Author Topic: Dennis Tito's Inspiration Mars Foundation Pre Announcement Thread  (Read 47033 times)

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #255 on: 02/24/2013 01:36 PM »
@Blackstar

Your post #254 today seems to be a quote. May I ask where is it quoted from?

Offline R7

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #256 on: 02/24/2013 02:43 PM »
where is it quoted from?

Please let it not be the IEEE paper.
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Offline Bob Shaw

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #257 on: 02/24/2013 03:29 PM »
Er... ...how do we know they're talking about a manned mission? Perhaps it's a demo flight by living creatures there and back again. Ideally, you'd kill off a sample and freeze it every now and then (75 soup-can containers containing shrimp, water, lights... ...freeze 'em hard and fast, one can a week, and do the science after splashdown). Or, just send seeds (animal sperm or plants) and distribute them a la the Moon Trees, one Mars Mouse and a Mars Tree to every school in the US...

Offline Hauerg

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #258 on: 02/24/2013 04:03 PM »
Er... ...how do we know they're talking about a manned mission? Perhaps it's a demo flight by living creatures there and back again. Ideally, you'd kill off a sample and freeze it every now and then (75 soup-can containers containing shrimp, water, lights... ...freeze 'em hard and fast, one can a week, and do the science after splashdown). Or, just send seeds (animal sperm or plants) and distribute them a la the Moon Trees, one Mars Mouse and a Mars Tree to every school in the US...

Because an unmanned mission would need to be a landing mission, and we "know" that life support is involved. So... oh, maybe we are back to Elons first vision of a mission to mars, the little plant thing....

Offline rklaehn

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #259 on: 02/24/2013 07:05 PM »
Also pretty clear that they need extensive NASA support for the ECLSS system. Dunno how they are going to spin up NASA to do this fast in the midst of a budget crisis. I'd also point out that politically this would be risky for NASA to do, because if NASA provides extensive support, then people are going to start to consider this a NASA mission and if it fails (especially if the life support fails) then NASA will get the blame.

The best you can hope from NASA for a mission like this is to refrain from active interference.
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Offline simonbp

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #260 on: 02/24/2013 07:38 PM »
Presumably, any NASA "help" would be through an unfunded SAA?

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #261 on: 02/24/2013 09:57 PM »
"It is assumed that the ECLSS hardware would be required to be designed, developed, and delivered to the Prime integrator approximately two years ahead of the launch date to accommodate system level integration, and sufficient testing to thoroughly vet the practical operating characteristics, limits and weaknesses. This drives an ECLSS hardware delivery date of February, 2016."

Also says:

"The volume and mass considerations have limited the crew number to two individuals. At a current value of roughly 7m3, the representative spacecraft free volume is deemed adequate. However, given the requirement for food and water storage and additional equipment and access, the free volume could shrink considerably. Prior studies we have performed indicated that for this mission duration, crew volumes of less than 3-5 m3 per person would border on untenable. Available crew volume is a significant consideration for this mission."


So one Dragon, two people.  The basic Dragon has a pressurised volume of 10 m3, 7m3 would be the free volume, which seems about right.  That is 3.5 m3 per person, which indeed "would border on the untenable" for 500 days. Reduce the volume still further with all that is needed for for those 500 days and it becomes impossible (except perhaps as a mere survival exercise).

Whoever this is quote is from seems to recognise this.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #262 on: 02/25/2013 12:08 AM »
Trying to put free volumes into terms people can visualise.

2.5 m3 ~ domestic shower cubical (or airline toilet)

3.7 m3 ~ domestic toilet cubical

6.3 m ~ walk in wardrobe

7.5 m3 ~ on-suite

15 m3  ~ domestic bathroom

23 m3 ~ very small hotel room, no bathroom

30 m3 ~ small hotel room & on-suite

Which of these do people think we can expect someone to live, exercise, prepare food, perform bodily functions and work in for 500 days?  Then double it for two people.




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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #263 on: 02/25/2013 12:21 AM »
You can use volume more efficiently in space. And it isn't linear with number of people, since you can have small dedicated volumes and larger shared volumes, using space more efficiently.

