the latest satelltites (as already happened for CORONA, GAMBIT and HEXAGON).

Unfortunately, that will not happen for a long time. The way this seems to work is that they do not declassify anything until at least 25 years after the last one has stopped working. Because there are still variants of the KH-11 up there right now, even if they all stopped working today and the program was officially ended, the earliest you would see a substantial declassification of information would be 2039.

Now it is possible that this could change. It is simply a policy, not written in stone, and policies can change (there was a time when CORONA was never going to be declassified), but that's it for now.

But with a caveat... I have heard that there is the possibility of some more information becoming available on the 11 perhaps in the next few years. I am not holding my breath on it. But I'd also add that commercial remote sensing is now becoming so common, with people pushing cubesat imaging satellites out of the front porch of the ISS, that the requirement for secrecy, particularly for old systems, seems to be eroding.

OP thanks for those images.

The KH-11 is such an old system now, it is something like forty years old I would hope your prediction might well prove to be correct. If we look at aviation, secret photo reconnaissance aircraft have been declassified whilst still in use and being upgraded.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2014 07:00 PM by Star One »

Offline Skyrocket

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #11 on: 03/02/2014 11:05 PM »
I've updated all my drawings, since I wasn't satisfied about the GE RVs.
Here there are the new versions....

Ciao
Giuseppe

Hello Giuseppe,

i really like your charts, but i could not resist to do some nitpicking:

* Samos E-5 & E-6: used both an Agena-B, not an Agena-D as depicted
* KH-2 and KH-3: used Agena-B, not Agena-A as depicted
* KH-4 and KH-5 came both in two versions: with Agena-B and Agena-D
* KH-7 used the attached Agena-D only for the first few flights. Later flights separated from the Agena-D
* KH-8 came in several versions: first with only one RV and no solar panels, then 2 RV and no solar panels and finally 2 RV and solar panels.

best regards,
Gunter


Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #12 on: 03/03/2014 07:21 AM »
Dear Gunter,

many thanks for your tips, I appreciated them (because some infos are still missing to me) and I will update my job asap to implement them.

- I will correct SAMOS E-5 and E-6 with Agena-B
- Currently I'm working on the whole CORONA-ARGON-MURAL family and I realized that the first versions used Agena-rather than Agena-D, please hold on...
- KH-4 and KH-5, see above
- I didn't know that KH-7 jettisoned the Agena during its mission, I have one question about it: how KH-7 would end its lifetime and re-enter w/o a service module? Natural orbital decay?
- I know that KH-8 came in several different versions, I had to choose only one (the most representative, at least to me) for room reason. The chart will be too "full" and difficult to read if I put all the versions of each satellite togheter. In any case I willing to realize 3-views of each single version of each KH satellite.

I need only more references, please if you can provide me a complete list of each version (and how many RV and what Agena exploits) I will use to realize accurate drawing.

As usual, and this is for everyone who read me, comments - inputs - critics and everything could help me to improve my job are always welcomed.

Ciao
Giuseppe

I've updated all my drawings, since I wasn't satisfied about the GE RVs.
Here there are the new versions....

Ciao
Giuseppe

Hello Giuseppe,

i really like your charts, but i could not resist to do some nitpicking:

* Samos E-5 & E-6: used both an Agena-B, not an Agena-D as depicted
* KH-2 and KH-3: used Agena-B, not Agena-A as depicted
* KH-4 and KH-5 came both in two versions: with Agena-B and Agena-D
* KH-7 used the attached Agena-D only for the first few flights. Later flights separated from the Agena-D
* KH-8 came in several versions: first with only one RV and no solar panels, then 2 RV and no solar panels and finally 2 RV and solar panels.

best regards,
Gunter
« Last Edit: 03/03/2014 07:23 AM by archipeppe68 »

Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #13 on: 03/03/2014 07:22 AM »
I'm thinking about a Russian chart similiar to U.S. one, and I've a lot of reference stuff about it.
While on Chinese side I have very few references to exploit (my bad).

