Author Topic: Dennis Tito's Inspiration Mars Foundation Pre Announcement Thread  (Read 87758 times)

Offline ChileVerde

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Yeah, sorry. Frustration got vented. The LV analysis part was so disappointing. Kissing Dragons, maybe, but that just pretty much doubled the cost.

A word of caution: the now-disappeared document has a creation date of January 6, 2013. So even if, as seems plausible if not certain, it's the paper that is going to be presented at the IEEE conference, what I was sent may be an early draft and the final version will differ to some degree.
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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..by publishing a paper behind paywall?
Please! Public announcement is today and the paper will be published at the IEEE conference. No need to write such words from your side.

Yeah, sorry. Frustration got vented. The LV analysis part was so disappointing. Kissing Dragons, maybe, but that just pretty much doubled the cost.

And might double every positive feature too: payload, consumables, crew health and science capabilities.  Once again, I urge 'wait and see'.
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Offline spectre9

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The mission in the paper is all based on life support systems.

Written by a bunch of ECLSS experts trying to squeeze everything into an unrealistic TMI throw mass.

Not just the most advanced life support systems ever but the most advanced heat shield ever.

The Dragon capsule might be big enough. I haven't really thought about it.

Pressure suits and an airlock would be good.

More testing needs to be done on the confinement. Put 2 people in a smallish sized sealed box with 500 days of provisions and one small toilet and see how it goes.  :P

That's something they'd want you to say though given some of the writers are Biosphere 2 engineers.  :-[

I guess they sort of have a point that in some ways it is easier than Apollo. Saturn V could've done this mission easily and this paper plays into the less launches of bigger rockets (larger payloads) mentality which many seem to be stuck in.

Tito is credited first in the paper. Seems the connection is there.

Offline apace

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Not just the most advanced life support systems ever but the most advanced heat shield ever.

You read the paper? Mission can be done with state of the art life support system. Advanced will be good but not needed.

Offline JohnFornaro

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For me, an outstanding question is the total mission delta-v, in the same terms as on the Larson & Pranke pages I posted above.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31160.msg1017827#msg1017827

with only minor course correction budget (It is free-return after all).

So the round trip is: 6.232 + 5.147  = 11.649 km/s?

L&P page 260, suggest that on 06-12-18, a round trip, including landing, could happen for 10.942 km/s.  Taking 879 days.

It will be interesting to read about the upcoming presser.
« Last Edit: 02/27/2013 04:08 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline ugordan

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So the round trip is: 6.232 + 5.147  = 11.649 km/s?

No, you can't do math like that with Vinf numbers, that's the hyperbolic excess velocity. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_trajectory

In case of Mars flyby, the outbound leg Vinf will be the same for the inbound part since there is no propulsive burn done at Mars, but the vector direction will be different, hence a different heliocentric velocity and a resultant trajectory change after the flyby.

Offline spectre9

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Not just the most advanced life support systems ever but the most advanced heat shield ever.

You read the paper? Mission can be done with state of the art life support system. Advanced will be good but not needed.

They give 5 SOA technologies.

I'd like to see the proof that all of these technologies are qualified to 500 day usage.

Potable water by reduction of CO2?

75% recovery from urine and flush water as potable?

It's SOA because Paragon says so and I'm guessing they can build it if given the funding.


Offline apace

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Tito's Mars program was mentioned in the congress hearing today.

Offline apace

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This Is How Dennis Tito Plans To Send People to Mars
http://spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1699
« Last Edit: 02/27/2013 03:37 PM by apace »

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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@ apace,

Looks like the people who speculated about a BEAM on the nose were right!
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Interesting about the inflatable, that makes things more plausible from a crew habitability standpoint.

We already know BEAM will fit in a Dragon Trunk, so if they used Dragon, then they could in theory deploy BEAM out the back of the Trunk, then flip the Dragon around 180 degrees and dock to the BEAM (obviously BEAM would need a compatible docking port, as the ISS CBM couldn't be used). Plus such a proposal would only require one launch.

BEAM may turn out to have benefits far beyond a tech demo on the ISS - indeed, I think the ISS is just beginning to show one of its long-promised benefits, in that hardware developed for ISS (such as commercial crew and BEAM) can have direct application to commercial enterprises, thus saving huge development costs for such ventures.
« Last Edit: 02/27/2013 03:59 PM by Space Pete »
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Offline jongoff

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Yeah, sorry. Frustration got vented. The LV analysis part was so disappointing. Kissing Dragons, maybe, but that just pretty much doubled the cost.

