Author Topic: Woodward's effect  (Read 288324 times)

Offline sanman

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1100 on: 11/02/2017 06:27 AM »
Another thought I had in my head - if there is some Machian interaction with "gravinertial field" - then could anything be detected through the technique of Atom Interferometry?

After all, Atom Lasers / Atom Optics is extremely precise, and should also be sensitive to mass fluctuations.

Why not try to make use of this technique to try to detect and characterize any mass fluctuation phenomena that might be happening?




Note that while LIGO is located at a vast distance away from the large gravitational wave sources (astrophysical phenomena) it's detecting, an atom interferometer could be positioned very close to the MEGA apparatus, howsoever tiny its possible mass fluctuations may be.
« Last Edit: 11/02/2017 05:31 PM by sanman »

Offline tdperk

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Offline sanman

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1102 on: 11/15/2017 02:53 PM »
Regarding stealing entropy, or energy from the overall expansion of the universe - thrust or travel has to be in a specific direction, and so  if you're stealing, then technically you're stealing from the overall universe with respect to a particular axis of it.

Couldn't it be possible that you're still increasing the overall entropy of the universe in the remaining axes, other than the one you've stolen from?

Anyone?
« Last Edit: 11/15/2017 02:54 PM by sanman »

Online WarpTech

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1103 on: 11/15/2017 04:06 PM »
I've been working on understanding the mechanics of the MEGA Drive. I see several engineering issues regarding the design and setup.

1. The SM-111, 19mm x 2mm disks are rated to operate at about 25W maximum power. In the MEGA Drive application, they operate at resonance up to 200+ Volts. These disks have a resonant resistance < 2 Ohms per the MFGR.

P = V2/R = 20,000 W

So in the application, the D.U.T. is being driven to 1000x its rated power. Hmm... I wonder why they don't last long.

EDIT: If it's true that the input power is only 100W, then the resistance at resonance is 3200 Ohms, not <2 Ohms, per the MFGR's spec. I assume the impedance goes up as the frequency goes down when the massive end caps are added. It will be fun to test it myself and see.

2. In the video, Prof. Woodward shows a 1-Line diagram for the setup. The On/Off relay is ahead of the power amplifier, and a step-up transformer of all things is connected directly to the D.U.T.  A transformer has a very high leakage inductance and a high impedance compared to the D.U.T. I would not be surprised if the big Transients at Turn-on and Turn-off are simply the flyback energy from the leakage inductance dumping the energy into the D.U.T.

EDIT: The test setup I see shows that the equipment is on a table, approximately 2 meters from the D.U.T inside the vacuum chamber. The leads to the device look like about 20 AWG wire. That's fine for 0.5 Amps, but when I examine the voltage trace, it shows the voltage collapsing at the D.U.T. during turn on, and during resonance. So when the device hits resonance and is trying to draw more power, the in-line resistance is preventing it from doing so. I really think it is likely the transients are due to the XFMR and these long, thin wires.

3. In the PZT stack they put 2 thinner disks of the same SM-111 material to be used as an accelerometer, but I don't see how it actually measures acceleration. What I think it measures is the pressure exerted on those disks. She also calls it a Stress sensor, which I think is more accurate. In that regard, if the PZT stack is supposed to drive the mass variation into resonance to get thrust, doesn't the addition of the 2 extra disks which absorb those fluctuations, reduce the mass fluctuations and the thrust? I would think so. In addition, as the device heats up, the pressure on those disks increases and so they will inherently have a thermally drifting DC offset.

I have applied my QG model and have determined that overall, the MEGA Drive idea is a good one and it should work. However, I find the engineering of the drive could use some improvement. Therefore, I'm working on building a couple of thrusters of my own using bigger PZT disks that can handle 3X more power. Then I will design a optimized driving circuit and put everything, including the batteries in one faraday cage box. Hopefully, this will scale the thrust several orders of magnitude and get the measurements out of the mud.
« Last Edit: 11/16/2017 04:49 AM by WarpTech »

Offline Bob012345

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1104 on: 11/15/2017 05:55 PM »
I've been working on understanding the mechanics of the MEGA Drive. I see several engineering issues regarding the design and setup.

