Author Topic: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia  (Read 140665 times)

Offline suncity

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #320 on: 02/17/2013 08:51 PM »
I think this is really simple: if you look at the contrails they are counter rotating. This is exactly what you see when any aircraft flies thru a condensation zone, two contrails are generated from the opposite wingtips because there is higher pressure under the wing & lower pressure on the upper side and some air "leaks" from below the wing to the upper side generating 2 vortexes.

The meteor was probably symmetrical and was generating some lift and left counter rotating contrails emanating from the "wingtips". This is not so unusual, just consider that Apollo and SpaceX's Dragon generate lifts due to their shape and offset center of gravity even if they don't look like a conventional airplane. The shape of the meteor was probably oblong, reminiscent of a lifting body, and it happened to fly in a stable asset.

No need to assume a clean split in 2 equally-sized fragment to explain the dual contrail.   

EDIT: I think that the post below from 360-180 perfectly explains the dual contrails: the rising hot air from the center of the meteor path split the initial single trail creating the 2 vortexes. Brilliant.   

Many videos seem to show that there was twin contrail from the beginning of reentry. Weird?

I've been thinking about this as well. Seems implausible to me that it was a binary from the moment it entered atmosphere or that it split into two roughly equal pieces so soon after entry. Also, I don't believe we've ever really seen a big meteor vapor trail like this from almost underneath. A unique vantage point.

I'm wondering if it was convection that split it in two. When you have a spherical mass of hot air (like a nuclear fireball), convective movement and resulting vacuum effects quickly produce a rotating toroidal cloud. Maybe what we see here is is what happens with a  "cylindrical" fireball? It splits into two, like a cross section of a toroidal cloud?
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 08:59 AM by suncity »

Offline the_roche_lobe

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #321 on: 02/17/2013 09:12 PM »
Propeller hat idea 1: It did skip elsewhere, broke and two pieces reentered
Propeller hat idea 2: Moon perturbed and broke it in the process.
Propeller hat idea 3: The Bugs have discovered a chain shot.


4. Binary/contact asteroid?

P
« Last Edit: 02/17/2013 09:13 PM by the_roche_lobe »

Offline smoliarm

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #322 on: 02/17/2013 09:15 PM »
Many videos seem to show that there was twin contrail from the beginning of reentry. Weird? Are the aerodynamic forces big enough to brake the meteor before contrail begins to form?

Propeller hat idea 1: It did skip elsewhere, broke and two pieces reentered

Propeller hat idea 2: Moon perturbed and broke it in the process.

Propeller hat idea 3: The Bugs have discovered a chain shot.

Viktor Gorohvski from Ural State University have just released the results of first analyses of the recovered fragments of meteorite:
http://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2013/02/17/n_2759605.shtml
It belongs to H-chondrites, not surprisingly as it is the most abundant type.
They are pretty brittle, e.g. you can crush H3 just with bare fingers. I did it many times - placing the sample in thin-wall Teflon tube and squeezing it then with fingers. So, it is like the weakest sandstone, even worse.
H5 and H6 are stronger, you can compare them with lowest grade concrete, poorly processed. Fingers aren't enough, but light hummer will do.

>>Many videos seem to show that there was twin contrail from the beginning of reentry. Weird?
Not weird at all, like I said they are not very robust.

>>Are the aerodynamic forces big enough to brake the meteor before contrail begins to form?
Yes, and not forget the gravitational forces - they are big enough, too.

>>Propeller hat idea 2: Moon perturbed and broke it in the process.
Earth can do this on its own :)

About another larger guy - DA14 - I read in the news (don't remember the exact ref) that NASA is going to look for signs of surface displacement. That is exactly it - as asteroid closes to Earth, the forces which alter its trajectory also try to alter its shape. It may crack :)
« Last Edit: 02/17/2013 09:49 PM by smoliarm »

Offline mr_magoo

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #323 on: 02/17/2013 09:36 PM »
It had the yield of the largest warhead carried by US nuclear submarines.   Lucky that it detonated high and wide of that town.

Offline smoliarm

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #324 on: 02/17/2013 09:43 PM »
...
No need to assume a clean split in 2 equally-sized fragment to explain the dual contrail.   
...

As I see it, there were two major fragments from the very beginning of contrail, they were spinning slowly in the opposite directions. During the flight, their mass was changing rapidly, especially when the glow started. At the end, they were clearly of different size (may be, by order of magnitude). The smaller one "went off" first - it was the first bright flash. About 1 sec later the large one exploded - it was the second and the brightest flash.
On some videos you can see that there were at least two more fragments, much smaller. they continued flight for a while, with much thinner trail, then they burst too in a small double flash.

Offline sanman

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #325 on: 02/18/2013 12:30 AM »
So tell me - I have a friend who comes from Ufa - how far is it located from the impact area?

It seems to me that when I look on a map, it's quite close, about 200 miles southwest of Chelyabinsk. But the meteor came down about 100 miles southwest of Chelyabinsk, didn't it?

Were other Russian cities affected by the blast?

