Author Topic: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family  (Read 16173 times)

Offline archipeppe68

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KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« on: 02/24/2014 07:45 AM »
Here there are my latest drawings about such interesting (ok, at least to me) topic.

Ciao
Giuseppe

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #1 on: 02/24/2014 01:12 PM »
I agree, very interesting and thank you!
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Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #2 on: 02/27/2014 08:00 AM »
I've updated all my drawings, since I wasn't satisfied about the GE RVs.
Here there are the new versions....

Ciao
Giuseppe

Online Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #3 on: 02/27/2014 11:08 PM »
These are neat. Nice work.

Of course, you could also show them with the Russian (and Chinese) reconnaissance satellites. But I think that the Russians had a lot more variants.

Online brahmanknight

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #4 on: 02/28/2014 12:35 AM »
I'd love to see the Russian ones, as well, if that is feasible to do.

Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #5 on: 02/28/2014 07:06 AM »
These are neat. Nice work.

Of course, you could also show them with the Russian (and Chinese) reconnaissance satellites. But I think that the Russians had a lot more variants.

Thanks Blackstar.

I'm thinking about a Russian chart similiar to U.S. one, and I've a lot of reference stuff about it.
While on Chinese side I have very few references to exploit (my bad).

It would be nice to have (in future) a sort of "World Spysats Handbook" (possibly with my drawings....).

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #6 on: 02/28/2014 11:39 AM »
My only wish, (and will probably be years before it could happen) is that it would include the KH-11 late 80's upgrade, Lacross, FIA-R, and the canceled FIA-O satellites.

On the web there are some rough ground images of Lacrosse and an image of the Bus released by the NRO. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRO_Lacrosse.jpg  , http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/spy_satellites.html#Lacrosse-5 )

Still I think you do and did an excellent job!
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #7 on: 02/28/2014 01:01 PM »
My only wish, (and will probably be years before it could happen) is that it would include the KH-11 late 80's upgrade, Lacross, FIA-R, and the canceled FIA-O satellites.

On the web there are some rough ground images of Lacrosse and an image of the Bus released by the NRO. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRO_Lacrosse.jpg  , http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/spy_satellites.html#Lacrosse-5 )

Still I think you do and did an excellent job!

First of all many thanks for your appreciation.

It would be nice to include also later NRO projcets, but usually I base my job on solid ground, while with the latest satellites there is a lot of "guessing around" and not more.

The more recent NRO satellite I depicted is the KH-11 (extrapolating it from the HST) and still there was a lot of things that I had to guess rather than extract from solid data.

The only things we can really do is sit and wait for the next FOIA of NRO de-classified documents about the latest satelltites (as already happened for CORONA, GAMBIT and HEXAGON).

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #8 on: 02/28/2014 04:49 PM »
My only wish, (and will probably be years before it could happen) is that it would include the KH-11 late 80's upgrade, Lacross, FIA-R, and the canceled FIA-O satellites.

On the web there are some rough ground images of Lacrosse and an image of the Bus released by the NRO. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRO_Lacrosse.jpg  , http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/spy_satellites.html#Lacrosse-5 )

Still I think you do and did an excellent job!

First of all many thanks for your appreciation.

It would be nice to include also later NRO projcets, but usually I base my job on solid ground, while with the latest satellites there is a lot of "guessing around" and not more.

The more recent NRO satellite I depicted is the KH-11 (extrapolating it from the HST) and still there was a lot of things that I had to guess rather than extract from solid data.

The only things we can really do is sit and wait for the next FOIA of NRO de-classified documents about the latest satelltites (as already happened for CORONA, GAMBIT and HEXAGON).

Unfortunately, that will not happen for a long time. The way this seems to work is that they do not declassify anything until at least 25 years after the last one has stopped working. Because there are still variants of the KH-11 up there right now, even if they all stopped working today and the program was officially ended, the earliest you would see a substantial declassification of information would be 2039.

Now it is possible that this could change. It is simply a policy, not written in stone, and policies can change (there was a time when CORONA was never going to be declassified), but that's it for now.

But with a caveat... I have heard that there is the possibility of some more information becoming available on the 11 perhaps in the next few years. I am not holding my breath on it. But I'd also add that commercial remote sensing is now becoming so common, with people pushing cubesat imaging satellites out of the front porch of the ISS, that the requirement for secrecy, particularly for old systems, seems to be eroding.

