Author Topic: 1st Soyuz-2.1v/Volga launch with AIST - December 28 2013 1230UTC  (Read 84365 times)

Offline edkyle99

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I'm wavering on this one. I go with the core stage, and the core stage has some commonalities. New engine, true,
but the basic dimensions are essentially the same as the R-7 Blok A.  I didn't count an RD-180-engined Atlas 3 as a
new family despite its new propulsion system, and I didn't consider the TR-201-powered Delta second stage
as a different stage family from the AJ-10-118 powered versions. So I'm leaning towards keeping the Soyuz-2-1V launches
in my 'R-7' family table.
Good point about Atlas III.  That may be the proper analogy.  In addition, Soyuz 2-1v, like Atlas III, still uses the same launch pads (with modifications) as the previous variants.

 - Ed Kyle

Online Steven Pietrobon

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Good point about Atlas III.  That may be the proper analogy.  In addition, Soyuz 2-1v, like Atlas III, still uses the same launch pads (with modifications) as the previous variants.

That's like saying all aircraft that use the same runway are Boeing 7x7s! :-) The 2.1v core is quite different from the R-7 core (aside from the attach points), so along with the "new" engine, I consider it to be a new launch vehicle as well.
« Last Edit: 12/23/2013 04:35 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Stan Black

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I'm wavering on this one. I go with the core stage, and the core stage has some commonalities. New engine, true,
but the basic dimensions are essentially the same as the R-7 Blok A.  I didn't count an RD-180-engined Atlas 3 as a
new family despite its new propulsion system, and I didn't consider the TR-201-powered Delta second stage
as a different stage family from the AJ-10-118 powered versions. So I'm leaning towards keeping the Soyuz-2-1V launches
in my 'R-7' family table.
Good point about Atlas III.  That may be the proper analogy.  In addition, Soyuz 2-1v, like Atlas III, still uses the same launch pads (with modifications) as the previous variants.

 - Ed Kyle

Thor changed shape and engines, and electronics?

And TsSKB Progress state 80% commonality with the central blok-A; see L2 (thanks to Mr. Pillet).

Should these discussions be in the generic Soyuz-2-1V thread?
« Last Edit: 12/23/2013 06:39 AM by Stan Black »

Offline Skyrocket

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I'm looking at this as a new rocket, since it uses a new first stage and first stage propulsion system.  It surely isn't an R-7.  It is "Soyuz" only in the same sense that "Atlas 5" claims a link to the original "Atlas", despite using a completely different booster stage in place of the part that was originally called "Atlas".

 - Ed Kyle

I'm wavering on this one. I go with the core stage, and the core stage has some commonalities. New engine, true,
but the basic dimensions are essentially the same as the R-7 Blok A.  I didn't count an RD-180-engined Atlas 3 as a
new family despite its new propulsion system, and I didn't consider the TR-201-powered Delta second stage
as a different stage family from the AJ-10-118 powered versions. So I'm leaning towards keeping the Soyuz-2-1V launches
in my 'R-7' family table.


I am also not yet decided about this issue. Similar to the Atlas family including the Atlas III and the Thor family also including the Deltas up to version III, i am also leaning to classify it within the R-7 family.
« Last Edit: 12/23/2013 08:52 AM by Skyrocket »

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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I'm looking at this as a new rocket, since it uses a new first stage and first stage propulsion system.  It surely isn't an R-7.  It is "Soyuz" only in the same sense that "Atlas 5" claims a link to the original "Atlas", despite using a completely different booster stage in place of the part that was originally called "Atlas".

 - Ed Kyle

I'm wavering on this one. I go with the core stage, and the core stage has some commonalities. New engine, true,
but the basic dimensions are essentially the same as the R-7 Blok A.  I didn't count an RD-180-engined Atlas 3 as a
new family despite its new propulsion system, and I didn't consider the TR-201-powered Delta second stage
as a different stage family from the AJ-10-118 powered versions. So I'm leaning towards keeping the Soyuz-2-1V launches
in my 'R-7' family table.