Offline sanman

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #326 on: 02/18/2013 01:51 AM »
This vid gives quite a close up look at the contrails, so that you can see their shape in more detail:

http://goo.gl/RieBI

Hmm, had to use a shortener, since the filter here seems to be blocking me from posting the youtube URL directly.
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 02:01 AM by sanman »

Offline Antares

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #327 on: 02/18/2013 02:37 AM »
Fingers aren't enough, but light hummer will do.
::)


I think this is really simple....

The meteor was probably symmetrical
Sir Ockham called.  He wants his razor back.


There is literature that says parallel, simultaneous trails are due to the prior breakup of a single meteoroid.  They are very common with smaller meteors.  No reason it couldn't be for a 15m one as well.
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 02:42 AM by Antares »
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Offline 360-180

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #328 on: 02/18/2013 03:34 AM »
Convection current dragged up the middle of the cloud. lateral parts remained at its height. Therefore, when looking from the bottom seems to be two tracks. In fact, one track has been transformed like at atmospheric nuclear explosion appears mushroom cloud.
 
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 03:42 AM by 360-180 »

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #329 on: 02/18/2013 07:12 AM »
Convection current dragged up the middle of the cloud. lateral parts remained at its height. Therefore, when looking from the bottom seems to be two tracks. In fact, one track has been transformed like at atmospheric nuclear explosion appears mushroom cloud.

So my guess was right?

Offline bubbagret

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #330 on: 02/18/2013 07:17 AM »
Convection current dragged up the middle of the cloud. lateral parts remained at its height. Therefore, when looking from the bottom seems to be two tracks. In fact, one track has been transformed like at atmospheric nuclear explosion appears mushroom cloud.
 

Spot on.... I'm sure helped by the fact that a hypersonic object punched a relatively horizontal, tube shaped superheated hole in the atmosphere. It almost looks like the wake of a fast moving boat.
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 07:19 AM by bubbagret »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #331 on: 02/18/2013 08:04 AM »
Viktor Gorohvski from Ural State University have just released the results of first analyses of the recovered fragments of meteorite:
http://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2013/02/17/n_2759605.shtml
It belongs to H-chondrites, not surprisingly as it is the most abundant type.
They are pretty brittle, e.g. you can crush H3 just with bare fingers. I did it many times - placing the sample in thin-wall Teflon tube and squeezing it then with fingers. So, it is like the weakest sandstone, even worse.
H5 and H6 are stronger, you can compare them with lowest grade concrete, poorly processed. Fingers aren't enough, but light hummer will do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_chondrite

http://www.meteoris.de/class/H-Group.html
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Offline 360-180

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #332 on: 02/18/2013 09:14 AM »
And amazingly - the shock effect is quite mild

Found another video of Korkino. But the windows were broken. The delay 89s too.  0:07 flash,  1:36 shock wave.
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 09:18 AM by 360-180 »

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #333 on: 02/18/2013 09:45 AM »
[0:07 flash,  1:36 shock wave.

That is the 'perfect storm' that led to so many people being injured, IMHO.  There is the flash and you instinctively move towards it to assess what it was - is it a threat? About 90 seconds later, the windows get blown in by a supersonic shock-wave.
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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #334 on: 02/18/2013 10:22 AM »
Meteorite Fragments Found in Icy Urals Lake - Scientists

 The fragments of a meteorite that hit Russia’s Urals on Friday, injuring more than 1,000 people in the area, have been found by scientists in Lake Chebarkul, in the Chelyabinsk Region.

“We have just completed the study, we confirm that the particulate matters, found by our expedition in the area of Lake Chebarkul indeed have meteorite nature,” Viktor Grohovsky of the Urals Federal University said.
“This meteorite is an ordinary chondrite, it is a stony meteorite which contains some 10 percent of iron. It is most likely to be named Chebarkul meteorite,” Grohovsky said.

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20130217/179531203/Meteorite-Fragments-Found-in-Icy-Urals-Lake---Scientists.html
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Offline hektor

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #335 on: 02/18/2013 10:30 AM »
No damage to any airborne aircraft by shockwave reported ? amazing.

I would even have expected dead birds falling from the sky
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 10:37 AM by hektor »

Offline DLR

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #336 on: 02/18/2013 10:39 AM »
Could it be that impact events - especially those caused by small to mid-size objects - are more common than currently believed by the scientific mainstream?

Some scientists think that impacts are more common, but most do not leave any easily observable geophysical evidence because they occur over the oceans. They link major social and climatic change to impact events, including Noah's Great Flood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_Impact_Working_Group
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 10:40 AM by DLR »
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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #337 on: 02/18/2013 10:46 AM »
I would even have expected dead birds falling from the sky

Huh, why?

Offline R7

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #338 on: 02/18/2013 10:59 AM »
I would even have expected dead birds falling from the sky

Huh, why?

Indeed. It didn't kill people, smaller creatures are even more resilient.

Btw the convection/vortex explanation for twin contrails makes good sense IMO too.

edit:
Quote
Found another video of Korkino.

Again, nobody pays any attention to sudden very bright flash. What has happened to Duck'n'Cover  :)
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 11:01 AM by R7 »
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Offline hektor

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Re: Meteor Strikes Chelyabinsk, Russia
« Reply #339 on: 02/18/2013 11:57 AM »
Smaller creatures have smaller, more brittle bones.

More to the point: no report from any aircraft ?
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 11:59 AM by hektor »

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