Online Blackstar

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #9 on: 02/28/2014 04:53 PM »
I'm thinking about a Russian chart similiar to U.S. one, and I've a lot of reference stuff about it.
While on Chinese side I have very few references to exploit (my bad).

It would be nice to have (in future) a sort of "World Spysats Handbook" (possibly with my drawings....).

What I would like to do, at least for the American ones, is develop a timeline for all the missions. I am going to play around with some timeline software to see if I can do this.

What it would show is each class of satellite (with a graphic image), and then the duration of each mission, over many decades. So it would look something like this:


KH-4 CORONA

--   --  -- --   -- --

KH-4A CORONA

                      --  --  --   --  -- --   -- --

KH-4B CORONA

                                                          -- -- -- --   --  -- --  -- --  --

KH-7 GAMBIT-1

    -- --   --  -- --   -- --   -- -- -- -- --  --   -- -- -- --


And so on.



Offline Star One

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KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #10 on: 03/02/2014 06:59 PM »
My only wish, (and will probably be years before it could happen) is that it would include the KH-11 late 80's upgrade, Lacross, FIA-R, and the canceled FIA-O satellites.

On the web there are some rough ground images of Lacrosse and an image of the Bus released by the NRO. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRO_Lacrosse.jpg  , http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/spy_satellites.html#Lacrosse-5 )

Still I think you do and did an excellent job!

First of all many thanks for your appreciation.

It would be nice to include also later NRO projcets, but usually I base my job on solid ground, while with the latest satellites there is a lot of "guessing around" and not more.

The more recent NRO satellite I depicted is the KH-11 (extrapolating it from the HST) and still there was a lot of things that I had to guess rather than extract from solid data.

The only things we can really do is sit and wait for the next FOIA of NRO de-classified documents about the latest satelltites (as already happened for CORONA, GAMBIT and HEXAGON).

Unfortunately, that will not happen for a long time. The way this seems to work is that they do not declassify anything until at least 25 years after the last one has stopped working. Because there are still variants of the KH-11 up there right now, even if they all stopped working today and the program was officially ended, the earliest you would see a substantial declassification of information would be 2039.

Now it is possible that this could change. It is simply a policy, not written in stone, and policies can change (there was a time when CORONA was never going to be declassified), but that's it for now.

But with a caveat... I have heard that there is the possibility of some more information becoming available on the 11 perhaps in the next few years. I am not holding my breath on it. But I'd also add that commercial remote sensing is now becoming so common, with people pushing cubesat imaging satellites out of the front porch of the ISS, that the requirement for secrecy, particularly for old systems, seems to be eroding.

OP thanks for those images.

The KH-11 is such an old system now, it is something like forty years old I would hope your prediction might well prove to be correct. If we look at aviation, secret photo reconnaissance aircraft have been declassified whilst still in use and being upgraded.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2014 07:00 PM by Star One »

Offline Skyrocket

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #11 on: 03/02/2014 11:05 PM »
I've updated all my drawings, since I wasn't satisfied about the GE RVs.
Here there are the new versions....

Ciao
Giuseppe

Hello Giuseppe,

i really like your charts, but i could not resist to do some nitpicking:

* Samos E-5 & E-6: used both an Agena-B, not an Agena-D as depicted
* KH-2 and KH-3: used Agena-B, not Agena-A as depicted
* KH-4 and KH-5 came both in two versions: with Agena-B and Agena-D
* KH-7 used the attached Agena-D only for the first few flights. Later flights separated from the Agena-D
* KH-8 came in several versions: first with only one RV and no solar panels, then 2 RV and no solar panels and finally 2 RV and solar panels.

best regards,
Gunter


Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #12 on: 03/03/2014 07:21 AM »
Dear Gunter,

many thanks for your tips, I appreciated them (because some infos are still missing to me) and I will update my job asap to implement them.

- I will correct SAMOS E-5 and E-6 with Agena-B
- Currently I'm working on the whole CORONA-ARGON-MURAL family and I realized that the first versions used Agena-rather than Agena-D, please hold on...
- KH-4 and KH-5, see above
- I didn't know that KH-7 jettisoned the Agena during its mission, I have one question about it: how KH-7 would end its lifetime and re-enter w/o a service module? Natural orbital decay?
- I know that KH-8 came in several different versions, I had to choose only one (the most representative, at least to me) for room reason. The chart will be too "full" and difficult to read if I put all the versions of each satellite togheter. In any case I willing to realize 3-views of each single version of each KH satellite.

