Author Topic: Node 4 ideas (Speculation)  (Read 44014 times)

Offline Jim

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #60 on: 08/18/2012 12:34 PM »

No, those are the PMA/NDS, not the berthing ports. If those are the berthing ports, where are the docking ports? There's only 3 available ports on Node 2, not 4. So, Node 2 can accommodate either 2 docking ports plus 1 berthing port, or 1 docking port and 2 berthing ports. The illustrations posted here show two docking ports and 1 port available for berthing.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29693.msg943294#msg943294

Somebody needs to work on reading comprehension and also know who the experts are.

It clearly shows two docking adapters on Node 2 post 2016. So where are the the two berthing ports?

Keep reading.  Know who the posters are and what they bring to the table.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29693.msg943304#msg943304

Offline Jim

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #61 on: 08/18/2012 12:37 PM »

Its not finalized, Jim.

It doesn't really matter.  There are more than open CBM's to support to two PMA's and two berthing ports

Offline PeterAlt

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #62 on: 08/18/2012 12:50 PM »

Its not finalized, Jim.

It doesn't really matter.  There are more than open CBM's to support to two PMA's and two berthing ports

Exactly....
Quote
Quote from: QuantumG on 08/16/2012 07:44 PM
It was my understanding that NASA has cut metal on the NDS (their implementation of the International Docking System Standard) and they're planning to update the two PMA on Node 2 (aka Harmony) for commercial crew vehicles.

Correct, however the two PMAs will be positioned on Node 2 Forward and Node 3 Nadir.

...which leaves just the zenith port for berthing. I ask again, where is the second berthing port going to go? It will have to go on either Node 1 or 3.

Offline Jim

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #63 on: 08/18/2012 12:52 PM »

...which leaves just the zenith port for berthing. I ask again, where is the second berthing port going to go? It will have to go on either Node 1 or 3.

Node 2 nadir.  Anyways, you don't need to worry about it, it will be taken care of by real engineers and Node 4 is not needed.
« Last Edit: 08/18/2012 12:53 PM by Jim »

Offline PeterAlt

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #64 on: 08/18/2012 01:29 PM »

...which leaves just the zenith port for berthing. I ask again, where is the second berthing port going to go? It will have to go on either Node 1 or 3.

Node 2 nadir.  Anyways, you don't need to worry about it, it will be taken care of by real engineers and Node 4 is not needed.

I'm not even talking about Node 4 now because we still have other nodes that could be used. Once the docking adapter-PMA stack is relocated to N2N, there will be just one berthing port on Node 2 (zenith), so one of the empty CBM ports on Node 1 or Node 3 will need to be reserved as the second (I.e. "back-up") port.

Am I missing something?

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #65 on: 08/18/2012 02:41 PM »

...which leaves just the zenith port for berthing. I ask again, where is the second berthing port going to go? It will have to go on either Node 1 or 3.

Node 2 nadir.  Anyways, you don't need to worry about it, it will be taken care of by real engineers and Node 4 is not needed.

Ya know, you could just answer the question....

Will there be two NDS ports and two CBM ports? If so, where will each of them be?

I don't really care, but that's the question that was being asked, and no-one has answered it... It seemed to be an honest question.. Is it too much to just answer a question? Or is "don't you worry your pretty little head about it" all the members of the public should expect?
I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline Jim

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #66 on: 08/18/2012 03:17 PM »

...which leaves just the zenith port for berthing. I ask again, where is the second berthing port going to go? It will have to go on either Node 1 or 3.

Node 2 nadir.  Anyways, you don't need to worry about it, it will be taken care of by real engineers and Node 4 is not needed.

Ya know, you could just answer the question....

Will there be two NDS ports and two CBM ports? If so, where will each of them be?

I don't really care, but that's the question that was being asked, and no-one has answered it... It seemed to be an honest question.. Is it too much to just answer a question? Or is "don't you worry your pretty little head about it" all the members of the public should expect?

