Author Topic: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013  (Read 108481 times)

Offline jcm

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #160 on: 07/02/2013 04:01 AM »
http://rt.com/news/proton-m-rocket-takeoff-crash-514/


At the bottom of this RT states "leaking nuclear fuel"


Excuse me but unless that is some sort of typo that suggests that these GPS birds had some sort of nuclear cargo on board?

Clarify for me if I am wrong but I thought GLONASS did not have nuclear propulsion of any nature.

Heres the caption:

"The emergency ministry of Kazakhstan is considering evacuating the surrounding areas as nuclear fuel leaked from the rocket could threaten the immediate vicinity."

I do hope that is a typo and they meant "toxic" fuel. Because the alternative suggests that somehow a conventionally propelled Russian satellite has a nuclear cargo for some reason. 

Definitely a typo or mistake.
But the fuel is toxic, for sure.
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Offline Lee Jay

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #161 on: 07/02/2013 04:01 AM »
http://rt.com/news/proton-m-rocket-takeoff-crash-514/


At the bottom of this RT states "leaking nuclear fuel"


Excuse me but unless that is some sort of typo that suggests that these GPS birds had some sort of nuclear cargo on board?

Clarify for me if I am wrong but I thought GLONASS did not have nuclear propulsion of any nature.

Heres the caption:

"The emergency ministry of Kazakhstan is considering evacuating the surrounding areas as nuclear fuel leaked from the rocket could threaten the immediate vicinity."

I do hope that is a typo and they meant "toxic" fuel. Because the alternative suggests that somehow a conventionally propelled Russian satellite has a nuclear cargo for some reason. 

Could it be a language thing?  These satellites would have atomic clocks on board, correct?

Offline Rusty Adding Machine

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Re: LIVE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #162 on: 07/02/2013 04:01 AM »
Yeah, I kept waiting for for the destruct command, but it just kept going further and further down and then I realized it was going to hit big time.

It has always been my impression that there is no destruct package on Baikonur launches, the early ascent abort procedure is to order engines off -- which did not seem to work here.

Tweet from Anatoly Zak: "A Baikonur veteran: Engine cutoff on #Proton is blocked for the first 45 seconds to ensure a safe distance from pad."

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/351909548753305600

Offline JimO

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #163 on: 07/02/2013 04:02 AM »
http://life24.kz/incident/2999.html

... reports [in Russian] that the wind was blowing towards Baykonur city and that residents were advised to stay indoors with windows closed, as a precautionary measure. But it was a long way off, and there's not much along the route from the western pad leg [Proton/Tsiklon] to the town, except maybe local herdsmen.

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #164 on: 07/02/2013 04:05 AM »
http://rt.com/news/proton-m-rocket-takeoff-crash-514/


At the bottom of this RT states "leaking nuclear fuel"


Excuse me but unless that is some sort of typo that suggests that these GPS birds had some sort of nuclear cargo on board?

Clarify for me if I am wrong but I thought GLONASS did not have nuclear propulsion of any nature.

Heres the caption:

"The emergency ministry of Kazakhstan is considering evacuating the surrounding areas as nuclear fuel leaked from the rocket could threaten the immediate vicinity."

I do hope that is a typo and they meant "toxic" fuel. Because the alternative suggests that somehow a conventionally propelled Russian satellite has a nuclear cargo for some reason. 

Could it be a language thing?  These satellites would have atomic clocks on board, correct?


As I said in the discussion thread, there is not enough material in these systems to merit this level of concern, and the containers for the material are so hardened that even this level of impact should not breach them.

To my knowledge the level of material would be less than that, by far, used in xray sources for xray machines, and likely would use an extra layer of steel (if it required a source container as opposed to a button sized application like americium in smoke detectors).

This HAS to be a typo. Otherwise there is an implication here something illicit was onboard.
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Online Antares

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #165 on: 07/02/2013 04:07 AM »
Once it was upside down a few frames showed a clean looking hexagonal pattern of six glowing exhaust nozzles.
I saw that as well. There are six engines burning. If they are all producing expected thrust is unknown though. There are time when it looks like one of the exhaust streams is pointing away from the rest. As if the engine is gimbaling out of sync with the others. However its hard to tell if that is just an artifact of the dynamics and environment of a very off normal flight.

