Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 11  (Read 185568 times)

Offline meberbs

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meberbs,
       you are correct, I do not understand how anyone could think of fields as being anything more than illusions created by a misinterpretation of the nature of electromagnetic interaction. But, being as GR is the zeitgeist and you will defend it with all the zeal of a true believer, all I can do is wish you satisfaction.
       Meantime, the possibility remains that am emdrive or a MET will one day prove itself with undeniable thrust measurements. What I am attempting to do is preempt the necessary considerations which will then follow. How could that be possible, if it proves to be happening. GR, QM and the Standard Model are not going to help you much if that happens.
So you ask a question, don't like the answer, and resort to incorrect ad hominem attacks rather than address what was said.My previous post had nothing to do with GR, and what I was describing about basic facts about how electromagnetism works with reflection is based on well tested experimental regimes. The results of previous experiments won't change if some new physics is discovered. Denying what we already know happens will not help you understand any new physics if it were shown to exist.

Offline Notsosureofit

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FYI:  https://phys.org/news/2018-11-infinite-dimensional-symmetry-possibility-physicsand-particles.html

"The symmetries that govern the world of elementary particles at the most elementary level could be radically different from what has so far been thought. This surprising conclusion emerges from new work published by theoreticians from Warsaw and Potsdam. The scheme they posit unifies all the forces of nature in a way that is consistent with existing observations and anticipates the existence of new particles with unusual properties that may even be present in our close environs.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-11-infinite-dimensional-symmetry-possibility-physicsand-particles.html#jCp"

Offline spupeng7

meberbs,
       you are correct, I do not understand how anyone could think of fields as being anything more than illusions created by a misinterpretation of the nature of electromagnetic interaction. But, being as GR is the zeitgeist and you will defend it with all the zeal of a true believer, all I can do is wish you satisfaction.
       Meantime, the possibility remains that am emdrive or a MET will one day prove itself with undeniable thrust measurements. What I am attempting to do is preempt the necessary considerations which will then follow. How could that be possible, if it proves to be happening. GR, QM and the Standard Model are not going to help you much if that happens.
So you ask a question, don't like the answer, and resort to incorrect ad hominem attacks rather than address what was said.My previous post had nothing to do with GR, and what I was describing about basic facts about how electromagnetism works with reflection is based on well tested experimental regimes. The results of previous experiments won't change if some new physics is discovered. Denying what we already know happens will not help you understand any new physics if it were shown to exist.
meberbs,
       ad hominem attacks!


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meberbs

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« Sent to: spupeng7  on: 11/15/2018 12:09 AM » 

Your most recent post is little more than an insult, so it is against site rules for me to reply to it in the thread.

You can measure the existence of fields. There are experiments that demonstrate all of the properties known in electromagnetism. However, because you find these results unintuitive, you refuse to accept them, and keep making poor attempts to cram those facts into your personal model of the universe, simply refusing to acknowledge the inconsistencies. Your random mention of GR in response to a post that has no relation to GR only serves to demonstrate that you have no interest in understanding.

At this point you appear to have comparable interest in scientific research to a flat-earther. You deny and distort the facts, and when that fails you resort to insults. I find your continued insistence that fields can't be real things with no justification other than you don't understand them nearly incomprehensible. My only explanation is a severe case of Dunning–Kruger, since you seem to think you are the only one on the planet who is right. (The fact that you don't understand fields is not what confuses me, that is obviously because you have made no apparent attempt at understanding.)

meberbs,
       all I said was that I can not understand how anyone could think of fields as being anything more than illusions created by a misinterpretation of the nature of electromagnetic interaction. Oh and wished you satisfaction. This is not a debate closed to alternative viewpoints, so long as they are genuine. Your refusal to accept my opinion is of little consequence unless the science you are defending is at the very least seamless and complete :)
   
Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline meberbs

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       ad hominem attacks!
Yes, that part where you accuse me of religious zealotry about something not even related to my post rather than responding to what I wrote.

meberbs,
       all I said was that I can not understand how anyone could think of fields as being anything more than illusions created by a misinterpretation of the nature of electromagnetic interaction.
That sentence means nothing less than you claiming that every scientist on the planet is an idiot. You are rejecting the results of countless experiments and a consensus of understanding among the entire scientific community for no reason other than that you don't understand it. You are concluding on the basis of nothing other than your own lack of understanding that every scientist on the planet is wrong. This is why I mentioned Dunning–Kruger to you in PM, you are taking evidence of your lack of understanding and using it to conclude that it is countless other people who are wrong.

This is not a debate closed to alternative viewpoints, so long as they are genuine.
Really, then how come every time I explain scientific consensus or basic experimental facts to you, you reject them, usually with no reasoning? I have looked at the theory you have proposed, pointed out specific problems with it, and asked you specific questions you need to answer to have any further productive conversation about it. You have not responded to even some trivial questions I asked. There is one person between the 2 of us that has acted completely closed to alternative viewpoints, and it isn't me.