It would be nice to have (in future) a sort of "World Spysats Handbook" (possibly with my drawings....).

What I would like to do, at least for the American ones, is develop a timeline for all the missions. I am going to play around with some timeline software to see if I can do this.

What it would show is each class of satellite (with a graphic image), and then the duration of each mission, over many decades. So it would look something like this:


KH-4 CORONA

--   --  -- --   -- --

KH-4A CORONA

                      --  --  --   --  -- --   -- --

KH-4B CORONA

                                                          -- -- -- --   --  -- --  -- --  --

KH-7 GAMBIT-1

    -- --   --  -- --   -- --   -- -- -- -- --  --   -- -- -- --


And so on.

Dear Blackstar,

this is a nice idea I will start to work around it.

Ciao
Giuseppe

Offline Skyrocket

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #14 on: 03/03/2014 08:01 AM »
Dear Gunter,

many thanks for your tips, I appreciated them (because some infos are still missing to me) and I will update my job asap to implement them.

- I will correct SAMOS E-5 and E-6 with Agena-B
- Currently I'm working on the whole CORONA-ARGON-MURAL family and I realized that the first versions used Agena-rather than Agena-D, please hold on...
- KH-4 and KH-5, see above
- I didn't know that KH-7 jettisoned the Agena during its mission, I have one question about it: how KH-7 would end its lifetime and re-enter w/o a service module? Natural orbital decay?
- I know that KH-8 came in several different versions, I had to choose only one (the most representative, at least to me) for room reason. The chart will be too "full" and difficult to read if I put all the versions of each satellite togheter. In any case I willing to realize 3-views of each single version of each KH satellite.

I need only more references, please if you can provide me a complete list of each version (and how many RV and what Agena exploits) I will use to realize accurate drawing.

As usual, and this is for everyone who read me, comments - inputs - critics and everything could help me to improve my job are always welcomed.

Ciao
Giuseppe


Hello Giuseppe,
here are links to my website with lists of the different versions:

KH-1, Agena-A, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-1.htm
KH-2, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-2.htm
KH-2, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-3.htm
KH-4, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4_ab.htm
KH-4, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4_ad.htm
KH-4A, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4a.htm
KH-4B, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4b.htm
KH-5, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-5_ab.htm
KH-5, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-5_ad.htm
KH-6, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-6.htm
KH-7, (Agena-D), 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-7.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl1.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl2.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl3.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl4.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_dualmode.htm
« Last Edit: 03/03/2014 08:06 AM by Skyrocket »

Offline Star One

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KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #15 on: 03/03/2014 08:05 AM »
Thanks for those links. Like the site by the way, have used it for a while now.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2014 08:16 AM by Star One »

Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #16 on: 03/03/2014 08:10 AM »
Dear Gunter,

many thanks for your tips, I appreciated them (because some infos are still missing to me) and I will update my job asap to implement them.

- I will correct SAMOS E-5 and E-6 with Agena-B
- Currently I'm working on the whole CORONA-ARGON-MURAL family and I realized that the first versions used Agena-rather than Agena-D, please hold on...
- KH-4 and KH-5, see above
- I didn't know that KH-7 jettisoned the Agena during its mission, I have one question about it: how KH-7 would end its lifetime and re-enter w/o a service module? Natural orbital decay?
- I know that KH-8 came in several different versions, I had to choose only one (the most representative, at least to me) for room reason. The chart will be too "full" and difficult to read if I put all the versions of each satellite togheter. In any case I willing to realize 3-views of each single version of each KH satellite.

I need only more references, please if you can provide me a complete list of each version (and how many RV and what Agena exploits) I will use to realize accurate drawing.

As usual, and this is for everyone who read me, comments - inputs - critics and everything could help me to improve my job are always welcomed.