Interesting that they were all still burning since there was that brown (BFRC) cloud shortly after the second camera view came on.  With hypers, though, a chamber could be lost and then relight with sustained flow; but getting the turbo spinning again would be a trick.... unless the preburner didn't go out.  NEI.
If you use the word "should," you shall provide evidence to back up your opinion.  Shoulds are opinions.

Online Antares

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #166 on: 07/02/2013 04:13 AM »
Wouldn't the apparent guidance failure have eliminated any capability of such a system to work also?

Doesn't look like a guidance failure to me.  That dark cloud is suspect.  Could be a control side failure.


For reference (in general, not on the above)
http://lpre.de/energomash/RD-253/index.htm
If you use the word "should," you shall provide evidence to back up your opinion.  Shoulds are opinions.

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #167 on: 07/02/2013 04:15 AM »
Reviewed the footage there is definitely some sort of cloud that originates out of view from the reverse side (of the side facing the camera) of the booster just after liftoff.

Looks to me like that may be the origin of this but I couldn't tell you what would have produced it. There are any number of failures that could have created that cloud.

My gut tells me partial engine failure or pressurization system failure in that area and that started the chain.
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #168 on: 07/02/2013 04:40 AM »
http://ucsusa.org/assets/documents/nwgs/physics-space-security.pdf.

Looks like Glonass M may have RTGs. That would be bad because the birds themselves disintegrated while the rocket was still airborne right after the nose dive occurred.


If anyone can provide confirmation that would be great.


If this is true then it means this is a tremendous disaster. The contamination could potentially be widespread.
« Last Edit: 07/02/2013 04:41 AM by FinalFrontier »
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Offline William Graham

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #169 on: 07/02/2013 04:42 AM »
http://ucsusa.org/assets/documents/nwgs/physics-space-security.pdf.

Looks like Glonass M may have RTGs. That would be bad because the birds themselves disintegrated while the rocket was still airborne right after the nose dive occurred.


If anyone can provide confirmation that would be great.


If this is true then it means this is a tremendous disaster. The contamination could potentially be widespread.

GLONASS are solar-powered.
« Last Edit: 07/02/2013 04:44 AM by William Graham »

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #170 on: 07/02/2013 04:43 AM »
http://ucsusa.org/assets/documents/nwgs/physics-space-security.pdf.

Looks like Glonass M may have RTGs. That would be bad because the birds themselves disintegrated while the rocket was still airborne right after the nose dive occurred.


If anyone can provide confirmation that would be great.


If this is true then it means this is a tremendous disaster. The contamination could potentially be widespread.

GLONASS are solar-powered.

Yes and document states it was for backup power
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #171 on: 07/02/2013 04:49 AM »
Correct:

OKAY established that this was a typo.

CURRENT Glonass design does not have any RTGs, documents refer to something else.

RT has also corrected the story and updated it. Update includes information stating that RS has said it may have been engine failure

http://rt.com/news/proton-m-rocket-takeoff-crash-514/

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Offline William Graham

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #172 on: 07/02/2013 04:50 AM »
http://ucsusa.org/assets/documents/nwgs/physics-space-security.pdf.

Looks like Glonass M may have RTGs. That would be bad because the birds themselves disintegrated while the rocket was still airborne right after the nose dive occurred.


If anyone can provide confirmation that would be great.


If this is true then it means this is a tremendous disaster. The contamination could potentially be widespread.

GLONASS are solar-powered.

Yes and document states it was for backup power

Can you give me a page reference for that, from a casual search for terms such as "Glonass" and "RTG", I can't find anything that would link the two.

