Author Topic: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?  (Read 19836 times)

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #20 on: 04/23/2013 09:58 AM »
Would a stretched core + 2 x AJ-26-500 be viable?

Regarding possible GTO ambitions, I think that this would require boosting Antares to a three stage vehicle with a further stage for the insertion to GTO.  Would Core>Castor-30XL>Castor-30 be viable?


OSC already offers an optional third stage for BLEO launches - though it is a Star-48 motor (essentially the Delta-3000/II third stage, among its many flight histories), not the bigger Castor-30. Although at only 1.8 tonnes to GTO, most of today's communication satellites would be too big for the Antares. On the other hand, this may be the perfect launcher for NASA's Discovery class planetary missions and similar sized scientific spacecrafts.....

Quote
Here's a big challenge though: Can ATK crew-rate the Castor? That way, Orbital can possibly fly their space-plane on their own LV.  I'm sure the MARS guys would love to be a crew launch facility!

Only if your space-plane or spacecraft is less than 6 tonnes.  ;)
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Offline gospacex

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #21 on: 04/23/2013 10:39 AM »
if there would be a case for gaining performance through small strap-on SRMs.

Eastern Bloc launch vehicles are not designed for SRM acoustics.  My educated guess is that it would lose a lot of the Zenit heritage.  The NK-33 nozzles would probably not like the radiative heating from the SRM plumes either.

I think the key word here is "small". Meaning they burn for about 20-30 seconds. With such short burn, they can even be made reusable (they will fall within ~1mile of the shore).

Offline R7

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #22 on: 04/23/2013 10:41 AM »
9 x NK-33 + NK-43 = Antares 9 ? :)
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Offline Prober

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #23 on: 04/23/2013 02:41 PM »
And if you add NK-43 (hmm AJ26-60? ;D ) in the second stage I think performance will be even better - I couldn't find Castor's specs but I'm pretty sure NK-43 has better Isp...

It does have a very nice Isp. However, it would be a little like putting a V10 in a motorcycle. It'd be a fun ride, but you're unlikely to survive it. If you dig back, Antonio mentions the work done on a high energy liquid upper stage powered by an RD-0124. That's a 70,000lbf engine (which is pretty close to the thrust output of a Castor 30) Contrast that with about 400,000 lbf for the NK-43. The Antares first stage won't lift an upper stage large enough to justify that, so if you were silly enough to build such a thing, you'd have a small-ish upper stage with a big honking engine, topped by what would rapidly become a very flat payload.

The A-One launch impressed me as being very balanced in its design for the job.  This can be seen by the launch itself.
 
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Offline Prober

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #24 on: 04/23/2013 02:52 PM »
Aerojet's purchase of PWR (P&W was the original U.S. participant in RD AMROSS) will in part determine how NK-33, etc., plays out. 

Will Aerojet-PWR ever actually build kerosene rocket engines?

 - Ed Kyle

Well maybe Aerojet needs to pass around a copy of that "came in from the cold" video to management.  Sometimes an issue is so close that you can't see what you have.
 
If Russia wants to slap Mr. Kuznetsov around again, then it's their loss. Let's not forget the history.  Mr. Kuznetsov hid those engines at a risk I'm sure to himself and others.
 
I for one would enjoy having Mr. Kuznetsov and some of the dev team at one of the Orbital launches
 
 
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #25 on: 04/23/2013 04:51 PM »
Would a stretched core + 2 x AJ-26-500 be viable?

Any comments about this?
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Offline Prober

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #26 on: 04/23/2013 06:48 PM »
Would a stretched core + 2 x AJ-26-500 be viable?

Any comments about this?

Sounds like too much.
When time permits; was planning on pulling out the first Kistler stuff using 3 AJ-26's and lay them out next to the Antares as a comparison.
 
 
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Offline strangequark

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #27 on: 04/24/2013 05:21 AM »
Aerojet's purchase of PWR (P&W was the original U.S. participant in RD AMROSS) will in part determine how NK-33, etc., plays out. 

Will Aerojet-PWR ever actually build kerosene rocket engines?

 - Ed Kyle

Well maybe Aerojet needs to pass around a copy of that "came in from the cold" video to management.  Sometimes an issue is so close that you can't see what you have.
 
If Russia wants to slap Mr. Kuznetsov around again, then it's their loss. Let's not forget the history.  Mr. Kuznetsov hid those engines at a risk I'm sure to himself and others.
 
I for one would enjoy having Mr. Kuznetsov and some of the dev team at one of the Orbital launches
 
 

Unfortunately, he's been deceased for nearly two decades. It's a real shame he never got to see his engines fly. A brave and brilliant man.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #28 on: 04/24/2013 09:49 AM »
Aerojet's purchase of PWR (P&W was the original U.S. participant in RD AMROSS) will in part determine how NK-33, etc., plays out. 

Will Aerojet-PWR ever actually build kerosene rocket engines?

 - Ed Kyle

Well maybe Aerojet needs to pass around a copy of that "came in from the cold" video to management.  Sometimes an issue is so close that you can't see what you have.
 
If Russia wants to slap Mr. Kuznetsov around again, then it's their loss. Let's not forget the history.  Mr. Kuznetsov hid those engines at a risk I'm sure to himself and others.
 
I for one would enjoy having Mr. Kuznetsov and some of the dev team at one of the Orbital launches
 
 

Unfortunately, he's been deceased for nearly two decades. It's a real shame he never got to see his engines fly. A brave and brilliant man.

