Author Topic: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage  (Read 4519 times)

Offline MattJL

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • I pretend to know what I'm doing, and it shows.
  • United States
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« on: 10/21/2012 06:17 PM »
After learning about (and finally managing to understand) propellant crossfeeding, I was struck with an idea:  Would this be applicable to, say, a modified Saturn IB?

For simplicity's sake, the S-IB stage would be modified so that it has the standard monolithic fuel/oxidizer tank but retain the same overall mass, etic, as the un-modified stage.

In a fashion similar to the Falcon 9 Heavy (which I based this idea off of), three of the modified S-IBs would be linked together, and the core stage would have an S-IVB atop it.  I've attached a drawing of this for clarity.

Now, since I'm not a rocket scientist (nor do I play one on TV), I have a few questions about this design:  First, could this be able to send a fully fueled Apollo CSM to the Moon, and second, what's the largest payload (mass-wise) that this could loft?

EDIT:  I seem to have fudged my drawing and added adaptors to the top of the modified S-IB stages on either side of the vehicle.
« Last Edit: 10/21/2012 06:20 PM by MattJL »
Quote
The Administration does not support blowing up planets.

Offline Proponent

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5408
  • Liked: 948
  • Likes Given: 623
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #1 on: 10/21/2012 06:57 PM »
In this post (look near the end), the LEO payload of that beast is estimated as about 45,000 kg (100,000 lb).

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32243
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 10899
  • Likes Given: 325
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #2 on: 10/21/2012 09:15 PM »
Why Saturn IB?

Offline MattJL

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • I pretend to know what I'm doing, and it shows.
  • United States
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #3 on: 10/21/2012 09:28 PM »
Why Saturn IB?
It had a comparative role to the Falcon 9, and I was curious what modifying it into a Falcon 9 heavy type vehicle would offer in terms of payload.

More or less a comparison between two somewhat similar vehicles in respect to their roles.
Quote
The Administration does not support blowing up planets.

Offline MATTBLAK

  • Elite Veteran & 'J.A.F.A'
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4275
  • 'Space Cadets' Let us; UNITE!! (crickets chirping)
  • New Zealand
  • Liked: 1070
  • Likes Given: 2038
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #4 on: 10/21/2012 09:54 PM »
There were several studies done in the 1960s that might have had the 1B augmented with 2 or 4 Titan III-based solid boosters.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/satrnibd.htm

This thread is also somewhat related:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26667.0
« Last Edit: 10/21/2012 10:39 PM by MATTBLAK »
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Offline MattJL

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • I pretend to know what I'm doing, and it shows.
  • United States
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #5 on: 10/21/2012 10:45 PM »
Hmm.  I've given this idea a bit more thought, and I'm curious if adding two more (again, crossfed) S-IB type stages around the core would allow for significant payload gain.

EDIT:  Rough estimate for a Saturn IB with 4 crossfed first stages (5 S-IBs in all) is 60,000 kg.
« Last Edit: 10/22/2012 11:21 AM by MattJL »
Quote
The Administration does not support blowing up planets.

Offline edkyle99

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12677
    • Space Launch Report
  • Liked: 3573
  • Likes Given: 719
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #6 on: 10/22/2012 12:40 AM »
After learning about (and finally managing to understand) propellant crossfeeding, I was struck with an idea:  Would this be applicable to, say, a modified Saturn IB?...

You may have almost reinvented the modular Nova concept studied by NASA during 1961 or thereabouts.  The original idea was to grow NASA's first big rocket, Saturn C-1, by adding a big S-II hydrogen second stage powered by four J-2 engines to create Saturn C-2.  Saturn C-3 would be created next by replacing the Saturn I S-I stage with a bigger one named S-IB powered by two F-1 engines.  Modular Nova would subsequently be created by adding four strap-on S-IB type stages each powered by two F-1 engines.  The result:  145 tonnes to LEO or 45 tonnes to escape.

This comparison shows that in order to get the most performance out of an augmented Saturn IB, a bigger upper stage than S-IVB is needed.

Saturn I(B), by the way, was not a Falcon 9 analog.  Saturn IB in particular was nearly twice as capable in terms of LEO payload (compared to the existing Falcon 9). 

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 10/22/2012 12:41 AM by edkyle99 »

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7437
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 1445
  • Likes Given: 4499
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #7 on: 10/24/2012 02:40 PM »
The Saturn IB had nine tanks (one Jupiter of LOX, four Redstones of LOX and four Redston of RP-1) and eight engines, in what I assume was a very complicated maze of plumbing. I don't thing there would have been a more difficult rocket to cross feed. Please remember that Falcon 9 has the octopus for feeding the engines. Having a single main pipe and a single manifold makes a single point for taping the cross feed simpler. Look at the way Angara does it.
Yet, I suspect that the piping and manifold for Falcon 9 v1.1 will be different. If you look at the new distribution of engines, and the fact that Elon stated that each booster tank will feed the outer engines of the core on its side, I guess they might have gone with a new manifold design. But that's pure speculation.
In any case the Saturn IB seems like the most difficult case to cross feed.

Offline MattJL

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • I pretend to know what I'm doing, and it shows.
  • United States
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #8 on: 10/24/2012 11:48 PM »
The Saturn IB had nine tanks (one Jupiter of LOX, four Redstones of LOX and four Redstones of RP-1) and eight engines, in what I assume was a very complicated maze of plumbing.
I envisioned the creation of a more monolithic and less "Cluster's Last Stand" sort of S-IB with one LOX tank and one RP-1 tank with the same total fuel volumes.

I didn't know about the octopus manifold on Falcon 9.  (I always assumed that the engines were fed directly from the tanks in a manner similar to the F1 engines on the S-IC).  I think that an improved S-IB (S-IBB?) would incorporate that as well.
Quote
The Administration does not support blowing up planets.

Offline Proponent

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5408
  • Liked: 948
  • Likes Given: 623
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #9 on: 10/25/2012 07:57 AM »
The Saturn IB had nine tanks (one Jupiter of LOX, four Redstones of LOX and four Redstones of RP-1) and eight engines, in what I assume was a very complicated maze of plumbing.
I envisioned the creation of a more monolithic and less "Cluster's Last Stand" sort of S-IB with one LOX tank and one RP-1 tank with the same total fuel volumes.

Among us aficionados of this kind of historical trivia, there seems to be a widespread belief that the S-IB's relatively low structural efficiency was a major drag to its performance.  In fact, it wasn't, because weight isn't so crucial in a first stage: see this post.  There were much more cost-effective ways of increasing the Saturn IB's performance, had that been deisrable -- see the two attachments to the post just referenced, especially the first.

Offline MattJL

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • I pretend to know what I'm doing, and it shows.
  • United States
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Saturn IB with cross-fed first stage
« Reply #10 on: 10/25/2012 07:12 PM »
Proponent, I assumed that one would build a monolithic S-IB so as to assist in simplifying propellant crossfeeding - not to improve the performance of the LV.

In fact, when I came up with that 60,000 kg number for a total of 5 crossfed S-IBs (with the "Schillingator," humorously enough), I kept the overall values (dry mass, specific impulse, thrust, fuel mass) the same except scaled for the multiple S-IBs.

I haven't calculated for the removal of the instrumentation unit or the usage of the J-2S, so the 5 core/60 tonne LEO payload Saturn IB is a "worst-case" scenario, if you will.
Quote
The Administration does not support blowing up planets.