Ciao
Giuseppe


Hello Giuseppe,
here are links to my website with lists of the different versions:

KH-1, Agena-A, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-1.htm
KH-2, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-2.htm
KH-2, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-3.htm
KH-4, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4_ab.htm
KH-4, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4_ad.htm
KH-4A, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4a.htm
KH-4B, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4b.htm
KH-5, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-5_ab.htm
KH-5, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-5_ad.htm
KH-6, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-6.htm
KH-7, (Agena-D), 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-7.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl1.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl2.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl3.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl4.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_dualmode.htm

Many thanks for the detailed references Gunter.

I know your nice website for so long but I never explored all.... (my bad!)
If I understood well KH-7 OCS had some sort of its own re-entry engine(s) and it make sense of the Agena jettison.

Grazie
Giuseppe

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #17 on: 03/04/2014 01:49 AM »
I know in one of the KH-xx threads it was recently brought up a left over 70" f6.1 "space mirror" was converted to a telescope. Anywho, the upcoming April dead tree copy of Sky and Telescope has a short two page article on it. I don't know if this will  be available on line since I only get the dead tree version.

Not to give away any spoilers but it does mention the mirror weight, sounds like the mirror was figured before being declared surplus, and provides a few comments on the superb figure.

Of course we do not know where this mirror would have been used. Mol? KH-11? Which block? Misty? DSP? ???
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #18 on: 03/04/2014 03:00 AM »
I know in one of the KH-xx threads it was recently brought up a left over 70" f6.1 "space mirror" was converted to a telescope. Anywho, the upcoming April dead tree copy of Sky and Telescope has a short two page article on it. I don't know if this will  be available on line since I only get the dead tree version.

Not to give away any spoilers but it does mention the mirror weight, sounds like the mirror was figured before being declared surplus, and provides a few comments on the superb figure.

Of course we do not know where this mirror would have been used. Mol? KH-11? Which block? Misty? DSP? ???

It was for the 10/DORIAN, right? Essentially the same as the leftover DORIAN mirrors used for the MMT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi_Mirror_Telescope

"The MMT operated between 1979 and 1998 with 6 mirrors, each with a diameter of 1.8 meters, providing the equivalent gathering area of a 4.5-meter telescope, making it the third largest optical telescope in the world at the time of its dedication. It featured ambitious design innovations including its unusual optical design proposed by Aden Meinel, a co-rotating building and an altitude-azimuth mount."


There were six in the MMT (they're now in storage at the base of the mountain), and I think there's a mirror blank on display at a University of Arizona lobby. Where did this guy get his from?

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #19 on: 03/04/2014 11:46 AM »
I thought the original MMT mirrors where 72" not 70", so that would not be a perfect match.

What is very interesting to me is, when he obtained the mirror, it had already been figured. and it sounds to have a very good figure at that ;)

[Speculation Tag]
If the mirror figure was the figure for the program we have the program primary specs. Once we figure out what program. Of course we do not have the specs. on the secondary or if it used a secondary, so one can only speculate on the capabilities, focal length, resolution, field of view...
[/Speculation Tag]
« Last Edit: 03/04/2014 11:46 AM by kevin-rf »
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #20 on: 03/04/2014 02:08 PM »
I thought the original MMT mirrors where 72" not 70", so that would not be a perfect match.



Wikipedia, which is never wrong, says that the MMT mirrors were 1.8 meters. Google, which is never wrong, says that 1.8 meters is 70.8661 inches.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #21 on: 03/04/2014 02:23 PM »
Multiple old articles say MMT used pre-metric 72" mirrors, while the current article in S&T said this new telescope has a 70" mirror.

For instance:
https://www.mmto.org/node/6
http://siarchives.si.edu/research/videohistory_catalog9542.html
http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations/groundup/lesson/scopes/mmt/

That is a 2" difference and why I am saying the KH-10 DORIAN/MOL is not a perfect fit.

I will give you a small possible out, it was mentioned this mirror has chip on the edge, was a 72" mirror masked down to 70" and everyone is reporting the masked size?
« Last Edit: 03/04/2014 02:25 PM by kevin-rf »
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Offline RonM

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #22 on: 03/04/2014 03:07 PM »
I got the April issue of S&T in my hands an it says "70-inch (1.8-meter)" in the text.