It is in flux, that is the issue, so there is no real answer for the final locations, but There will be two docking ports and two berthing ports.
« Last Edit: 08/18/2012 03:18 PM by Jim »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #67 on: 08/18/2012 03:41 PM »
NSF has published an article back in December 2010 about possible solutions to the problem with available docking and berthing ports. . See this link:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2010/12/iss-managers-long-term-configuration-international-space-station/

The situation has changed a little bit since the publication off this article. Nasa has chosen to mount the Common Docking Adapters (CDA) onto the PMA's so they don't occupy available CBMs.
I don't know if Nasa still has the requirement of a backup CBM for Visiting Vehicles.

I couldn't find any released about this subject by NASA, ESA, JAXA, CSA or RosCosMos. Maby L2 has some contains some info, but i've no access to it.

I think some moderation is required here, because there are at least three threads where the available berthing and docking port problem is discussed.
- This topic: Node 4 ideas
- VV at USOS http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28976.135
- ISS Future Configuration http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23841.0 (last post 18 Jan. 2011)
In my opinion The VV or the Future config. thread are more appropriate than this thread.     

I asked SpecePete what his source of information was, because he hasn't stated it. Nether in the ISS Future Configuration thread. And I couldn't find information. Maybe his source can help us all.   
« Last Edit: 08/18/2012 03:42 PM by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline manboy

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #68 on: 08/18/2012 07:40 PM »
There's two competing future configurations:
*PMA-3 will eventually be moved to Node 3 Nadir, which means the Cupola will move to Node 1 Nadir, which means the PMM will move to Node 3 Aft. Node 2 Forward and Nod 3 Nadir will be for docking vehicles. Node 2 Zenith and Node 2 Nadir for berthing vehicles. But as stated previously, Node 2 zenith has a lot of limitations when used for berthing vehicles.


*PMA-3 will eventually be moved to Node 2 Zenith, which means the Cupola will move to Node 1 Nadir, which means the PMM will move to Node 3 Aft. Node 2 Forward and Nod 2 Zenith will be for docking vehicles. Node 2 nadir and Node 3 nadir for berthing vehicles.

« Last Edit: 08/18/2012 07:41 PM by manboy »
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Offline manboy

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #69 on: 08/18/2012 07:43 PM »

...which leaves just the zenith port for berthing. I ask again, where is the second berthing port going to go? It will have to go on either Node 1 or 3.

Node 2 nadir.  Anyways, you don't need to worry about it, it will be taken care of by real engineers and Node 4 is not needed.

Ya know, you could just answer the question....

Will there be two NDS ports and two CBM ports? If so, where will each of them be?

I don't really care, but that's the question that was being asked, and no-one has answered it... It seemed to be an honest question.. Is it too much to just answer a question? Or is "don't you worry your pretty little head about it" all the members of the public should expect?

It is in flux, that is the issue, so there is no real answer for the final locations, but There will be two docking ports and two berthing ports.
Although one configuration has a second berthing port that can't be fully utilized.
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline spectre9

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #70 on: 08/18/2012 10:49 PM »
So what exactly are the berthing requirements?

Canadarm can reach the VV? I thought it could walk off all over the place. Are there places it can't get to?

Offline pathfinder_01

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #71 on: 08/18/2012 10:55 PM »
So what exactly are the berthing requirements?

Canadarm can reach the VV? I thought it could walk off all over the place. Are there places it can't get to?

More clearance between VV and other equipment in certain places.

Offline erioladastra

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #72 on: 08/19/2012 08:28 PM »
So what exactly are the berthing requirements?

Canadarm can reach the VV? I thought it could walk off all over the place. Are there places it can't get to?

As awesome as the arm is there are many places it can't reach, especially when you are talking about manuvering a big vehicle around other structure.  Also power can be a big issue to something like HTV and having to do walkoff ins the middle can be tough and time consuming.  Finally, there are limited cameras and sensors that are needed for capture and release.

