Author Topic: Woodward's effect  (Read 284996 times)

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #480 on: 07/24/2015 05:40 PM »
I am not familiar with HN Theory, so I googled it and one of the first hits was this

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=BGYcivB1EtMC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=hn+theory&source=bl&ots=5FyhisGipj&sig=uG6dR2qTjB52btDbNGNP-dQmoSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAWoVChMIwtS8s6f0xgIVSAuQCh1X5gKA#v=onepage&q=hn%20theory&f=false

3.6 Hoyle Narlike Theory

In the 6th line they mention Mach's Principle.

Offline birchoff

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #481 on: 07/24/2015 07:11 PM »
its kinda sad that the EmDrive is sucking up most of the air. It is nice to see the theoretical picture of MET shaping up so nicely. Cant wait for the updated edition of Woodwards book. Wish there was some way we could speed up the tests on the new devices.

I must say though that I am a bit disappointed that there was no information about the new designs they plan on utilizing in their next test runs. Granted if I understand what Woodward was saying in the interview. They are waiting on the results of some computer modeling before they invest any time in manufacturing new designs. The only interesting information about what the new MET's would look like is that, It is Woodward's belief that they need to be smaller and placed in an array.


On a space applications note. if one were to assume that MET's can scale to be useful inspace propulsion for robotic and human missions. It occured to me that in all the sci-fi movies we have seen where their is some sort of exhaust coming out of the ship. You would instead have glowing radiators. The only thing I never liked about any of the more realistic depictions showing such radiators is that the reactor and radiators seem to be flimsily attached to the crew habitat. I get the motivation of putting the crew far away from the source of radioactive fission reactor. But considering that Space is already wickedly radioactive I think it is a little wierd to not assume that we would have come up with a better solution for shielding that would at least allow us to put the reactor and turbine closer to the hab in case the crew needs to fix something. The radiators can be off in the rear since the worst case scenario is they get punctured and it means that we would need to throttle down the reactor to account for the reduced cooling capacity.

Offline tchernik

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #482 on: 07/26/2015 02:01 AM »
As per the reported thrust, Mach effect thrusters are still in the race with the Emdrive. These things having very low thrust is not such a big deal for space applications, if the thrust is real.

Wasn't it Paul March who believed they could be manifestations of a same phenomenon?

Offline birchoff

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #483 on: 07/26/2015 02:44 AM »
As per the reported thrust, Mach effect thrusters are still in the race with the Emdrive. These things having very low thrust is not such a big deal for space applications, if the thrust is real.

Wasn't it Paul March who believed they could be manifestations of a same phenomenon?

Agreed. I am not so worried about the scaling of MET's the theoretical work that woodward has done and headi is building on lays a pretty convincing argument that the only problem with scaling thrust will be one of material science. that is, fining materials that not only have a strong piezoelectric effect but also a strong electrorestrictive effect and also can last a long time.

As for the emDrive as far as I am concerned the most that I am ok agreeing on is that there is most likely a real effect. How that effect gets scaled up is an entirely different question. What I am secretly hoping for is that both work for different theoretical reasons.

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #484 on: 07/28/2015 09:11 PM »
Live Blogging of Heidi Fern's presentation on Mach Effect, by Dr Bagel Bites