1.8 meters is actually 70.866 inches. The author should have rounded up to 71 inch.

The MMT website says "1.8-m (72-inches)." Since the mirrors were made in the 1970s in the US, they probably really are 72 inches. Converting 72 inch to meters gives you 1.8288 meters. You would round that off to 1.8 meters.

http://www.mmto.org/node/6

In the quotes from Mike Clememts, the builder of the telescope, he never says the size.

So it looks like 70 inch or 72 inch issue is merely rounding error, including rounding down when the author should have rounded up.

I wish my fellow Americans would drop this US Customary Units foolishness and go SI metric like the rest of the civilized world. The math is simpler and no conversion factors are needed if you use MKS. For some strange reason, astronomers still use CGS. I mean really, ergs? Of course, I never complained to my professors and happily used CGS in class.

Another pet peeve of mine is when people say the US uses Imperial units. No it's, US Customary Units. There is a difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #23 on: 03/04/2014 06:08 PM »
I wish my fellow Americans would drop this US Customary Units foolishness and go SI metric like the rest of the civilized world.

Don't kid yourself, it's not that civilized.

« Last Edit: 03/04/2014 07:19 PM by Blackstar »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #24 on: 03/04/2014 07:02 PM »
Hey, what's 2" between friends...
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Offline Melt Run

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #25 on: 03/05/2014 04:10 PM »
I got the April issue of S&T in my hands an it says "70-inch (1.8-meter)" in the text.

1.8 meters is actually 70.866 inches. The author should have rounded up to 71 inch.

The MMT website says "1.8-m (72-inches)." Since the mirrors were made in the 1970s in the US, they probably really are 72 inches. Converting 72 inch to meters gives you 1.8288 meters. You would round that off to 1.8 meters.

http://www.mmto.org/node/6

In the quotes from Mike Clememts, the builder of the telescope, he never says the size.

So it looks like 70 inch or 72 inch issue is merely rounding error, including rounding down when the author should have rounded up.

I wish my fellow Americans would drop this US Customary Units foolishness and go SI metric like the rest of the civilized world. The math is simpler and no conversion factors are needed if you use MKS. For some strange reason, astronomers still use CGS. I mean really, ergs? Of course, I never complained to my professors and happily used CGS in class.

Another pet peeve of mine is when people say the US uses Imperial units. No it's, US Customary Units. There is a difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units
This is a classic case of picking nits.
The glass runs out to 72 inches, the bevel and figure roll off have a CA of 70.866 (more or less). With the chip it could be less. It is what it is, which is a post MOL left over.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #26 on: 03/05/2014 05:00 PM »
So, any chance the 70", f6.1, 10,700 mm focal length, slightly over corrected parabola is the original figure?

(Yes I used a comma instead of a dot as a bow to the uncivilized world ;) )
 
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Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #27 on: 03/06/2014 07:20 AM »
A small teaser of the ongoing job....

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #28 on: 03/06/2014 03:49 PM »
The human does nothing for me, how about one from baywatch ;)

Thanks for the cutaway view.
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #29 on: 03/06/2014 04:14 PM »
The human does nothing for me, how about one from baywatch ;)


Or one reading his phone...

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #30 on: 03/06/2014 06:27 PM »
Given the period, that should be a "reading his slide rule"!
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Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #31 on: 03/10/2014 12:04 PM »
Another spoiler, this time I worked (hard) around the Agena engine and the optics....

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #32 on: 03/10/2014 01:25 PM »
Very, Very nice, thankyou for sharing.
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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #33 on: 03/10/2014 02:00 PM »
Very, Very nice, thankyou for sharing.

Many thanks kevin for your appreciation, currently I'm trying to make my way across the various camera system (C, C-Prime, C-Triple Prime and Mural)....

Offline Star One

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #34 on: 03/10/2014 02:56 PM »
Thanks for your work on these illustrations.

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #35 on: 04/27/2014 02:35 AM »
I have had a hard time figuring out how the camera system in the Samos E-6 worked. There were two cameras, one forward, one aft. They were 36-inch focal length.

