NASA Selects Launch Services Contract for Jason-3 Mission

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oldAtlas_Eguy
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« Reply #15 on: 08/19/2012 07:55 PM »

It may be that the EELVs effectively become exclusively USAF/NRO vehicles.

That won't happen

+1, and here is some of reasons why.

Although a little off topic below addresses why the Atlas V and F9 have such a cost difference. Plus for a NASA contract the payload integration, paperwork, and generally dealing with NASA costs for SpaceX is shown to be about $30M. ULA’s price for this should be similar although its highly possible SpaceX underbid this effort due to lack of experience doing these tasks. This would make the price for the standard Atlas V <$135M before this extra services cost is added.

There are three items that are an economic thorn in the Atlas V price: vertical vehicle integration vs horizontal vehicle integration, in-house production vs outsourcing, and the costs of the 2nd stage.

First let’s examine the costs of the two first stages. The engines costs of the RD-180 vs 9 M1D’s is nearly the same and the tank production is only slightly more for the Atlas than for the F9 making the cost difference due to the first stage minimal. In fact the Atlas V 1st stage cost could be less than F9’s due to such a cheap RD-180 cost. Here the in-house vs outsource cost difference has some effect and could make the Atlas V 1st stage easily cheaper than the F9 1st stage by bringing some of the more expensive 1st Stage components in-house.

Next let’s examine the 2nd stages costs. The Centaur’s tanks are cheaper to manufacture than F9’s, which is why they are still made the way they are and even future upgrades are still proposed for using stainless steel balloon tank structures. But this makes ground handling of these tanks slightly more difficult and expensive than a rigid tank so it’s mostly a wash when it comes to costs. The avionics suite although very similar has a major difference that affects costs in a large way. The Centaur uses rad hard space qualified components throughout in a redundant system. F9 uses more modern off the shelf commercial components in a redundant system. The reliability difference between the two is not very much but the costs difference is significant. Most of the reliability is gained through the architecture not the reliability of the individual parts. This is true for operations taking place at LEO altitudes but not for GEO altitudes. Centaur unlike the F9 2nd stage actually performs operations/burns at GEO altitudes requiring the more radiation tolerant components. This gives an advantage to Atlas V/ Centaur for use in most BEO and some GEO missions over the F9. But for the rest of the payloads this double or triple the cost of the avionics is not warranted.

Also on the Centaur the extremely high cost of the RL-10 possibly now higher than $40M (in 2010 they were priced at $38M) each vs the MVAC at less than $2M shows up the major cost contributor to the Atlas V. Also the high outsourcing of other Centaur systems and components adds some cost increase over similar systems on the F9 2nd stage such as avionics and RCS. Putting the cost of the Centaur at >$50M each for a single engine Centaur. A DEC would cost >$90M. The cost of the F9 2nd stage is probably <$15M. A $35-75M difference. ULA really needs to replace the RL-10 with a cheaper modern engine with somewhat same form-fit-function but costing <$5M each. One additional item about Centaur and that is there is a structural limit for payload size of about 9,000kg. It would require a thicker stainless steel tank and other structure improvements to compete for the heavy LEO payloads. The DEC would be made for heavier LEO payloads leaving the single engine Centaur for all other payloads below 9,000kg. There are some costs increases associated with this as well as a performance penalty due to increased dry weight, but performance loss for LEO is offset by the increased performance when using 2 engines (less gravity losses).

Last is the vertical vehicle integration vs horizontal vehicle integration. It has been argued back and forth which method is generally better overall and which is generally cheaper overall. If most of your launches are commercial satellites then horizontal will be much cheaper but still not half the cost, somewhere around a 20% cost savings. But if most of your launches are government, horizontal could cost more than vertical due to the payload handling requirements, specialized jigs, etc.

ULA could become very competitive price wise for any government contracts and even commercial if they do a few cost reduction items: replace the RL-10 on the ACES replacing the Centaur (it has cost savings all over the place making its costs about even with that of the F9 2nd stage) and produce parts/components in-house that no longer have qualified sources. Doing this could get the price of an Atlas V down to $80M or $75M making it price competitive with Proton and depending on what the customer wants competitive with F9.

ULA payloads most at risk being lost to SpaceX are LEO payloads, even then SpaceX would probably only pick up about 50% of those in order to maintain space access assurance because most of the LEO launches are out of VAFB whereas the GEO, MEO, and BEO are out of the Cape with only a very few LEO launches.


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« Reply #16 on: 08/19/2012 08:08 PM »

ULA really needs to replace the RL-10 with a cheaper modern engine with somewhat same form-fit-function but costing <$5M each.

I've read that if produced in quantity RL-10 could be "as cheap as a helicopter engine", which would seem to fit your requirement. I wonder if a merger between ULA and the newly combined Rocketdyne / Aerojet could help.
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« Reply #17 on: 08/19/2012 08:12 PM »

ULA really needs to replace the RL-10 with a cheaper modern engine with somewhat same form-fit-function but costing <$5M each.

I've read that if produced in quantity RL-10 could be "as cheap as a helicopter engine", which would seem to fit your requirement. I wonder if a merger between ULA and the newly combined Rocketdyne / Aerojet could help.

To be able to be produced "in quantity" the parts would need to be redesigned so that they could be manufactured on automated systems which would basicly be a new engine anyway.
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« Reply #18 on: 08/19/2012 08:17 PM »

To be able to be produced "in quantity" the parts would need to be redesigned so that they could be manufactured on automated systems which would basicly be a new engine anyway.