36 minutes agoNext up, Mach Thruster with Heidi Fearn. /u/DrBagelBites
35 minutes agoThis is not a Dean drive, and it is not a thermal effect. /u/DrBagelBites
33 minutes agoBrass disk, pzt stack held togeether by stainless steel bolt with an aluminum cap. /u/DrBagelBites
33 minutes agoAll in a Faraday cage.  /u/DrBagelBites
32 minutes agoUsing what seems like a torsion balance. /u/DrBagelBites
31 minutes agoUSC/ARC style thrust balance.  /u/DrBagelBites
31 minutes agoTalking about calibration of device using the balance. /u/DrBagelBites
30 minutes agoFlexural bearings were used.  /u/DrBagelBites
29 minutes ago
Showing graph of newtons v frequency.
Turn on, the torsion balance "swings" for a moment and then "swings" back /u/DrBagelBites
28 minutes agoOverlaid temperature in previous graph. Increasing in time as expected. /u/DrBagelBites
25 minutes agoWhy is it not a Dean drive? Dean drive relies on a sort of "ratcheting" effect. /u/DrBagelBites
23 minutes agoLearned that as it heats up, the resonant frequency changes. So, they tested by sweeping through a frequency range between two straight pulses at a single frequency. /u/DrBagelBites
22 minutes agoData was averaged. Forward-reverse thrust in order to cancel out some extraneous data. /u/DrBagelBites
21 minutes agoTwo accelerometers in each stack. /u/DrBagelBites
20 minutes agoBit of a spike mid-sweep. Thrust is still in noise. /u/DrBagelBites
19 minutes agoAt 180 V, there were multiple transient effects. /u/DrBagelBites
18 minutes ago
At 220-230 V, nothing really happened.
Pulse is happening transiently.  /u/DrBagelBites
17 minutes agoShows temperature vs effect. Little to no correlation. So, temperature is not responsible. /u/DrBagelBites
14 minutes agoWhy did one device not show data and the other one did? V and V2 were in phase on the device with the effect. Not in phase on the other. /u/DrBagelBites
14 minutes agoAround 37 and 35 kHz /u/DrBagelBites
12 minutes agoDiscussing the Mach effect equation now. /u/DrBagelBites
12 minutes agoQuantifies the magnitude of the predicted mass fluctuations in accelerated objects. /u/DrBagelBites
11 minutes ago Plug for Making Starships and Stargates. /u/DrBagelBites
10 minutes ago Talking about Mach's Principle and action at a distance and cosmology. /u/DrBagelBites
9 minutes ago Take limit of smooth fluid approximation of the universe, and you get Einstein field equations. /u/DrBagelBites
8 minutes ago Mass equation from HN-theory.  /u/DrBagelBites
8 minutes ago Thrust vs. voltage. Not linear, not quadratic, not quite cubic, fits V4 /u/DrBagelBites

Presentation cut short. Room is absolutely at capacity. /u/DrBagelBites





Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #485 on: 07/29/2015 01:33 AM »
Congrats to Heidi Fearn and James Woodward on finally publishing their paper.
This looks really promising and I hope it will finally get James work the popularity and funding that it needs.
Cudos to Gary Hudson and SSI for helping with the funding of this important research!

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #486 on: 09/05/2015 02:56 AM »
The Space Show radio program had an interview with Dr Heidi Fern, Mach Effect researcher...

http://thespaceshow.com/detail.asp?q=2545

"In the second segment, Robert Jacobson and I drove down to Cal St. Fullerton to see Dr. Woodward's lab and to talk with Dr. Heidi Fearn about their mach thruster work. The lab was very small & most the equipment was made by Dr. Woodward years ago. Heidi showed us a mach thruster and explained how to see the effect on the computer that measures the small amount of movement from the thruster. She explained it very well so while you won't be able to see what she is talking about, I believe you can easily follow along. We walked over to the vacuum cylinder which she explained, she then talked about the floating tables and why the need for them, plus we talked about scaling up mach thrusters. I asked her several questions about their out of the box work at Cal St. Fullerton, students, delivering papers, and her reception by her peers. You will find her responses to these questions to be very interesting. Later during the tour, she turned on the experiment and Robert and I could clearly see the computer recording the movement over the background noise. We have a cell phone picture of it which I will put on the blog for this show. Near the end of our 45 minute tour and discussion with Heidi, we asked her about funding and timelines. She suggested a timeline for going to Alpha Centauri which sounded way too soon to me but she explained why she thought it was plausible."

Dr. Heidi Fearn
Dr. Heidi Fearn is at California State University in Fullerton, CA. Her areas of special interest include Electromagnetism, Atomic, Molecular and Optical Physics and Theoretical Physics. She works with Dr. Jim Woodward on research with Mach Thruster technology. You can see her most impressive CV with her list of publications and papers at http://physics.fullerton.edu/~heidi.

Online Stormbringer

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #487 on: 09/05/2015 04:27 PM »
1:08~

Two independent replication efforts  have positive results and will publish soon. Researchers in Austria and Canada.

EDIT:  and she started the thing to demonstrate it to the interviewers. it is my understanding that they used to have an issue with burning the stacks out. I guess they no longer have that issue or else she would not waste a PZT stack on a demonstration for an interview.

the advanced and retarded waves theory have been successfully folded into Dr Woodwards older equations.

^1:17 or so

Hehehe: (Time travel) She's embarrassed by the connotations of advanced and retarded waves. and a bit uncertain.
« Last Edit: 09/05/2015 05:09 PM by Stormbringer »
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Offline Star One

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #488 on: 09/05/2015 06:53 PM »
Why does this get so little interest compared to the EM drive?