I am also not yet decided about this issue. Similar to the Atlas family including the Atlas III and the Thor family also including the Deltas up to version III, i am also leaning to classify it within the R-7 family.

And do you consider Ariane 5 to be an Ariane rocket ? :-)
Nicolas PILLET
Kosmonavtika : The French site on Russian Space

Offline Skyrocket

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I'm looking at this as a new rocket, since it uses a new first stage and first stage propulsion system.  It surely isn't an R-7.  It is "Soyuz" only in the same sense that "Atlas 5" claims a link to the original "Atlas", despite using a completely different booster stage in place of the part that was originally called "Atlas".

 - Ed Kyle

I'm wavering on this one. I go with the core stage, and the core stage has some commonalities. New engine, true,
but the basic dimensions are essentially the same as the R-7 Blok A.  I didn't count an RD-180-engined Atlas 3 as a
new family despite its new propulsion system, and I didn't consider the TR-201-powered Delta second stage
as a different stage family from the AJ-10-118 powered versions. So I'm leaning towards keeping the Soyuz-2-1V launches
in my 'R-7' family table.


I am also not yet decided about this issue. Similar to the Atlas family including the Atlas III and the Thor family also including the Deltas up to version III, i am also leaning to classify it within the R-7 family.

And do you consider Ariane 5 to be an Ariane rocket ? :-)

Ariane is a different case, as the Ariane-5 rocket (as built) has practically nothing in common with the Ariane-1 to-4 series. Therfore i classify these as two families.

Online Galactic Penguin SST

This may be a long shot, but does anyone here have the launch time line for tomorrow's launch? How many burns will the Volga upper stage do?
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline edkyle99

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Only the upper, LOX tank portion of the first stage existed before Soyuz 2-1v development began, FWIW.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/23/2013 03:15 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline anik

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This may be a long shot, but does anyone here have the launch time line for tomorrow's launch? How many burns will the Volga upper stage do?

It is a top secret Russian military space launch by a top secret Soyuz-2-1V rocket with a top secret Volga upper stage and a top secret SKRL-756 calibration spheres and a top secret Aist satellite from a top secret launch pad 43/4 of a top secret Plesetsk cosmodrome with especially a top secret launch timeline and especially a top secret quantity of burns.

Online Galactic Penguin SST

This may be a long shot, but does anyone here have the launch time line for tomorrow's launch? How many burns will the Volga upper stage do?

It is a top secret Russian military space launch by a top secret Soyuz-2-1V rocket with a top secret Volga upper stage and a top secret SKRL-756 calibration spheres and a top secret Aist satellite from a top secret launch pad 43/4 of a top secret Plesetsk cosmodrome with especially a top secret launch timeline and especially a top secret quantity of burns.

Best quote I have seen this month!  ;D

I know that TsSKB-Progress has been negotiating with SSTL and the Koreans for launching commercial payloads on the S-2.1v - who will then provide the launch services? (Starsem? New company?)
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline Stan Black

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This may be a long shot, but does anyone here have the launch time line for tomorrow's launch? How many burns will the Volga upper stage do?

It is a top secret Russian military space launch by a top secret Soyuz-2-1V rocket with a top secret Volga upper stage and a top secret SKRL-756 calibration spheres and a top secret Aist satellite from a top secret launch pad 43/4 of a top secret Plesetsk cosmodrome with especially a top secret launch timeline and especially a top secret quantity of burns.

Best quote I have seen this month!  ;D

I know that TsSKB-Progress has been negotiating with SSTL and the Koreans for launching commercial payloads on the S-2.1v - who will then provide the launch services? (Starsem? New company?)

The rocket itself is not so top secret; plenty of evidence exists from Russian Government and TsSKB-Progress procurements, NOTAMS… So then the payload, does it reflect the shape and size of a future Russian Military satellite?
« Last Edit: 12/23/2013 08:05 PM by Stan Black »

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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I know that TsSKB-Progress has been negotiating with SSTL and the Koreans for launching commercial payloads on the S-2.1v - who will then provide the launch services? (Starsem? New company?)