I need only more references, please if you can provide me a complete list of each version (and how many RV and what Agena exploits) I will use to realize accurate drawing.

As usual, and this is for everyone who read me, comments - inputs - critics and everything could help me to improve my job are always welcomed.

Ciao
Giuseppe

I've updated all my drawings, since I wasn't satisfied about the GE RVs.
Here there are the new versions....

Ciao
Giuseppe

Hello Giuseppe,

i really like your charts, but i could not resist to do some nitpicking:

* Samos E-5 & E-6: used both an Agena-B, not an Agena-D as depicted
* KH-2 and KH-3: used Agena-B, not Agena-A as depicted
* KH-4 and KH-5 came both in two versions: with Agena-B and Agena-D
* KH-7 used the attached Agena-D only for the first few flights. Later flights separated from the Agena-D
* KH-8 came in several versions: first with only one RV and no solar panels, then 2 RV and no solar panels and finally 2 RV and solar panels.

best regards,
Gunter
« Last Edit: 03/03/2014 07:23 AM by archipeppe68 »

Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #13 on: 03/03/2014 07:22 AM »
I'm thinking about a Russian chart similiar to U.S. one, and I've a lot of reference stuff about it.
While on Chinese side I have very few references to exploit (my bad).

It would be nice to have (in future) a sort of "World Spysats Handbook" (possibly with my drawings....).

What I would like to do, at least for the American ones, is develop a timeline for all the missions. I am going to play around with some timeline software to see if I can do this.

What it would show is each class of satellite (with a graphic image), and then the duration of each mission, over many decades. So it would look something like this:


KH-4 CORONA

--   --  -- --   -- --

KH-4A CORONA

                      --  --  --   --  -- --   -- --

KH-4B CORONA

                                                          -- -- -- --   --  -- --  -- --  --

KH-7 GAMBIT-1

    -- --   --  -- --   -- --   -- -- -- -- --  --   -- -- -- --


And so on.

Dear Blackstar,

this is a nice idea I will start to work around it.

Ciao
Giuseppe

Offline Skyrocket

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #14 on: 03/03/2014 08:01 AM »
Dear Gunter,

many thanks for your tips, I appreciated them (because some infos are still missing to me) and I will update my job asap to implement them.

- I will correct SAMOS E-5 and E-6 with Agena-B
- Currently I'm working on the whole CORONA-ARGON-MURAL family and I realized that the first versions used Agena-rather than Agena-D, please hold on...
- KH-4 and KH-5, see above
- I didn't know that KH-7 jettisoned the Agena during its mission, I have one question about it: how KH-7 would end its lifetime and re-enter w/o a service module? Natural orbital decay?
- I know that KH-8 came in several different versions, I had to choose only one (the most representative, at least to me) for room reason. The chart will be too "full" and difficult to read if I put all the versions of each satellite togheter. In any case I willing to realize 3-views of each single version of each KH satellite.

I need only more references, please if you can provide me a complete list of each version (and how many RV and what Agena exploits) I will use to realize accurate drawing.

As usual, and this is for everyone who read me, comments - inputs - critics and everything could help me to improve my job are always welcomed.

Ciao
Giuseppe


Hello Giuseppe,
here are links to my website with lists of the different versions:

KH-1, Agena-A, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-1.htm
KH-2, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-2.htm
KH-2, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-3.htm
KH-4, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4_ab.htm
KH-4, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4_ad.htm
KH-4A, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4a.htm
KH-4B, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4b.htm
KH-5, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-5_ab.htm
KH-5, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-5_ad.htm
KH-6, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-6.htm
KH-7, (Agena-D), 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-7.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl1.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl2.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl3.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl4.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_dualmode.htm
« Last Edit: 03/03/2014 08:06 AM by Skyrocket »

Offline Star One

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KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #15 on: 03/03/2014 08:05 AM »
Thanks for those links. Like the site by the way, have used it for a while now.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2014 08:16 AM by Star One »

Offline archipeppe68

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #16 on: 03/03/2014 08:10 AM »
Dear Gunter,

many thanks for your tips, I appreciated them (because some infos are still missing to me) and I will update my job asap to implement them.