Offline flux_capacitor

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #489 on: 09/05/2015 07:12 PM »
Why does this get so little interest compared to the EM drive?

I guess because of two things:

- thrust magnitude vs background noise: The EmDrive has repeatedly reached several hundreds of millinewtons, while Woodward is stuck in the micronewton range. Even if he managed to carefully get rid of spurious effects and repeatedly showed thrust signatures above the noise, I think people are waiting for some clear scaling.

- Nobody in the scientific community paid attention to Shawyer's EmDrive for decades before the replication experiment done at NASA JSC by Eagleworks, which triggered the interest. Even the experiments done by NWPU in China didn't change anything before Eagleworks' results.

So it is a good think Woodward's METs are currently investigated by other scientists, with a peer-reviewed paper in the end. Let's hope it will also trigger the interest worldwide.

BTW what did Heidi Fearn say about "how to scale the thrust" in the future?

Online Stormbringer

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #490 on: 09/05/2015 07:41 PM »
There is stuff about scaling prediction work towards the end from various angles. I didn't understand it on my first run through it because i am not where i can listen to it with my full attention. I think it had to do with checking various forms of scaling equations verses what their observed scaling is from the experimental data so far. Some of the perspective scaling equations hit it from a frequency perspective and others use different parameters.

i will try to listen to it again with peace and quiet and fewer distraction going on later.

its at the very end of the recording just before the bit about funding requests and contest entries like the break out prize thing.
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Offline aceshigh

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #491 on: 09/06/2015 06:24 PM »
Why does this get so little interest compared to the EM drive?

Not sure... participants in the EM Drive thread are discussing swimming in space without no new physics, and yet Dr Heidi Fern says in the interview that no new physics are used in Mach Effect... that the retarded waves from the future thing, which comply with conservation laws, are inn the cover of a Wheelers book...

Online Stormbringer

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #492 on: 09/07/2015 12:59 AM »


We haven't found evidence of gravitons and relativity works without gravitons. Relativity was supposed to have Mach's principle folded into it but Einstein was forced to give up on that.

But i read about Zvi levi, Lance Dixon and the rest of that team's Sakurai prize winning work with amplitudes and unitarity Where Dr Dixon said this:

Quote
Along the way, Zvi, John Joseph and Henrik, thanks to the time-honored method of “just staring at” the loop integrand provided by unitarity, also stumbled on a new property of gauge theory amplitudes, which tightly couples them to gravity. They found that gauge theory amplitudes can be written in such a way that their kinematic part obeys relations that are structurally identical to the Jacobi identities known to fans of Lie algebras. This so-called color-kinematics duality, when achieved, leads to a simple “double copy” prescription for computing amplitudes in suitable theories of gravity: Take the gauge theory amplitude, remove the color factors and square the kinematic numerator factors. Crudely, a graviton looks very much like two gluons laid on top of each other. If you’ve ever looked at the Feynman rules for gravity, you’d be shocked that such a simple prescription could ever work, but it does.


http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/10/03/guest-post-lance-dixon-on-calculating-amplitudes/

So what if the gravity/inertia/mach's principle mechanism works on the strong force since at least superficially a graviton looks like two gluons on top of each other? what if it's not so superficial a resemblance?

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Offline birchoff

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #493 on: 09/07/2015 07:05 PM »
Why does this get so little interest compared to the EM drive?

I guess because of two things:

- thrust magnitude vs background noise: The EmDrive has repeatedly reached several hundreds of millinewtons, while Woodward is stuck in the micronewton range. Even if he managed to carefully get rid of spurious effects and repeatedly showed thrust signatures above the noise, I think people are waiting for some clear scaling.

- Nobody in the scientific community paid attention to Shawyer's EmDrive for decades before the replication experiment done at NASA JSC by Eagleworks, which triggered the interest. Even the experiments done by NWPU in China didn't change anything before Eagleworks' results.

So it is a good think Woodward's METs are currently investigated by other scientists, with a peer-reviewed paper in the end. Let's hope it will also trigger the interest worldwide.

BTW what did Heidi Fearn say about "how to scale the thrust" in the future?

most of the scaling they talk about exploiting is frequency based. the problem is the frequency dependency in the equations is higher than the experimental results. Doesnt mean that there isnt a frequency dependence, Since they have done work showing that their is a clear frequency dependence. According to the woodward interview it looks like they plan on investing time in modeling to figure out a better design to do more scaling tests. They suspect that the frequency scaling is to the 3rd power of the frequency; where as the equations show a higher power for the frequency.