1. The SM-111, 19mm x 2mm disks are rated to operate at about 25W maximum power. In the MEGA Drive application, they operate at resonance up to 200+ Volts. These disks have a resonant resistance < 2 Ohms per the MFGR.

P = V2/R = 20,000 W

So in the application, the D.U.T. is being driven to 1000x its rated power. Hmm... I wonder why they don't last long.

2. In the video, Prof. Woodward shows a 1-Line diagram for the setup. The On/Off relay is ahead of the power amplifier, and a step-up transformer of all things is connected directly to the D.U.T.  A transformer has a very high leakage inductance and a high impedance compared to the D.U.T. I would not be surprised if the big Transients at Turn-on and Turn-off are simply the flyback energy from the leakage inductance dumping the energy into the D.U.T.

3. In the PZT stack they put 2 thinner disks of the same SM-111 material to be used as an accelerometer, but I don't see how it actually measures acceleration. What I think it measures is the pressure exerted on those disks. In that regard, if the PZT stack is supposed to drive the mass variation into resonance to get thrust, doesn't the addition of the 2 extra disks which absorb those fluctuations, reduce the mass fluctuations and the thrust? I would think so. In addition, as the device heats up, the pressure on those disks increases and so they will inherently have a thermally drifting DC offset.

I have applied by QG model and have determined that overall, the MEGA Drive idea is a good one and it should work. However, I find the engineering of the drive could use some improvement. Therefore, I'm working on building a couple of thrusters of my own using bigger PZT disks that can handle 3X more power. Then I will design a optimized driving circuit and put everything, including the batteries in one faraday cage box. Hopefully, this will scale the thrust several orders of magnitude and get the measurements out of the mud.

I've asked before and generally I'm ignored but the question is if there are fundamentally better ways to manipulate the energy density to produce the MACH effect and are they investigating that question or are they just planning on taking PZT stacks to the limits?

Offline Bob012345

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1105 on: 11/15/2017 05:58 PM »
Regarding stealing entropy, or energy from the overall expansion of the universe - thrust or travel has to be in a specific direction, and so  if you're stealing, then technically you're stealing from the overall universe with respect to a particular axis of it.

Couldn't it be possible that you're still increasing the overall entropy of the universe in the remaining axes, other than the one you've stolen from?

Anyone?

Who says it has to be in any specific direction? My take is that it's arbitrary, that the MACH effect itself is directionless and has to do with the distant universe and what you do with mass fluctuations, i.e. accelerate, is up to you. I think you can apply the mass fluctuations, which are a scalar not vector quantity, in any desired direction.

Online WarpTech

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1106 on: 11/15/2017 06:00 PM »
I've been working on understanding the mechanics of the MEGA Drive. I see several engineering issues regarding the design and setup.

1. The SM-111, 19mm x 2mm disks are rated to operate at about 25W maximum power. In the MEGA Drive application, they operate at resonance up to 200+ Volts. These disks have a resonant resistance < 2 Ohms per the MFGR.

P = V2/R = 20,000 W

So in the application, the D.U.T. is being driven to 1000x its rated power. Hmm... I wonder why they don't last long.

2. In the video, Prof. Woodward shows a 1-Line diagram for the setup. The On/Off relay is ahead of the power amplifier, and a step-up transformer of all things is connected directly to the D.U.T.  A transformer has a very high leakage inductance and a high impedance compared to the D.U.T. I would not be surprised if the big Transients at Turn-on and Turn-off are simply the flyback energy from the leakage inductance dumping the energy into the D.U.T.