- I will correct SAMOS E-5 and E-6 with Agena-B
- Currently I'm working on the whole CORONA-ARGON-MURAL family and I realized that the first versions used Agena-rather than Agena-D, please hold on...
- KH-4 and KH-5, see above
- I didn't know that KH-7 jettisoned the Agena during its mission, I have one question about it: how KH-7 would end its lifetime and re-enter w/o a service module? Natural orbital decay?
- I know that KH-8 came in several different versions, I had to choose only one (the most representative, at least to me) for room reason. The chart will be too "full" and difficult to read if I put all the versions of each satellite togheter. In any case I willing to realize 3-views of each single version of each KH satellite.

I need only more references, please if you can provide me a complete list of each version (and how many RV and what Agena exploits) I will use to realize accurate drawing.

As usual, and this is for everyone who read me, comments - inputs - critics and everything could help me to improve my job are always welcomed.

Ciao
Giuseppe


Hello Giuseppe,
here are links to my website with lists of the different versions:

KH-1, Agena-A, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-1.htm
KH-2, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-2.htm
KH-2, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-3.htm
KH-4, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4_ab.htm
KH-4, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4_ad.htm
KH-4A, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4a.htm
KH-4B, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-4b.htm
KH-5, Agena-B, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-5_ab.htm
KH-5, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-5_ad.htm
KH-6, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-6.htm
KH-7, (Agena-D), 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-7.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 1 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl1.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl2.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl3.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_bl4.htm
KH-8, Agena-D, 2 SRV: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kh-8_dualmode.htm

Many thanks for the detailed references Gunter.

I know your nice website for so long but I never explored all.... (my bad!)
If I understood well KH-7 OCS had some sort of its own re-entry engine(s) and it make sense of the Agena jettison.

Grazie
Giuseppe

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #17 on: 03/04/2014 01:49 AM »
I know in one of the KH-xx threads it was recently brought up a left over 70" f6.1 "space mirror" was converted to a telescope. Anywho, the upcoming April dead tree copy of Sky and Telescope has a short two page article on it. I don't know if this will  be available on line since I only get the dead tree version.

Not to give away any spoilers but it does mention the mirror weight, sounds like the mirror was figured before being declared surplus, and provides a few comments on the superb figure.

Of course we do not know where this mirror would have been used. Mol? KH-11? Which block? Misty? DSP? ???
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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #18 on: 03/04/2014 03:00 AM »
I know in one of the KH-xx threads it was recently brought up a left over 70" f6.1 "space mirror" was converted to a telescope. Anywho, the upcoming April dead tree copy of Sky and Telescope has a short two page article on it. I don't know if this will  be available on line since I only get the dead tree version.

Not to give away any spoilers but it does mention the mirror weight, sounds like the mirror was figured before being declared surplus, and provides a few comments on the superb figure.

Of course we do not know where this mirror would have been used. Mol? KH-11? Which block? Misty? DSP? ???

It was for the 10/DORIAN, right? Essentially the same as the leftover DORIAN mirrors used for the MMT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi_Mirror_Telescope

"The MMT operated between 1979 and 1998 with 6 mirrors, each with a diameter of 1.8 meters, providing the equivalent gathering area of a 4.5-meter telescope, making it the third largest optical telescope in the world at the time of its dedication. It featured ambitious design innovations including its unusual optical design proposed by Aden Meinel, a co-rotating building and an altitude-azimuth mount."


There were six in the MMT (they're now in storage at the base of the mountain), and I think there's a mirror blank on display at a University of Arizona lobby. Where did this guy get his from?

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: KH-7 & 8 the GAMBIT Family
« Reply #19 on: 03/04/2014 11:46 AM »
I thought the original MMT mirrors where 72" not 70", so that would not be a perfect match.

What is very interesting to me is, when he obtained the mirror, it had already been figured. and it sounds to have a very good figure at that ;)

[Speculation Tag]
If the mirror figure was the figure for the program we have the program primary specs. Once we figure out what program. Of course we do not have the specs. on the secondary or if it used a secondary, so one can only speculate on the capabilities, focal length, resolution, field of view...
[/Speculation Tag]
« Last Edit: 03/04/2014 11:46 AM by kevin-rf »
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