At the risk of going OT, it's never easy being utterly overshadowed by out-and-out geniuses like Glushko and Korolev and, worst of all, having your work caught up in the political tornado of the clash of their egos.
"Oops! I left the silly thing in reverse!" - Duck Dodgers

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DON'T PROPAGANDISE, FLY!!!

Offline asmi

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #29 on: 04/24/2013 01:01 PM »
9 x NK-33 + NK-43 = Antares 9 ? :)
Well in N-1 they were supposed to be 30:8 = 3.75, so for one NK-43 you would need 4 NK-33.

Offline Prober

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #30 on: 04/24/2013 03:13 PM »
Aerojet's purchase of PWR (P&W was the original U.S. participant in RD AMROSS) will in part determine how NK-33, etc., plays out. 

Will Aerojet-PWR ever actually build kerosene rocket engines?

 - Ed Kyle

Well maybe Aerojet needs to pass around a copy of that "came in from the cold" video to management.  Sometimes an issue is so close that you can't see what you have.
 
If Russia wants to slap Mr. Kuznetsov around again, then it's their loss. Let's not forget the history.  Mr. Kuznetsov hid those engines at a risk I'm sure to himself and others.
 
I for one would enjoy having Mr. Kuznetsov and some of the dev team at one of the Orbital launches
 
 

Unfortunately, he's been deceased for nearly two decades. It's a real shame he never got to see his engines fly. A brave and brilliant man.

Agreed, "In from the cold" had a reference to meeting.  Must be they met leaders of the company with his name on it.
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Offline R7

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #31 on: 04/24/2013 08:47 PM »
9 x NK-33 + NK-43 = Antares 9 ? :)
Well in N-1 they were supposed to be 30:8 = 3.75, so for one NK-43 you would need 4 NK-33.

N-1 was 3-stage to orbit.
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Offline zaitcev

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #32 on: 04/24/2013 10:49 PM »
If that does happen, they might look into swapping out the current AJ's for higher thrust versions from Aerojet, or maybe RD-191's. There's only so many NK-33s; they'd have to make a switch anyway.

The infamous Energomash preso solicited RD-181: the 2xRD-193. The 191 is far too expensive and heavy for what it is. Its main purpose is to provide the excessively deep throttling, without which Angara cannot meet its performance. Not a problem at Antares and Soyuz, where simpler, cheaper, lighter engine is more appropriate.

Offline CardBoardBoxProcessor

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #33 on: 04/24/2013 10:52 PM »
Yeah what exactly is Orbitals plan for that? They bought like 30 Nk-33s? They are now down 2. Eight resupply missions puts them at minus 16. so there is 18. Then the next demo is 2 more so that leaves them with 5 flights worth. Will they even bother launching more with Antares or just shelve the program at that point?

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #34 on: 04/24/2013 11:26 PM »
Yeah what exactly is Orbitals plan for that? They bought like 30 Nk-33s? They are now down 2. Eight resupply missions puts them at minus 16. so there is 18. Then the next demo is 2 more so that leaves them with 5 flights worth. Will they even bother launching more with Antares or just shelve the program at that point?

not much of a problem building them.
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/nk33.html    The beauty is how simple and clean the design is.  As long as you keep that, you should be able to manufacture it cheaply.
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Offline CardBoardBoxProcessor

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #35 on: 04/24/2013 11:33 PM »
I am sure they would want to simplify them a bit. But it is a good design that's for sure. Is there a thread somewhere comparing it to the Merlin 1D?

also, that starter cartridge on the bottom. They would not beable to use the NK-34 as a second stage engine for GEO orbits due to lack of restart capability? Then again they looking at Castor as a GEo upper stage so...
« Last Edit: 04/24/2013 11:35 PM by CardBoardBoxProcessor »

Offline zaitcev

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #36 on: 04/25/2013 12:56 AM »
It's either AJ-500 or RD-181, or close down the program. But as the frustration with RD-0124 demonstrates, dealing with Russians is somewhat unpredictable. So, it all depends on Antares picking up after Delta II. If that succeeds, Aerojet may be able to deliver. Otherwise, pray Elon does not screw it up, because that's your only rocket.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #37 on: 05/01/2013 03:22 PM »
May be, it is possible to order single-chamber RD809 in Ukraine? Or to try to buy the license for production RD0110 (it is the simple engine with a cycle of the gas generator) in Russia. But in any case, loading capacity growth only at the expense of the second stage is limited by 8 metric tons on LEO.

PS. I mean kerolox engines.
« Last Edit: 05/01/2013 04:17 PM by Dmitry_V_home »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #38 on: 05/01/2013 03:31 PM »
May be, it is possible to order single-chamber RD809 in Ukraine? Or to try to buy the license for production RD0110 (it is the simple engine with a cycle of the gas generator) in Russia. But in any case, loading capacity growth only at the expense of the second stage is limited by 8 metric tons on LEO.
RD-809 is a maybe, but I thought officials and industry planned to phaseout RD-0110 engine around 2020 in favor of switching production fully to RD-0124 (RD-0124S and RD-0124A).
« Last Edit: 05/01/2013 04:38 PM by russianhalo117 »

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Future Orbital Launchers - What's After Antares?
« Reply #39 on: 05/01/2013 04:15 PM »
In my opinion, planned cessation of production of RD0110 in Russia - a good reason for license purchase.

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