Author Topic: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)  (Read 814496 times)

Offline john smith 19

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #720 on: 07/12/2013 12:32 pm »
The assumption that other countries would not have their own space programs without ITAR is ridiculous.
True. But that's not what he wrote. His actual quote was

" they could not have gotten their space program as far as they have. "

I'll presume it was particularly in the sense of LH2/LO2 upper stage engines. The US refused to sell them RL10s and put pressure on Russia to not supply engines (and I think limit technical information) so India had to engineer a LH2/LO2 engine and stage itself.

Had that not happened India would not have felt impelled to fund that research and the US would have retained more insight into the Indian programmes launch plans.

Likewise across the world various companies have got into the "space rated" parts business because they see their US competitors either driven out of business because it's virtually impossible to sell to non US customers or too demanding in paperwork and lead time that a local product can be very competitive.

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The space industry, just like the defense industry, is of strategic value. Its almost everywhere funded by the government, in the US by NASA and the DoD. Europe, Russia, China, India, Japan all have their own programs because of this, not because of ITAR. It may be a factor too, but certainly not a decisive one.
Decisive no. Significant, yes. SSTL developed a microsat for sat to sat inspection using a piece of Ti aerospace tubing as the tank rather than buy a US tank because they could not afford for it to be stuck in the US awaiting ITAR clearance, or worse yet, sending the sat to the US and awaiting for it to come back.
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The UK may be a special case because its basically perfectly fine with being governed by Washington.
Actually quite a lot of recent UK government payloads have launched as secondaries on Ariane.

You're quite right that the UK was the only G7 nation to acquire orbital launch and abandon it.  :(
« Last Edit: 07/12/2013 12:34 pm by john smith 19 »
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Citizen Wolf

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #721 on: 07/12/2013 05:24 pm »
Not sure if this has been posted before but here's a patent application for "Prevention of icing in the intakes of aerospace propulsors".

http://www.google.com/patents/US5088280?dq=ininventor:%22Alan+Bond%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gIG4UMPsJJT68QTf3YHwAg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAjgK
The only thing I can be sure of is that I can't be sure of anything.

Offline 93143

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #722 on: 07/12/2013 06:30 pm »
I don't think that's been posted here, but it sounds like the RB545's approach to the icing problem as described by Hempsell a while back (inject LOX to prevent the ice from sticking).

Offline john smith 19

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #723 on: 07/12/2013 07:17 pm »
Not sure if this has been posted before but here's a patent application for "Prevention of icing in the intakes of aerospace propulsors".

http://www.google.com/patents/US5088280?dq=ininventor:%22Alan+Bond%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gIG4UMPsJJT68QTf3YHwAg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAjgK

Intriguing. This looks like a version of one of the classified patents that made HOTOL virtually impossible to sell.

I'd always suspected the secret of the process would be found in a psychrometric chart. The implication of the patent is that it grew out of work to prevent fan blade icing on high altitude flights.

It is also a really neat application of flipping a problem over. Don't avoid fan blade icing, force the water to condense (and divert most of it away) and freeze the rest in a controlled safe way.

But setting up the exact cooling profile (just enough but no more) is really tricky.

Note I suspect that a simple implementation of this will have quite high drag and (part) of what REL have come up with is a way to reduce that drag and lower their LH2 use (which they have certainly done).


MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline BobCarver

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #724 on: 07/14/2013 08:51 pm »
It turns out the Australian can't do math correctly. It's £60m which works out to almost exactly $90m.

According to an Australian source, REL has received $100 million in new funding recently. No details due to a paywall.

Actually, there was some info I missed before:

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http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/british-inventor-gets-100m-booster-for-space-plane/story-fnb64oi6-1226679121920

A BRITISH inventor is to be handed $100m by the government to build a 5600km/h aircraft capable of flying people into space or taking Britons to Australia in 4 and a half hours.

Alan Bond, the founder of Reaction Engines, based in Culham, Oxfordshire, has designed a revolutionary jet-rocket hybrid engine that could blast an aircraft out of the atmosphere and into low earth orbit in just 15 minutes.


« Last Edit: 07/14/2013 09:21 pm by BobCarver »

Online aero

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #725 on: 07/14/2013 11:57 pm »
It turns out the Australian can't do math correctly. It's £60m which works out to almost exactly $90m.

According to an Australian source, REL has received $100 million in new funding recently. No details due to a paywall.

Actually, there was some info I missed before:

Quote
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/british-inventor-gets-100m-booster-for-space-plane/story-fnb64oi6-1226679121920

A BRITISH inventor is to be handed $100m by the government to build a 5600km/h aircraft capable of flying people into space or taking Britons to Australia in 4 and a half hours.