STARSEM has nothing to do with Soyuz-2.1v.
« Last Edit: 12/23/2013 05:23 PM by Nicolas PILLET »
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Offline Prober

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This may be a long shot, but does anyone here have the launch time line for tomorrow's launch? How many burns will the Volga upper stage do?

It is a top secret Russian military space launch by a top secret Soyuz-2-1V rocket with a top secret Volga upper stage and a top secret SKRL-756 calibration spheres and a top secret Aist satellite from a top secret launch pad 43/4 of a top secret Plesetsk cosmodrome with especially a top secret launch timeline and especially a top secret quantity of burns.

Sorry to hear the Russian thinking is going back to 1950's-1970's thinking.   Note to Russian military these type of secrets are no longer possible in the internet age.
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
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Offline Chris Bergin

This may be a long shot, but does anyone here have the launch time line for tomorrow's launch? How many burns will the Volga upper stage do?

It is a top secret Russian military space launch by a top secret Soyuz-2-1V rocket with a top secret Volga upper stage and a top secret SKRL-756 calibration spheres and a top secret Aist satellite from a top secret launch pad 43/4 of a top secret Plesetsk cosmodrome with especially a top secret launch timeline and especially a top secret quantity of burns.

So no tweetup event? ;)

Three payloads: Two SKRL-756 calibration spheres and the Aist satellite as the main payload? Just working out how to represent the launch (usually the rocket and the primary payload).

Offline Stan Black

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This may be a long shot, but does anyone here have the launch time line for tomorrow's launch? How many burns will the Volga upper stage do?

It is a top secret Russian military space launch by a top secret Soyuz-2-1V rocket with a top secret Volga upper stage and a top secret SKRL-756 calibration spheres and a top secret Aist satellite from a top secret launch pad 43/4 of a top secret Plesetsk cosmodrome with especially a top secret launch timeline and especially a top secret quantity of burns.

So no tweetup event? ;)

Three payloads: Two SKRL-756 calibration spheres and the Aist satellite as the main payload? Just working out how to represent the launch (usually the rocket and the primary payload).

The performance of the Volga upperstage is also important; part of future satellites?
« Last Edit: 12/23/2013 08:08 PM by Stan Black »

Offline Prober

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This may be a long shot, but does anyone here have the launch time line for tomorrow's launch? How many burns will the Volga upper stage do?

It is a top secret Russian military space launch by a top secret Soyuz-2-1V rocket with a top secret Volga upper stage and a top secret SKRL-756 calibration spheres and a top secret Aist satellite from a top secret launch pad 43/4 of a top secret Plesetsk cosmodrome with especially a top secret launch timeline and especially a top secret quantity of burns.

So no tweetup event? ;)

Three payloads: Two SKRL-756 calibration spheres and the Aist satellite as the main payload? Just working out how to represent the launch (usually the rocket and the primary payload).
only a limited party thread for this new launcher  :D
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline Chris Bergin

Ok, I've used a lot of a 2012 preview written for NSF by Nathaniel Downes and added a bit more. I know we have a lot of experts on here, so any updated changes can be PMed to me if required.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/12/russia-debut-soyuz-2-1v-plesetsk/

Offline Artyom.

According to Vlad, the launch is planned at 14:00 UTC on December 24.
« Last Edit: 12/24/2013 01:47 AM by Artyom. »
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Online Galactic Penguin SST

Here's a Russian news report about the upcoming launch today, with the rocket on the launch pad: http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=563694

Interestingly it claims a launch time of 10:30 UTC...... seeing that the NOTAMs that are still in effect are of the 12:00-13:00 UTC time range, I think the correct launch time is still 12:30 UTC.

Oh and the air space closures seems to indicate a target orbit inclination of 82 degrees.....  ::)

Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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I've just been told that the launch is delayed to 25th December 2013, 16:30 local time.

People at Plesetsk worked on the launch pad until 04:00 last night. They need to rest.
Nicolas PILLET
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