For that matter, has Russia ever launched an RTG-powered spacecraft?
« Last Edit: 07/02/2013 04:51 AM by William Graham »

Offline jcm

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #173 on: 07/02/2013 04:50 AM »
http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=20191

Roskosmos statement. The rocket fell on the cosmodrome property.
The failure comission will be headed by A. P. Lopatin of Roskosmos.
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #174 on: 07/02/2013 04:54 AM »
http://ucsusa.org/assets/documents/nwgs/physics-space-security.pdf.

Looks like Glonass M may have RTGs. That would be bad because the birds themselves disintegrated while the rocket was still airborne right after the nose dive occurred.


If anyone can provide confirmation that would be great.


If this is true then it means this is a tremendous disaster. The contamination could potentially be widespread.

GLONASS are solar-powered.

Yes and document states it was for backup power

Can you give me a page reference for that, from a casual search for terms such as "Glonass" and "RTG", I can't find anything that would link the two.

For that matter, has Russia ever launched an RTG-powered spacecraft?

See my previous post.

Second, yes they have. Third, if you were to google does glonass have rtgs? you will get an excerpted quote (by google) underneath the link I posted.) that says they do or did.  However I think it was either a misquote or refers to something else or merely a design consideration because the updated news stories point to this as having been a typo.
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Offline jcm

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #175 on: 07/02/2013 04:54 AM »
http://ucsusa.org/assets/documents/nwgs/physics-space-security.pdf.

Looks like Glonass M may have RTGs. That would be bad because the birds themselves disintegrated while the rocket was still airborne right after the nose dive occurred.


If anyone can provide confirmation that would be great.


If this is true then it means this is a tremendous disaster. The contamination could potentially be widespread.

GLONASS are solar-powered.

Yes and document states it was for backup power

Can you give me a page reference for that, from a casual search for terms such as "Glonass" and "RTG", I can't find anything that would link the two.

For that matter, has Russia ever launched an RTG-powered spacecraft?

Russia tested the Orion-1 RTG, using Po-210, on Kosmos-84 and Kosmos-90 in 1965. They also had 4 Pu-238 RTGs on Mars-96, which
crashed in Bolivia in 1996. Small radioactive heating units were
used on Lunokhod.

I am not aware of RTGs on Glonass, and I also can't find the reference you mention in Laura and Greg's book.  [Edit: yes, the dangers of Google: the words Glonass and RTG both appear in the book, but not in the same chapter.]
« Last Edit: 07/02/2013 04:56 AM by jcm »
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Offline owais.usmani

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #176 on: 07/02/2013 04:55 AM »
Just another failure during federal launch. Poor Proton, poor ILS. :(

And why am I not surprised  ::)

I'm having serious trouble believing that they do any sort of testing/QA of the LV on federal missions.

Which btw, reminds me of two more potential failures this year: Globus-1M & Ekspress-AM5 (of-course if they still launch this year)

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #177 on: 07/02/2013 04:58 AM »
Next question is launch schedule.

Plethora of problems here.
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #178 on: 07/02/2013 05:12 AM »
Live update by RT news
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyuiShSePS4


Interesting. In this update they still were using the term "radioactive" and the reporter mentions the satellite had radioactive materials onboard.

So they went ahead and did a live update with a typo insofar as their scripts too.  ::)  ::) Gotta get better editorial checking on these live stories.
« Last Edit: 07/02/2013 05:15 AM by FinalFrontier »
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Offline jcm

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Re: FAILURE: Proton-M/DM-03 with 3xGlonass-M - July 2, 2013
« Reply #179 on: 07/02/2013 05:32 AM »
http://interfax.ru/world/news.asp?id=315986

Google translation modified by me

Carrier rocket "Proton-M" fell to 1.5 km from the launch site command post, "Interfax-AVN" on Tuesday at the launch site.
"According to the telemetry at the fourth second the  missile began deviations in pitch. At the 12 second mark, they  intensified.  At 17 seconds the engines underwent abnormal shutdown.  Thereafter, the rocket began to fall apart in the air, on the 32-second mark she fell and exploded "- said the agency source.
He noted that the rocket fell into the "1.5-2 km from the ground control center."
"The wind was blowing in the opposite direction, so the cloud (fuel) did not threaten the command post, and professionals who were there ," he added.
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