I don't recall who said that (Gary Hudson?), but your reply suggests that you disagree with it.
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« Reply #19 on: 08/19/2012 08:35 PM »

To be able to be produced "in quantity" the parts would need to be redesigned so that they could be manufactured on automated systems which would basicly be a new engine anyway.

I don't recall who said that (Gary Hudson?), but your reply suggests that you disagree with it.

From Gen Shelton's testimony before Congress he states the RL-10 manufacturing process is largly a by-hand process using not much better than hand tools. Also the way the parts are designed, using automated manufacturing for these parts would prove to be very difficult. So until the parts are redesigned your stuck with the high costs due to such a high manpower intensive process. Produceing higher quantities this way will not help very much.
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« Reply #20 on: 08/19/2012 09:36 PM »

Trying to get back on topic about Jason-3 and SpaceX, since it has not shown up in the manafest yet there must be still some negotiation/contract finalization going on.
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« Reply #21 on: 08/19/2012 09:44 PM »

You give too much significance to the manifest page on their site, IMHO.
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« Reply #22 on: 08/19/2012 10:15 PM »

some of reasons why

Fantastic post. Thank you!

Quote
Centaur unlike the F9 2nd stage actually performs operations/burns at GEO altitudes requiring the more radiation tolerant components. This gives an advantage to Atlas V/ Centaur for use in most BEO and some GEO missions over the F9.

For GEO missions that makes sense. I don't understand the connection to BEO missions, though. Do those require the upper stage to perform operations above LEO?
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« Reply #23 on: 08/19/2012 10:57 PM »

[From Gen Shelton's testimony before Congress he states the RL-10 manufacturing process is largly a by-hand process using not much better than hand tools.

Gen. Shelton has made similar statements on several occassions; the most specific I've seen was his keynote at the 15th FAA commercial space transportation conference:
Quote from: General William L. Shelton
As an example, each of the Atlas and Delta upper stage engines requires almost 8,000 man-touch-hours--more than goes into putting together a hand-built Lamborghini. During manufacture, workers hand-bend over 350 plumbing tubes for the combustion chamber and nozzle using wooden frames as the guide. Surely there is a better way.
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« Reply #24 on: 08/20/2012 12:00 AM »

To be able to be produced "in quantity" the parts would need to be redesigned so that they could be manufactured on automated systems which would basicly be a new engine anyway.

I don't recall who said that (Gary Hudson?), but your reply suggests that you disagree with it.

From Gen Shelton's testimony before Congress he states the RL-10 manufacturing process is largly a by-hand process using not much better than hand tools. Also the way the parts are designed, using automated manufacturing for these parts would prove to be very difficult. So until the parts are redesigned your stuck with the high costs due to such a high manpower intensive process. Produceing higher quantities this way will not help very much.
Sure a Channel wall type engine could be done as a decent conversion.  The RL-10 "might" just fall into the custom parts definition "finished parts = one".

Another issue I see is that the backlog of orders "value" would be affected.

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« Reply #25 on: 08/20/2012 12:40 AM »


For GEO missions that makes sense. I don't understand the connection to BEO missions, though. Do those require the upper stage to perform operations above LEO?

Where are trans-lunar injections performed?
Is the upper stage involved in high orbit burns for flights to EML-1/2?
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« Reply #26 on: 08/20/2012 02:10 AM »


For GEO missions that makes sense. I don't understand the connection to BEO missions, though. Do those require the upper stage to perform operations above LEO?

Where are trans-lunar injections performed?
Is the upper stage involved in high orbit burns for flights to EML-1/2?

That has nothing to do with this thread. 
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« Reply #27 on: 08/20/2012 04:49 AM »

Before I start, thanks for the excellent info on the RL-10.  It's what basically a 50 year old design.  Time for something new?

OK, back to what I wanted to post about.

Since I've never worked for either operation I can't be sure, but I have a feeling that the management structure is very different between ULS and Spacex.  Numerous Vice Presidents, lots of high level management, and an army of middle management none of who do real work and lots of meetings have very high costs.  I'm thinking that Spacex might well save a few or maybe even more than a few million here alone.

I not sure if this number is correct, but isn't SpaceX charging an extra $30 million or something close to that for NASA launches?  I'm thinking meeting after meeting and ream upon ream of basically useless paper.  Sure there is some extra actual engineering work, but I'd bet it's only a fraction of that $30 million.  Hey when you have a contract and you are getting paid, you do whatever the customer requires.

I say this because I've worked at gigantic top tier military contractors and I've worked for lean startups.
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« Reply #28 on: 08/20/2012 09:36 PM »

I not sure if this number is correct, but isn't SpaceX charging an extra $30 million or something close to that for NASA launches?  I'm thinking meeting after meeting and ream upon ream of basically useless paper.  Sure there is some extra actual engineering work, but I'd bet it's only a fraction of that $30 million.  Hey when you have a contract and you are getting paid, you do whatever the customer requires.

Think of the $20-30M* premium for NASA mission assurance as the government equivalent to commercial paying an underwriter launch insurance premiums.  The costs are not all that different, there's a significant amount of paperwork and time involved, and the "actual engineering" contributed by the process is typically low (or should be).


* Musk once mentioned "about $20M" for NASA mission assurance.
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« Reply #29 on: 08/21/2012 04:21 PM »

Jason-3 is now on the SpaceX manifest.

Last item in 2014 out of VAFB.
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