If this wasn't true (or if the opposite were true), then you'd simply segregate the two crew to each have half the total volume and no shared spaces.
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Offline Bubbinski

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #264 on: 02/25/2013 12:23 AM »
So if they only use the Dragon capsule on this Mars mission, the astronauts would be living in the equivalent of a toilet cubicle each for 500 plus days?  One of the Gemini crews spent two weeks with the equivalent of a phone booth each for a living space, but...a year and a half? 

I'm not sure how doable that is.  I would think some kind of habitat module would have to be involved.  But we'll see what they announce on Wednesday.
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline joek

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #265 on: 02/25/2013 12:25 AM »
Which of these do people think we can expect someone to live, exercise, prepare food, perform bodily functions and work in for 500 days?  Then double it for two people.

If you believe NASA's numbers, ~5.1m3/person "tolerable" for a 180-620 day mission duration.  Then again, a couple committed participants might do with less.
« Last Edit: 02/25/2013 12:26 AM by joek »

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #266 on: 02/25/2013 12:26 AM »
This isn't going to be a luxury cruise, that's for sure.
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #267 on: 02/25/2013 02:19 AM »
Which of these do people think we can expect someone to live, exercise, prepare food, perform bodily functions and work in for 500 days?  Then double it for two people.

If you believe NASA's numbers, ~5.1m3/person "tolerable" for a 180-620 day mission duration.  Then again, a couple committed participants might do with less.

 It is the tolerable lower limit.  Anything less is intolerable.  Five hundred days in the free space of a large walk-in wardrobe. It is also the free space. Triple it for pressurised volume. 

Offline sanman

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #268 on: 02/25/2013 05:21 AM »
I thought Musk famously exclaimed that if you tried to go to Mars in Dragon, you'd come back "bag" (not quite sure what it's British slang for, but I assume he meant all worn out)

So I don't see why he'd agree to participate in Tito's adventure unless there was scope to create some kind of improved hab for the journey.

And look at it this way - if Tito did succeed even on just a circum-Mars flyby, then it would pave the way for other jet-set millionaire adventurers to follow in those footsteps. This could be the new "climbing Everest" trip for the next generation of fearless intrepid achievers.


(Why don't Tito & Co just go to Antarctica and build a city there? At least it's closer and has a damn atmosphere, if nothing else)
« Last Edit: 02/25/2013 05:22 AM by sanman »

Offline Ludus

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Re: Inspiration Mars Foundation Press Conference
« Reply #269 on: 02/25/2013 05:37 AM »
This mission seems to be the Zubrin FH Mars mission minus the two FH launches needed to send the lander and the return vehicle. That design had a two man crew in a Dragon with a Bigelow module like a BEAM tucked into the Dragons trunk space.

.
Quote
Here are further answers relating to concerns that have been advanced.

1. Habitable volume.
As noted, if the Dragon capsule alone is used, this provides 5 m3 living volume per crew member, which compares to 2 m3 per crew on an Apollo capsule, 9 m3 per crew member on the Space Shuttle, or 8 m3 per crew member on a German U-Boat (Type VII, the fleet workhorse) during WWII. This would be uncomfortable, but ultimately, workable by a truly dedicated crew. However these limits can be transcended. The Dragon has a 14m3 cargo area hold below the aeroshield. Into this we could pack an inflatable hab module, in deflated form, but which if inflated, could be as much as 8 m in diameter and perhaps 10 m long, thereby providing 3 decks, with added volume of 502 m3 and a total floor space equal to 1.5 times as much as that in the Mars Society's MDRS or FMARS stations, which have proved adequate in size for crews of 6. After Trans Mars injection, the Dragon would pull away from the cargo section and turn around, then return to mate its docking hatch with one in the inflatable. It would then pull the inflatable out of the cargo hold, much as the Apollo command module pulled out the LEM. The inflatable could then be inflated. The other end of the inflatable would be attached to the tether, which is connected to the TMI stage, for use in creating artificial gravity.

Most of the points that Zubrin made for that idea would apply to Tito's mission. On balance this free return version would be safer. No greater radiation risk and less risk from failure of other critical systems since it's much simpler.

It seems likely that any obvious problems with that element of Zubrins plan would have been covered by now, which leads me to think this mission is plausible.

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