Man, a lot to comment on this threa but too much to hit them all.  let me see if I can hit a few key things:

- Nothing has been decided.  MRM for the second docking port with NDS is on the table
- While the ISS can be reconfigured (i.e., move PMA here, PMM there) it is extremely difficult and expensive.  This is not lincoln logs you just snap together a different way. 
- The ISS requires one berthing port and one docking port.  Two is highly preferred, but strictly speaking, not required.
- If you only have one docking port you then have to have indirect handovers.  We have done that in the past on ISS so doable.  The bigger issue is that a NASA astronaut is always required to be on board so you have a tough issue with only one docking port.  If anything is sacrifices I would expect it to be the second berthing port, but I think we will find a solution with 2 of each.
- Node 4 is NOT essential for commercial crew   Of all the options looked at Node 4 is always the most expensive.  Therefore, it will never happen.
- I do not see that we will ever routinely have 8 crew on board.  it could happen but doubt it.
- A commercial crew vehicle coming with 3 or 4 is not way under filled.  The rest will be cargo.  There will not be an ounce/inch to spare.
- Probably in about 6 months this will all be resolvedand finalized.  Stay tuned.

Cheers,

Offline PeterAlt

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #73 on: 08/19/2012 10:57 PM »
So what exactly are the berthing requirements?

Canadarm can reach the VV? I thought it could walk off all over the place. Are there places it can't get to?

As awesome as the arm is there are many places it can't reach, especially when you are talking about manuvering a big vehicle around other structure.  Also power can be a big issue to something like HTV and having to do walkoff ins the middle can be tough and time consuming.  Finally, there are limited cameras and sensors that are needed for capture and release.

Man, a lot to comment on this threa but too much to hit them all.  let me see if I can hit a few key things:

- Nothing has been decided.  MRM for the second docking port with NDS is on the table
- While the ISS can be reconfigured (i.e., move PMA here, PMM there) it is extremely difficult and expensive.  This is not lincoln logs you just snap together a different way. 
- The ISS requires one berthing port and one docking port.  Two is highly preferred, but strictly speaking, not required.
- If you only have one docking port you then have to have indirect handovers.  We have done that in the past on ISS so doable.  The bigger issue is that a NASA astronaut is always required to be on board so you have a tough issue with only one docking port.  If anything is sacrifices I would expect it to be the second berthing port, but I think we will find a solution with 2 of each.
- Node 4 is NOT essential for commercial crew   Of all the options looked at Node 4 is always the most expensive.  Therefore, it will never happen.
- I do not see that we will ever routinely have 8 crew on board.  it could happen but doubt it.
- A commercial crew vehicle coming with 3 or 4 is not way under filled.  The rest will be cargo.  There will not be an ounce/inch to spare.
- Probably in about 6 months this will all be resolvedand finalized.  Stay tuned.

Cheers,

A couple of things...

If MRM is being considered, would it be better (for the longer term), to put an adapter on one of the two ports of the Russian Node Module not currently planned for use (in other words the two ports where the power modules are NOT planned for)?

Second, I like to be the optimist here. Concerning Node 4, I can agree that things look bleak for its future use as a station module, but I would never say never. As you know, things can and often do change (I can name many examples). When they happen, they are never expected , but we are always happy they did. Some future unforeseen need for Node 4, or a sudden increase in NASA's budget would shift the odds from highly unlikely to probable. In today's political environment, I don't expect this; but, politics change every election cycle, so this environment can change too.

Offline manboy

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #74 on: 08/20/2012 02:58 AM »
So what exactly are the berthing requirements?

Canadarm can reach the VV? I thought it could walk off all over the place. Are there places it can't get to?
- Nothing has been decided.  MRM for the second docking port with NDS is on the table
I wonder how the Russians would be compensated for something like that.

A couple of things...

If MRM is being considered, would it be better (for the longer term), to put an adapter on one of the two ports of the Russian Node Module not currently planned for use (in other words the two ports where the power modules are NOT planned for)?

Hmm? The Node module only has three ports. Two for the power modules, one for Soyuz (replacing the one on DC1, then MLM). There are no ports free for NDS.
 
All the info I have on the Russian node module says there’s six ports.
« Last Edit: 08/20/2012 03:13 AM by manboy »
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Offline PeterAlt

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #75 on: 08/20/2012 03:22 AM »
So what exactly are the berthing requirements?

Canadarm can reach the VV? I thought it could walk off all over the place. Are there places it can't get to?

As awesome as the arm is there are many places it can't reach, especially when you are talking about manuvering a big vehicle around other structure.  Also power can be a big issue to something like HTV and having to do walkoff ins the middle can be tough and time consuming.  Finally, there are limited cameras and sensors that are needed for capture and release.