3. In the PZT stack they put 2 thinner disks of the same SM-111 material to be used as an accelerometer, but I don't see how it actually measures acceleration. What I think it measures is the pressure exerted on those disks. In that regard, if the PZT stack is supposed to drive the mass variation into resonance to get thrust, doesn't the addition of the 2 extra disks which absorb those fluctuations, reduce the mass fluctuations and the thrust? I would think so. In addition, as the device heats up, the pressure on those disks increases and so they will inherently have a thermally drifting DC offset.

I have applied by QG model and have determined that overall, the MEGA Drive idea is a good one and it should work. However, I find the engineering of the drive could use some improvement. Therefore, I'm working on building a couple of thrusters of my own using bigger PZT disks that can handle 3X more power. Then I will design a optimized driving circuit and put everything, including the batteries in one faraday cage box. Hopefully, this will scale the thrust several orders of magnitude and get the measurements out of the mud.

I've asked before and generally I'm ignored but the question is if there are fundamentally better ways to manipulate the energy density to produce the MACH effect and are they investigating that question or are they just planning on taking PZT stacks to the limits?

I don't know everything others are working on, only that progress has been too slow for my liking. I'm personally working on understanding the fundamentals in terms of my own QG model, so I can engineer a MEGA Drive to get the thrust out of the mud. In that regard, the issues I raised above are where I'm currently at. It's a work in progress. I should probably have some results sometime after the holidays. My metal work is being done by a machinist friend of mine, and I hope to get the machined parts back sometime in the next 2 to 3 weeks. Then I can assemble and start testing my driver circuit.

Offline Bob012345

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1107 on: 11/15/2017 06:12 PM »
I've been working on understanding the mechanics of the MEGA Drive. I see several engineering issues regarding the design and setup.

1. The SM-111, 19mm x 2mm disks are rated to operate at about 25W maximum power. In the MEGA Drive application, they operate at resonance up to 200+ Volts. These disks have a resonant resistance < 2 Ohms per the MFGR.

P = V2/R = 20,000 W

So in the application, the D.U.T. is being driven to 1000x its rated power. Hmm... I wonder why they don't last long.

2. In the video, Prof. Woodward shows a 1-Line diagram for the setup. The On/Off relay is ahead of the power amplifier, and a step-up transformer of all things is connected directly to the D.U.T.  A transformer has a very high leakage inductance and a high impedance compared to the D.U.T. I would not be surprised if the big Transients at Turn-on and Turn-off are simply the flyback energy from the leakage inductance dumping the energy into the D.U.T.

3. In the PZT stack they put 2 thinner disks of the same SM-111 material to be used as an accelerometer, but I don't see how it actually measures acceleration. What I think it measures is the pressure exerted on those disks. In that regard, if the PZT stack is supposed to drive the mass variation into resonance to get thrust, doesn't the addition of the 2 extra disks which absorb those fluctuations, reduce the mass fluctuations and the thrust? I would think so. In addition, as the device heats up, the pressure on those disks increases and so they will inherently have a thermally drifting DC offset.

I have applied by QG model and have determined that overall, the MEGA Drive idea is a good one and it should work. However, I find the engineering of the drive could use some improvement. Therefore, I'm working on building a couple of thrusters of my own using bigger PZT disks that can handle 3X more power. Then I will design a optimized driving circuit and put everything, including the batteries in one faraday cage box. Hopefully, this will scale the thrust several orders of magnitude and get the measurements out of the mud.

I've asked before and generally I'm ignored but the question is if there are fundamentally better ways to manipulate the energy density to produce the MACH effect and are they investigating that question or are they just planning on taking PZT stacks to the limits?

I don't know everything others are working on, only that progress has been too slow for my liking. I'm personally working on understanding the fundamentals in terms of my own QG model, so I can engineer a MEGA Drive to get the thrust out of the mud. In that regard, the issues I raised above are where I'm currently at. It's a work in progress. I should probably have some results sometime after the holidays. My metal work is being done by a machinist friend of mine, and I hope to get the machined parts back sometime in the next 2 to 3 weeks. Then I can assemble and start testing my driver circuit.