A word of caution: the now-disappeared document has a creation date of January 6, 2013. So even if, as seems plausible if not certain, it's the paper that is going to be presented at the IEEE conference, what I was sent may be an early draft and the final version will differ to some degree.

No, that's the final version of the paper--they were required to submit it to IEEE back in December. The FH payload estimate was originally intended as just a placeholder until they could get better numbers from SpaceX (since they assumed getting the numbers from SpaceX would be easy), but in the end due to the deadline they ended up having to publish that estimate instead of numbers from SpaceX.

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Offline R7

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Looks like the people who speculated about a BEAM on the nose were right!

Or just ad hoc illustration for the article. Even Orion doesn't have the circular solar panels anymore?

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Ok guys, let's try and increase the quality of this thread.

Offline Blackstar

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Looks like the people who speculated about a BEAM on the nose were right!

Or just ad hoc illustration for the article. Even Orion doesn't have the circular solar panels anymore?


I think its inclusion is significant. However, I wouldn't over-analyze the artwork. Remember that Golden Spike released artwork that has no relationship to any actual engineering work.

Offline Robotbeat

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@ apace,

Looks like the people who speculated about a BEAM on the nose were right!
I think I suggested it. ;) Not sure I was the first (and of course, it doesn't take much foresight to guess that as a possible solution).
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Offline JohnFornaro

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So the round trip is: 6.232 + 5.147  = 11.649 km/s?

No, you can't do math like that with Vinf numbers, that's the hyperbolic excess velocity. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_trajectory

In case of Mars flyby, the outbound leg Vinf will be the same for the inbound part since there is no propulsive burn done at Mars, but the vector direction will be different, hence a different heliocentric velocity and a resultant trajectory change after the flyby.

Thanks for the effort, but I gotta do a DBUG Salute on that one, since I'm not knowledgable enough to translate.

Could you put that in equivalent terms to the delta-v numbers in those L&P pages?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline muomega0

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The mission in the paper is all based on life support systems.

Written by a bunch of ECLSS experts trying to squeeze everything into an unrealistic TMI throw mass.

Not just the most advanced life support systems ever but the most advanced heat shield ever.

The Dragon capsule might be big enough. I haven't really thought about it.

Pressure suits and an airlock would be good.

More testing needs to be done on the confinement. Put 2 people in a smallish sized sealed box with 500 days of provisions and one small toilet and see how it goes.  :P

That's something they'd want you to say though given some of the writers are Biosphere 2 engineers.  :-[

I guess they sort of have a point that in some ways it is easier than Apollo. Saturn V could've done this mission easily and this paper plays into the less launches of bigger rockets (larger payloads) mentality which many seem to be stuck in.

Tito is credited first in the paper. Seems the connection is there.

Bravo to the zero based approach! 100M to shake out the issues, a bargain.  the whole Mars architecture needs a relook anyway.

Way behind on this thread, but that said:

So what would gained by this approach?  what is the payoff?

tough to complain about the lack of radiation protection.... ;)

The tps can be tested without going to mars, and without using SLS, with significant on-earth testing possible.  Missing something?

A small capsule with the ECLSS could be strapped to ISS and tested there with a confined crew.  option to abort exists.  Adv/Disadv?

for radiation, a small capsule with ECLSS could be sent to L2 in case the 38 km/s is a stretch.  Option to abort exists.  Many more crew could be sent also for varying days.  Adv/disadv?

Free return trajectories...gravity assist already demonstrated? 

no rendezvous or maneuvers...gee Apollo did this in the 60s? and today?

no laser communications....slight delay in those instant messages or tweets for the social media impact...

humans or animals as a backup on this trip?

no propellant transfer to significantly increase injected mass..seems less risky than tps or ECLSS...but neglected in the study.... 

---
Hey, just realized that NASA could be providing much of this data with a focus on technology development rather than sorties....well...did sequester happen that killed all tech development once again?  Did sequester affect crew leo delivery time?  How will NASA contribute if SLS/ORION flyby is delayed?

Offline Lar

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Ok guys, let's try and to increase the quality of this thread.
Fixed that for ya! Just doing my bit to increase quality!

Do we have confirmation that Mr. Tito has already cut a check for 100K to NASA and executed an SAA? To me anyway, that increases credibility of this project/foundation, a LOT.

Even if this mission doesn't come off, Mr. Tito spending 100M of his own funds on studies and research and prototyping and maybe even hardware is goodness in and of itself, properly spent, this can advance the art significantly... So that's goodness.

not much longer now I guess?
« Last Edit: 02/27/2013 04:22 PM by Lar »
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Offline apace

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