Man, a lot to comment on this threa but too much to hit them all.  let me see if I can hit a few key things:

- Nothing has been decided.  MRM for the second docking port with NDS is on the table
- While the ISS can be reconfigured (i.e., move PMA here, PMM there) it is extremely difficult and expensive.  This is not lincoln logs you just snap together a different way. 
- The ISS requires one berthing port and one docking port.  Two is highly preferred, but strictly speaking, not required.
- If you only have one docking port you then have to have indirect handovers.  We have done that in the past on ISS so doable.  The bigger issue is that a NASA astronaut is always required to be on board so you have a tough issue with only one docking port.  If anything is sacrifices I would expect it to be the second berthing port, but I think we will find a solution with 2 of each.
- Node 4 is NOT essential for commercial crew   Of all the options looked at Node 4 is always the most expensive.  Therefore, it will never happen.
- I do not see that we will ever routinely have 8 crew on board.  it could happen but doubt it.
- A commercial crew vehicle coming with 3 or 4 is not way under filled.  The rest will be cargo.  There will not be an ounce/inch to spare.
- Probably in about 6 months this will all be resolvedand finalized.  Stay tuned.

Cheers,

A couple of things...

If MRM is being considered, would it be better (for the longer term), to put an adapter on one of the two ports of the Russian Node Module not currently planned for use (in other words the two ports where the power modules are NOT planned for)?

Hmm? The Node module only has three ports. Two for the power modules, one for Soyuz (replacing the one on DC1, then MLM). There are no ports free for NDS.

Quote
Second, I like to be the optimist here. Concerning Node 4, I can agree that things look bleak for its future use as a station module, but I would never say never. As you know, things can and often do change (I can name many examples). When they happen, they are never expected , but we are always happy they did. Some future unforeseen need for Node 4, or a sudden increase in NASA's budget would shift the odds from highly unlikely to probable. In today's political environment, I don't expect this; but, politics change every election cycle, so this environment can change too.

NASA policies can (and do) change every election cycle, but there is no reason to believe that a change in political environment would support a sudden increase in NASA's budget. If anything, it is the opposite: all the long-term trends point to increased pressure on domestic discretionary spending due to entitlement growth - which in turn is driven by the aging demographics of the US.

When the avalanche starts, the pebbles no longer get a vote.

There are six ports on the Russian Node:

Z - MLM
N - Soyuz/Progress
P - Power Module
S - Power Module
F - available
A - available

Of the forward and aft ports, only one is usable because of clearance issues (forgot which one).

Even though the Russians have no plans for those ports, I don't know how they would feel about NASA putting a docking adapter there. I'm only mentioning this because it was mentioned that putting a docking adapter on a MRM is on the table. So, if it's on the table, this should be discussed.



Offline arkaska

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #76 on: 08/20/2012 10:26 AM »
Even if an adapter on the Nobe module is possible (which we dont know) I would assume MRM is still preferred because it is close to the USOS while the Node module will be 'far' away.  We also don't even know if the node module will be up there in time.

Offline Riley1066

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #77 on: 08/20/2012 04:23 PM »

- Node 4 is NOT essential for commercial crew   Of all the options looked at Node 4 is always the most expensive.  Therefore, it will never happen.


This thread is "Node 4 Ideas" However.
Go at Throttle Up!

Offline erioladastra

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #78 on: 08/21/2012 01:35 AM »
Even if an adapter on the Nobe module is possible (which we dont know) I would assume MRM is still preferred because it is close to the USOS while the Node module will be 'far' away.  We also don't even know if the node module will be up there in time.

Sorry folks - bad typo, I meant MLM, not MRM.

Offline manboy

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Re: Node 4 ideas
« Reply #79 on: 08/21/2012 02:41 AM »
Even if an adapter on the Nobe module is possible (which we dont know) I would assume MRM is still preferred because it is close to the USOS while the Node module will be 'far' away.  We also don't even know if the node module will be up there in time.

Sorry folks - bad typo, I meant MLM, not MRM.
That's interesting. Is the reason to preserve ports on USOS and kind of coerce Roscosmos to accept the new standard?
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