Great! I encourage you to think of different ways energy can be manipulated as it is in the PZT stacks. Maybe you'll find some conduit that's easier, cheaper and more powerful.

Online WarpTech

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1108 on: 11/15/2017 06:20 PM »
Great! I encourage you to think of different ways energy can be manipulated as it is in the PZT stacks. Maybe you'll find some conduit that's easier, cheaper and more powerful.

This is what I have... See Milonni, The Quantum Vacuum. Sec. 5.4 for the detailed Math.
« Last Edit: 11/15/2017 06:20 PM by WarpTech »

Offline sanman

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1109 on: 11/15/2017 06:30 PM »
Regarding stealing entropy, or energy from the overall expansion of the universe - thrust or travel has to be in a specific direction, and so  if you're stealing, then technically you're stealing from the overall universe with respect to a particular axis of it.

Couldn't it be possible that you're still increasing the overall entropy of the universe in the remaining axes, other than the one you've stolen from?

Anyone?

Who says it has to be in any specific direction? My take is that it's arbitrary, that the MACH effect itself is directionless and has to do with the distant universe and what you do with mass fluctuations, i.e. accelerate, is up to you. I think you can apply the mass fluctuations, which are a scalar not vector quantity, in any desired direction.

Apologies, perhaps I wasn't clear - I meant that each linear oscillation is occurring in a specific axial direction, and therefore if some kind of energy or entropy theft is occurring at the expense of the rest of the universe, then each little Action-Reaction interaction with the rest of the universe is happening in a specific axial direction. Do you agree with that much?
« Last Edit: 11/15/2017 06:37 PM by sanman »

Offline Bob012345

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1110 on: 11/15/2017 06:34 PM »
Great! I encourage you to think of different ways energy can be manipulated as it is in the PZT stacks. Maybe you'll find some conduit that's easier, cheaper and more powerful.

This is what I have... See Milonni, The Quantum Vacuum. Sec. 5.4 for the detailed Math.

Thanks, I'll have to find a copy. I wonder whether by constant they mean just magnitude since acceleration is a vector.

Offline Bob012345

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1111 on: 11/15/2017 06:37 PM »
Regarding stealing entropy, or energy from the overall expansion of the universe - thrust or travel has to be in a specific direction, and so  if you're stealing, then technically you're stealing from the overall universe with respect to a particular axis of it.

Couldn't it be possible that you're still increasing the overall entropy of the universe in the remaining axes, other than the one you've stolen from?

Anyone?

Who says it has to be in any specific direction? My take is that it's arbitrary, that the MACH effect itself is directionless and has to do with the distant universe and what you do with mass fluctuations, i.e. accelerate, is up to you. I think you can apply the mass fluctuations, which are a scalar not vector quantity, in any desired direction.

Apologies, perhaps I wasn't clear - I meant that each linear oscillation is occurring in a specific axial direction, and therefore if some kind of energy or entropy theft is occurring at the expense of the rest of the universe, then each little interaction with the rest of the universe is happening in a specific axial direction. Do you agree with that much?

I think so with the caveat that one can change what direction one wants arbitrarily.

Offline sanman

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1112 on: 11/15/2017 06:42 PM »
I think so with the caveat that one can change what direction one wants arbitrarily.

Oh sure, I'm with you there - just a matter of which way you choose to point your device. I think we even previously discussed what could happen if you had a device that twisted back and forth while doing the mass fluctuations. Maybe you're doing some artificial frame-dragging in that situation.

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1113 on: 11/16/2017 01:21 AM »
Version 3 of the asymmetric shaker.  The arduino board is not capable of providing enough power for the shaker so I had to use a very small 3W amplifier. Finally I am getting useful data.