Online Stormbringer

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #494 on: 09/07/2015 07:50 PM »
the equations may be wrong but it may be that the equations are right and thier design is not optimized and not tapping the full potential?
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Offline Mezzenile

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #495 on: 09/23/2015 01:48 PM »
In his work James Woodward refers to the landmark paper of D. W. Sciama :"ON THE ORIGIN OF INERTIA" published in 1953 by the Royal Astronomical Society. In this paper Sciama constructs a tentative theory to account for the inertial properties of matter taking the Mach's principle as a guide.

The summary at the begining of this paper ends as follows :"The present theory is intended only as a model. A more complete, but necessarily more complicated theory will be described in another paper".

Does somebody know if this announced second paper on the subject of Inertia exists and how can it be retrieved ?

« Last Edit: 09/23/2015 03:59 PM by Mezzenile »

Offline flux_capacitor

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #496 on: 09/23/2015 04:06 PM »
In his work James Woodward refers to the landmark paper of D. W. Sciama :"ON THE ORIGIN OF INERTIA" published in 1953 by the Royal Astronomical Society. In this paper Sciama constructs a tentative theory to account for the inertial properties of matter taking the Mach's principle as a guide.

The summary at the begginning of this paper ends as follows :"The present theory is intended only as a model. A more complete, but necessarily more complicated theory will be described in another paper".

Does somebody know if this announced second paper on the subject of Inertia exists and how can it be retrieved ?

Yes, see Wikipedia:
"A formulation of Mach's principle was first proposed as a vector theory of gravity, modeled on Maxwell's formalism for electrodynamics, by Dennis Sciama in 1953, who then reformulated it in a tensor formalism equivalent to general relativity in 1964."

The first paper:
Sciama, D. W. (1953). "On the Origin of Inertia". Royal Astronomical Society 113: 34–42. doi:10.1093/mnras/113.1.34

The second, more refined paper:
Sciama, D.W. (1964). "The Physical Structure of General Relativity". Rev. Mod. Phys. 36 (1): 463–469. doi:10.1103/RevModPhys.36.463

« Last Edit: 09/23/2015 04:07 PM by flux_capacitor »

Offline Mezzenile

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #497 on: 09/23/2015 05:18 PM »
Yes, see Wikipedia:
"A formulation of Mach's principle was first proposed as a vector theory of gravity, modeled on Maxwell's formalism for electrodynamics, by Dennis Sciama in 1953, who then reformulated it in a tensor formalism equivalent to general relativity in 1964."

The first paper:
Sciama, D. W. (1953). "On the Origin of Inertia". Royal Astronomical Society 113: 34–42. doi:10.1093/mnras/113.1.34

The second, more refined paper:
Sciama, D.W. (1964). "The Physical Structure of General Relativity". Rev. Mod. Phys. 36 (1): 463–469. doi:10.1103/RevModPhys.36.463

Thank you for the link.
« Last Edit: 09/23/2015 05:23 PM by Mezzenile »

Offline dustinthewind

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #498 on: 09/24/2015 08:19 AM »
I did my thesis on the nature of the magnetic field and we were trying to detect if it could rotate axially.  The idea was to take a solenoid and rotate it axially and imagine the magnetic field lines would rotate axially with it.   As a result by (v x B) of these rotating magnetic field lines an electric field should come off the solenoid with a 1/r^2 dependence.  We set up a capacitor and estimated what we should see.  The experiment was done with a permanent magnet and solenoid.  Both resulted in a negative indication of magnetic field line rotation.  After some investigation it became more obvious that the magnetic field shouldn't rotate but rather radiates to change orientation.  The nature of information is to radiate in a radial direction and if you look into the electric field of a charge moving in a circle, you will notice the electric field doesn't rotate with the charge.  The magnetic field being what describes the relativistic behavior of the electric field (Edward Purcell Electricity and Magnetism: electric field pancaking) it becomes obvious that the magnetic field of a charge also can't rotate but rather also radiates to change orientation. 