Your refusal to accept my opinion is of little consequence unless the science you are defending is at the very least seamless and complete :)
Calling every scientist on the planet an idiot is not a valid opinion, it is just a baseless insult.

Your implication that any of the science I explained to you is not seamless and complete is false. (Scientists know where the unknowns in physics are and that isn't it.) This fact has been explained to you repeatedly, and the few times you attempted to point to inconsistencies, I showed that you were either misrepresenting statements out of context, or just completely wrong.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Just because the fields overlap with matter does not transfer the momentum to the matter.

Am I correct in summarizing EM drive in this English sentence?

EM drive is an attempt to convert electrical energy to forward momentum.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline meberbs

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Just because the fields overlap with matter does not transfer the momentum to the matter.

Am I correct in summarizing EM drive in this English sentence?

EM drive is an attempt to convert electrical energy to forward momentum.
I would add slightly more definition to that, at least "at levels greater than a photon rocket." And maybe something constraining the problem to involve microwaves is a resonant cavity roughly shaped like a truncated cone.

The first addition I feel is necessary to separate it from the known way to turn electrical energy into momentum using a photon rocket. The second depends on what purpose you want to use the definition for. You don't need it to state just the purpose of the research, but it is needed to put some constraints on the scope. There is always another variable to change when working with something like this that has no sound theory to support it. At some point you can change so much that there is no actual meaningful relationship to what you started with, and it should have a new name. (Also by that point you need to admit the original device was actually a dead end.)

Offline Notsosureofit

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Well, some sort of resonant cavity anyway....

The"Notsosureofit Hypothesis", I think, at this point has been shown as "False" by orders of magnitude, as are the initial very large claims.

One of the interesting points, to me, is the illustration that the dispersion shown, by this exercise, in the cavity is not a dispersion of the speed of light proper, but just an example of the summation of spherical wavefronts in reflection.

An open question is whether such a proper dispersion mechanism exists, or can exist.

"at levels greater than a photon rocket" implies that an external field or particle (same thing ?) must be available for interaction under some as yet unspecified conditions.

So, rather than a resonant cavity, I would generalize to a bounded space of limited extent.  (Boundary function TBD)

 
« Last Edit: 11/18/2018 11:36 PM by Notsosureofit »

Offline spupeng7

Just because the fields overlap with matter does not transfer the momentum to the matter.

Am I correct in summarizing EM drive in this English sentence?

EM drive is an attempt to convert electrical energy to forward momentum.
John,
       what if the matter is not neutral and is already accelerating?
Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline RotoSequence

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Nature always leaves room for surprises.  :P

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-018-0328-0

Design and characterization of electrons in a fractal geometry

Quote
Abstract

The dimensionality of an electronic quantum system is decisive for its properties. In one dimension, electrons form a Luttinger liquid, and in two dimensions, they exhibit the quantum Hall effect. However, very little is known about the behaviour of electrons in non-integer, or fractional dimensions1. Here, we show how arrays of artificial atoms can be defined by controlled positioning of CO molecules on a Cu (111) surface2,3,4, and how these sites couple to form electronic Sierpiński fractals. We characterize the electron wavefunctions at different energies with scanning tunnelling microscopy and spectroscopy, and show that they inherit the fractional dimension. Wavefunctions delocalized over the Sierpiński structure decompose into self-similar parts at higher energy, and this scale invariance can also be retrieved in reciprocal space. Our results show that electronic quantum fractals can be artificially created by atomic manipulation in a scanning tunnelling microscope. The same methodology will allow future studies to address fundamental questions about the effects of spin–orbit interactions and magnetic fields on electrons in non-integer dimensions. Moreover, the rational concept of artificial atoms can readily be transferred to planar semiconductor electronics, allowing for the exploration of electrons in a well-defined fractal geometry, including interactions and external fields.

Quote from: short summary
Electrons are confined to an artificial Sierpiński triangle. Microscopy measurements show that their wavefunctions become self-similar and their quantum properties inherit a non-integer dimension between 1 and 2.
« Last Edit: 11/19/2018 11:12 PM by RotoSequence »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Just because the fields overlap with matter does not transfer the momentum to the matter.

Am I correct in summarizing EM drive in this English sentence?

EM drive is an attempt to convert electrical energy to forward momentum.
John,
       what if the matter is not neutral and is already accelerating?

Thanks for asking, but I cannot get involved in those kinds of hypothetical questions.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Mulletron

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A nice story from the NY Times which brings EMdrive into light via the video in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/science/space-travel-physics.html
And I can feel the change in the wind right now - Rod Stewart

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