Looking at this cutaway image of the camera, I can sorta figure out the lens barrel. But at the upper right of the schematic is the film system. There must be a film platen in there. This was a panoramic camera, so it must have exposed a strip of film. But how?


Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #36 on: 04/27/2014 02:55 AM »
Newtonian?
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #37 on: 04/27/2014 03:17 AM »
Blackstar, this is a Wild <Censored> Guess (WAG). I could be completely off base. Do you have a better scan?

Edit: Second thought, this is completely wrong. I think the Newtonian is correct, (with maybe the "lens/corrector" in front of the diagonal ) feeding into a all optical equivalent of twister.

I see two small folding mirrors. It is possible to steer a beam with those two mirrors and take the rotation out without the KH-9 twister and air bars.

btw. I have finally had time to dig into "Meeting the Challenge", I am loving every page of it. 
« Last Edit: 04/27/2014 03:40 AM by kevin-rf »
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #38 on: 04/27/2014 03:55 AM »
WAG 2.0
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #39 on: 04/27/2014 04:05 AM »
Thanks. I'm going to have to forward that to Phil and see what he thinks.

The available images of the Samos variants are really disappointing. We have no photos of the actual E-1 camera, or the E-4, 5 or 6. We have drawings of the E-1, E-2 and E-5, and E-6, but the E-6 drawing is very confusing. I have no idea why there are no photos of the cameras themselves. Either that was an Air Force security thing, or they exist but have not been released because they're buried somewhere. It is possible that Kodak has them somewhere. I hope.

Offline RonM

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #41 on: 06/26/2014 10:04 PM »
Here you go. Costs of the GAMBIT and HEXAGON programs.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #42 on: 06/27/2014 12:33 AM »
So when you go on a per bucket cost the KH-8 cost roughly the same as the KH-7 and the KH-9 with it's much larger buckets cost twice as much.

Interesting, Any similar graphics for the KH-1 thru KH-4b?
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #43 on: 06/27/2014 02:24 AM »
So when you go on a per bucket cost the KH-8 cost roughly the same as the KH-7 and the KH-9 with it's much larger buckets cost twice as much.

And that's totally not the way to calculate it.

Offline catdlr

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #44 on: 06/27/2014 02:38 AM »
just to add to this thread to make complete.  Lot's of REDACTED portions.  Grainy.

GAMBIT - The Eye Of The Eagle

Uploaded on Feb 1, 2012

National Reconnaissance Office Declassified GAMBIT Video

Length: 52 min.


« Last Edit: 06/27/2014 02:38 AM by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #45 on: 06/27/2014 12:20 PM »
So when you go on a per bucket cost the KH-8 cost roughly the same as the KH-7 and the KH-9 with it's much larger buckets cost twice as much.

And that's totally not the way to calculate it.

;)

Other than the KH-8 was more capable than the KH-7 for twice the cost, but it returned twice as much film, so on the balance it really did cost the same. The KH-7 cost $650 million over four years, while the KH-8 flew for 18 years at a cost of $2.3 Billion. The KH-8 actually cost slightly less a year to operate, so was actually a "bargain".

To me, reading that graphic, while expensive these program costs did not spiral out of control during this time period. The cost spiral is something often implied of NRO programs. It really looks like the KH-7 thru KH-9 costs per image stayed pretty constant from 1963 - 1984.

I would imagine the KH-9's operating costs at ~$250 million a year took some swallowing, considering they replaced the KH-4/a/b which should have been cheaper.

Now it would be interesting to see how that figure changed with the later KH-11 program.
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #46 on: 06/27/2014 01:57 PM »
1-Other than the KH-8 was more capable than the KH-7 for twice the cost, but it returned twice as much film, so on the balance it really did cost the same. The KH-7 cost $650 million over four years, while the KH-8 flew for 18 years at a cost of $2.3 Billion. The KH-8 actually cost slightly less a year to operate, so was actually a "bargain".