I was able to find a frequency that shows similar "thrust" results as a mach effect thruster. I have included a simple 1 second moving average to show how a vibrating device can return false positive thrust results on a torsional pendulum.

« Last Edit: 11/16/2017 12:46 PM by Monomorphic »

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1114 on: 11/16/2017 01:57 AM »
Version 3 of the asymmetric shaker.  The arduino board is not capable of providing enough power for the shaker so I had to use a very small 3W amplifier. Finally I am getting useful data.

I was able to find a frequency that shows similar "thrust" results as a mach effect thruster. I have included a simple 1 second moving average to show how a vibrating device can return false positive thrust results on torsional pendulum.

Jamie,

Can you share more data please?

Frequency of the oscillation/shaker.
Snapshot of the input signal voltage and current at the driving frequency.
Mass at each end.
Composition of the masses at each end?
Pulse width modulation?
Duty cycle?
Did you determine the resonant frequency of the shaker with the given masses?

Thanks!

Offline PotomacNeuron

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1115 on: 11/16/2017 02:07 AM »
Version 3 of the asymmetric shaker.  The arduino board is not capable of providing enough power for the shaker so I had to use a very small 3W amplifier. Finally I am getting useful data.

I was able to find a frequency that shows similar "thrust" results as a mach effect thruster. I have included a simple 1 second moving average to show how a vibrating device can return false positive thrust results on torsional pendulum.

To make the data more rigorous, you may want to align your test bed to other angles with the Earth's magnetic field and test again, to assess the influence of Lorentz force to your experiment. This is easier and cheaper than using Helmholtz coils. Best if with 8 angles, but I think 3 or 4 are good enough.
« Last Edit: 11/16/2017 03:00 AM by PotomacNeuron »
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Offline tdperk

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1116 on: 11/16/2017 09:59 AM »
Version 3 of the asymmetric shaker.  The arduino board is not capable of providing enough power for the shaker so I had to use a very small 3W amplifier. Finally I am getting useful data.

I was able to find a frequency that shows similar "thrust" results as a mach effect thruster. I have included a simple 1 second moving average to show how a vibrating device can return false positive thrust results on torsional pendulum.

It's not like a Mach Effect device trace.  The baseline does not return to the same level after the drive period.  I believe you are seeing stiction or play in your bearings or another part of the assembly.

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1117 on: 11/16/2017 12:12 PM »
It's not like a Mach Effect device trace.  The baseline does not return to the same level after the drive period.  I believe you are seeing stiction or play in your bearings or another part of the assembly.

I've pulled out just 5 pulses and compared it to the mach effect trace. Looks very similar to me. The torsional pendulum is suspended by wire so there are no bearings.

This was the very first run with the new 3W amplifier. I am pretty confident that with a little work honing in on the right frequency, I will be able to produce traces identical to the mach effect. I suppose I will have then invented a ~1uN space engine with a 3W bass shaker.   ;)
« Last Edit: 11/16/2017 12:13 PM by Monomorphic »

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1118 on: 11/16/2017 12:35 PM »
Can you share more data please?

Frequency of the oscillation/shaker.
Snapshot of the input signal voltage and current at the driving frequency.
Mass at each end.
Composition of the masses at each end?
Pulse width modulation?
Duty cycle?
Did you determine the resonant frequency of the shaker with the given masses?

This was the very first run where I was testing the new 3W amplifier. I was entering frequencies at random. I didn't write them down at the time, so I am not sure what frequency this is. It may be 10 - 25Hz, but could be up to 330Hz. I suspected the frequency would be lower since my torsional pendulum is probably 10X the mass of Woodward's. This is all done with arduino codes available in the example code, so I will need to check the specifications for more details.

 
« Last Edit: 11/16/2017 12:51 PM by Monomorphic »

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Re: Woodward's effect
« Reply #1119 on: 11/16/2017 12:51 PM »
@ Monomorphic

Does the "thrust" signal invert if the direction of the device is reversed, like with Woodward signal?