Alan Bond, the founder of Reaction Engines, based in Culham, Oxfordshire, has designed a revolutionary jet-rocket hybrid engine that could blast an aircraft out of the atmosphere and into low earth orbit in just 15 minutes.




Its even closer in Au dollars. If fact, the math is quite accurate in $Au.
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline BobCarver

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #726 on: 07/15/2013 01:40 am »
Its even closer in Au dollars. If fact, the math is quite accurate in $Au.

They should have just left in pound sterling to avoid confusion.

Anyway, if anyone with access to the original story, either in the Australian or the Sunday Times, has access to it, I'd be curious to hear what they are going to do with this investment from the British government.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #727 on: 07/15/2013 09:35 am »
Its even closer in Au dollars. If fact, the math is quite accurate in $Au.

They should have just left in pound sterling to avoid confusion.

Anyway, if anyone with access to the original story, either in the Australian or the Sunday Times, has access to it, I'd be curious to hear what they are going to do with this investment from the British government.
Likely announcement this Tuesday, probably reported by this Wednesday.
See up thread for details.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline BobCarver

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Offline Mutley

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #731 on: 07/16/2013 10:58 am »
https://twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/357071808685563904/photo/1
Science minister has confirmed the £60 Million figure for SABRE.

No news yet on any other funding for the rest of phase 3.


Offline flymetothemoon

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #732 on: 07/16/2013 11:02 am »
Skylon is described as a "likely competitor to Virgin Galactics" in several of these links.   Who said that??   I'm not sure that's what the chancellor said, anyway.

It's just classic journalistic nonsense I guess.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #733 on: 07/16/2013 11:38 am »
Skylon is described as a "likely competitor to Virgin Galactics" in several of these links.   Who said that??   I'm not sure that's what the chancellor said, anyway.

It's just classic journalistic nonsense I guess.
Got It. They all seem to be quoting a radio interview (even the Ealing Gazette, not a publication known for its in depth aerospace coverage) done on Radio 5 Live by David Willetts, the relevant minister. I suspect the Virgin thing was thrown in by the interviewer.

IRL VG (and Branson) would be delighted if they could get a full orbital vehicle with enough room for a substantial number of (paying) passengers (which Skylon gives you).
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #734 on: 07/16/2013 12:00 pm »
UK space agency now have a bit more info: http://bis.gov.uk/ukspaceagency/news-and-events/2013/Jul/government-to-invest-60-million-in-worlds-first-air-breathing-rocket-engine

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[...]

The £60 million invested by Government will help to prime the pump for the remainder of the investment capital needed for full engine development. It will be staged over two years, £35m in 2014/2015 and £25m in 2015/2016. The commercial investment will look to capture several times the initial investment as part of a 3 to 5 year programmme.

[...]

Over the next four years, the Government’s money will be spent on four major elements of the SABRE engine development each of which is critical to realising the full production engine design at the end of the project:

 - the heart of the investment will be the SABRE engine technical design work
 - improving the lightweight heat exchanger technology and manufacturing capability
 - wind tunnel and flight testing of SABRE engine components
 - and a significant part of the programme will be a ground demonstration of the engine.

A prototype SABRE is expected by 2017, and flight tests for the engine around 2020.

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #735 on: 07/16/2013 12:21 pm »
Interesting UK gov quote via twitter:

Quote from: @pbdes
UK Science Minister Willetts: We won't let Reaction Engines' scramjet tech 'slip through our fingers' like turbojets did to US in 1940s.

Offline Oli

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #736 on: 07/16/2013 01:00 pm »

A bit underwhelming to be honest. Apparently private investment is not secured yet. Also the timetable could be a bit more ambitious.

Offline IRobot

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #737 on: 07/16/2013 01:00 pm »
Still, they look more interested on the potential of the engine over the potential of the craft. Makes sense, the engine can be made profitable for supersonic aircraft, civilian and military.

That is Skylon's best chance, to make the engine pay for most of the development.

Offline Mutley

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Offline Oli

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon Master Thread (2)
« Reply #739 on: 07/16/2013 02:25 pm »
^

Cool, that already sounds a lot better  ;D

And no offense to REL, but its always good to hear other experts having confidence in the technology:

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The head of Esa's mechanical engineering department, Constantinos Stavrinidis, said the agency took the view that Sabre was a realisable technology, but that it might be some years yet before the engine got into the skies.

"It took a while before steamships took over from clippers; it took a while before jet engines took over from propellers. But I'm convinced this is the last frontier, utilising oxygen from the atmosphere. This technology - the heat exchanger - has demonstrated that it can work," he told BBC News.

Note: The agency took the view, so its a clear endorsement from ESA. I guess I can wait some years ;)
« Last Edit: 07/16/2013 02:29 pm by Oli »

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