2-To me, reading that graphic, while expensive these program costs did not spiral out of control during this time period. The cost spiral is something often implied of NRO programs. It really looks like the KH-7 thru KH-9 costs per image stayed pretty constant from 1963 - 1984.

3-I would imagine the KH-9's operating costs at ~$250 million a year took some swallowing, considering they replaced the KH-4/a/b which should have been cheaper.

1-How do you know that? How do you know if they normalized the budget figures so that they're all equivalent? (In other words, a 1961 dollar spent on the KH-7 is not same as a 1977 dollar spent on the KH-8.)

2-Unless you know the original projected cost and the final actual cost, how do you know that the costs did not "spiral"?

3-Calculate the area covered. Compare. In fact, all you've done is compare a few basic figures. What about cost per photograph? What about cost per intelligence value of each photograph? (In other words, a clear photo of a missile base is more valuable than a cloudy photo of a missile base.)

I also think that trying to apply those kind of metrics to this effort is rather dubious. If all you care about is cost, then it drives you to the lowest capability system. And if you're going for the lowest capability, then what are you missing? If World War III breaks out because you skimped too much on intelligence funding, is that a bargain? How much would World War III cost?

That's not to say that cost is unimportant, but it's certainly not the most important thing. You plan for costs, you balance your portfolio, but if you need the intelligence data, you need the intelligence data. You put in good program management to make sure that things stay on schedule and budget, but that's not the same thing as not doing something because it costs too much.

How much did MOL cost on a per-picture basis?


Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #47 on: 08/20/2014 11:43 PM »
Better version of Catching the End of an Era: Recovery of the Last GAMBIT and HEXAGON Film Buckets from Space, August–October 1984.

I posted this earlier. I will delete the earlier poor-quality version.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #48 on: 08/21/2014 01:36 AM »
Better version of Catching the End of an Era: Recovery of the Last GAMBIT and HEXAGON Film Buckets from Space, August–October 1984.

I posted this earlier. I will delete the earlier poor-quality version.
Thanks for posting that, I had missed it the first time. Well worth the read.
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #49 on: 10/26/2017 03:05 PM »
I'm going to drop this in several of the relevant reconnaissance satellite threads. Here is a link to a bunch of newly declassified documents from the NRO. Included in the latest batch are documents on the Film ReadOut GAMBIT (FROG), the HEXAGON camera system (and the HEXAGON Mapping Camera) and the MOL.

There are only a few FROG documents, but I am now thinking about writing an article about this program. The idea was to use the KH-8 and replace the reentry vehicles with a readout and scanning system. I have not yet seen any schematics of what this would have looked like, but it was the same concept used for Samos E-1/2 and Lunar Orbiter. Apparently this system would have used a laser, unlike the earlier ones that used a bright light (the first laser was invented in 1960).

FROG was proposed in 1966, but did not really get seriously looked at until around 1970/71, as an "interim" system for providing "near real-time" imagery before the KH-11 became available. Apparently NRO was more enthusiastic than either the CIA or the other members of the intelligence community, probably because the others thought it was not worthwhile to develop a system that would only be operational for a few years before it was replaced.

http://www.nro.gov/foia/declass/OtherReleases.html


Offline Archibald

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #50 on: 10/26/2017 03:53 PM »
Laser scanning system in the 60's. Quite a feat when you think about it.
« Last Edit: 10/26/2017 03:53 PM by Archibald »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #51 on: 10/26/2017 04:12 PM »
Laser scanning system in the 60's. Quite a feat when you think about it.

For space, too...

When did the first laser get used in space?

Offline gwiz

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #52 on: 10/26/2017 04:30 PM »
When did the first laser get used in space?
Gemini 7?

Offline Star One

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KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #53 on: 10/26/2017 11:17 PM »
Talking about declassification in general is this back & forth between the president & the intelligence agencies often what happens but normally it’s behind the scenes on topics like GAMBIT that don’t have the huge public interest of topics like JFK?
« Last Edit: 10/26/2017 11:17 PM by Star One »

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