After this it became evident the speed limits in changes of the magnetic field (time retarded information) and that electromagnetic propulsion should be possible.  I began with a diagram of current in two wires and mapped out the time retarded behavior of two wires a distance of 1/4 lambda which had their currents 90 degrees out of phase and got a unidirectional force.  Later, it was realized a current flows because of charge separation and current flow induces charge separation so this was later included in the wire diagram.  A unidirectional force from the static charge was also found but appears to oppose the magnetic unidirectional force on the wires.  It turns out this dual wire diagram is a phased array antenna and indeed you do get propulsion even with the opposing forces (magnetic and static electric) which is photon propulsion.  Phased array antennas can direct radiation in desired directions just by modifying the phase of currents in straight antenna.  I latter stumbled across a patent, the EM drive and the Woodward effect which I highly suspect is connected to what I am dealing with.  No idea what is behind the EM drive but maybe they are connected. 

After watching the EM drive for a while it became evident of a way to cancel the opposing static electric force using resonating cavities.  That is if I take the antenna of the phased array antenna and loop it then for a standing wave I cancel the charge separation and only the magnetic force works.  This happens inside of a resonant cavity for transverse electric fields, one mode being TE011 for a cylindrical cavity.  Instead of energy alternating in the cavity between current and charge separation (magnetic and capacitance) you get energy alternating between current and light stored in the cavity (J and -dB/dt=light=curl E).  To excite this mode I suspect we would need an antenna inside the cavity shaped in the shape of the mode we want to excite.  That is the wire should be in the shape of the mode induced and 1/4 lambda from the inside plate for constructive interference of reflected energy.  I don't consider myself an expert in microwave engineering so remember that.  I am using my intuition but I know the electric field will be oriented in the direction of the wire and that will induce the currents in the cavity. 

The other issue is matching the frequency of two adjacent cavities.  For TE modes with no current flow from the flat circle plate to the side walls we don't have to worry about electrical connectivity of one of the end plates.  Changing the distance of an end plate changes the frequency in the cavity.  We can monitor the frequency in one cavity and match it with the other cavity.  We can then control the phase to the current by the phase of the injected radiation and also by increasing or decreasing the frequency of one cavity by moving the cavity plate then moving the plate back and leaving the light slightly out of phase  (probably easier to control the phase of the injected radiation).  Current in one cavity perceives the current in the lower cavity as repulsive (magnetic).  The cavity plates are separated by a distance of 1/4 lambda (wavelength).  Due to information delay of apparent current and the phase relation the current in the other cavity perceives its partner to be attractive.  So we have an asymmetry in force over complete cycles (see paper 1 for diagrams).  Essentially we are playing with time and space and taking advantage that the information can not travel beyond a speed limit of light.  Considering only the magnetic force is now pulling, we may get forces beyond photon propulsion and we may find out there is a connection to space time manipulation or gravitational in nature.  What is interesting about the dual cavity experiment proposed is that there might be no radiation (dynamic magnetic field -dB/dt) emitted as the radiation should be trapped inside the cavities. At the same time there isn't really a reason why the magnetic force between the cavities shouldn't be there as they should still observe the relativistic dipole distribution of current associated with the static magnetic field.  This static magnetic field should be observable outside a resonant cavity just by holding up a magnetic field sensor to the base.  A voltage should be observed to osculate at the frequency of the current in the cavity.  This is because the magnetic field sensor uses current in motion inside the sensor to sense the dipole redistribution of other currents (the magnetic field) (i.e. dipole electric fields and magnetic fields both decrease by 1/r^3) (see paper 1). 

I would like to propose this as a possible test of the Woodward effect if indeed it is just dealing with time retarded information.  Dual resonant cavities (paper 1) The file is attached below as "magnetic propulsion.pdf".  I think it has potential and appears simple enough to allow understanding of what is happening.  Power in simplicity.

There is a possibly related patent I mentioned earlier but does not deal with resonant cavities though should be possible with radio frequencies and dielectrics: http://goo.gl/khN10H (Edited link to be shorter.)

I also believe DavidWaite is also onto the same thing and you can see his video here:
In his case he flips the solenoid and the static electric field so that they both provide propulsion in the same direction but I suspect in his case you are also dealing with emitted radiation.

If I had the money or connections I would be trying to develop this myself but I am not that fortunate and I don't want to see this possibility pass us by.  I'd at least like to make the connections to see if it will really work. 
« Last Edit: 09/27/2015 07:03 AM by dustinthewind »

Online Stormbringer

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #499 on: 09/24/2015 01:15 PM »
just curious have you seen the NBF article:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/08/theory-explaining-electromagnetic.html

it seems topical to your post.

also in away topical to Woodward's book where he is talking about electron modeling and the problems of eliminating divergences or infinities.
« Last Edit: 09/24/2015 01:16 PM by Stormbringer »
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