Author Topic: ISRO Mars Orbiter Mission - Nov 2013 launch to September 2014 arrival - UPDATES  (Read 437162 times)

Offline hop

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Rumour has it that there might be more coming about on atmospheric methane and SAM in the near future.
IIRC, they have a pre-enrichment technique that wasn't used in the primary mission. That should either finally detect some or push the upper limits down to the sub ppb level. Either would be newsworthy. Or maybe it's finally methane season in Gale ;)

Offline ss1_3

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Ready for Jan 2016? ;)

It has been mentioned before that GSLV Mk II won't be able to put the spacecraft on a direct-to-Mars trajectory and slingshot manoeuvres, although less as compared to PSLV, would still be required. The stats that you posted, do they correspond to dry mass or the mass at launch?

Offline vineethgk

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Ready for Jan 2016? ;)

It has been mentioned before that GSLV Mk II won't be able to put the spacecraft on a direct-to-Mars trajectory and slingshot manoeuvres, although less as compared to PSLV, would still be required. The stats that you posted, do they correspond to dry mass or the mass at launch?

I guess it is the mass in the specified Martian orbit. For comparison, MOM should be weighing around 540 kg in Mars orbit now (dry mass + remaining propellant).
« Last Edit: 09/28/2014 09:33 AM by vineethgk »

Offline robertross

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On NPR this morning, they suggested that an Indian engineer makes about $1K per month, compared to the US engineer at $10K per month.  The fact of the matter is that when an Indian engineers sez "F=ma", it has the same value as when an American engineer sez "F=ma".

A few flaws in your responses, but this one stands out the most (even though there are some qualitative reasonings later).

We can all say F=ma, they even teach us the meaning in schools.

It's how one applies it, the experience to work it effectively, cheaply, and safely, and to bring about the desired (or expected) outcome that really matters.

Robert:  India got to Mars, "effectively, cheaply, and safely".  On the first try.  Unqualified praise is due.
100% agree

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The Kinja article is disparaging the "cheaply" part with no cause.  Where is my error?  Their engineers are paid a tenth of what ours are.

I don't believe there are any logical flaws in my responses and I'm aware that I'm not popular amongst our titans of industry.

I am saying that your explanation by using F=ma as an argument is flawed (but not 100% wrong).
But no matter, let's focus on the mission, shall we?  ;)
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The Indians are exactly as human as are Americans.  Their political situation is subject to evolving the same flaws that we have evolved here.  What happens in the future is not subject to speculation.
I agree with all but the last sentence, but that's personal opinion (as is all of our discussion, I suppose).

Keep going India!
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Offline seshagirib

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Now that the probe has made it to mars orbit, What could be the possible future hazards it and the ISRO team may have to face?

 I am thinking:

-Thermal management avoiding a Chandrayaan like scenario, but I suppose Mars orbit thermal environment is much more benign than moon orbit.

-Eclipses and power management.

-Comet: collision with dust particles and instrument contamination.

-Radiation

,,,,, anything else?


edited later:

extended autonomous operation / hibernation during communicaton blackouts,/ whiteouts due to earth - sun -mars geometry.
« Last Edit: 09/28/2014 01:14 PM by seshagirib »

Offline Bob Shaw

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The reaction wheels will fail; the batteries will wear out; the software may be buggy.

It could still last years, though - but I doubt if we'll see the longevity of MGS, Odyssey, or Mars Express. Even if it only survives a few months, the whole effort is a triumph by any standards - roll on the next mission with a *bigger* payload, says I.

Offline AJA

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extended autonomous operation / hibernation during communicaton blackouts,/ whiteouts due to earth - sun -mars geometry.

Why is any of this a hazard to the spacecraft? With that light-time delay, pretty much everything done by the spacecraft is autonomous operation. The rest of the stuff you identified is par for course for any satellite I'd have thought. Cometary dust impacts might hasten the MMOD aging, but Earth satellites too... undergo that.

Spacecraft don't have to obey your prejudiced north-up preconceptions of correct maps!  ;)

Had to mention , and a two :D
« Last Edit: 09/28/2014 06:17 PM by AJA »

Offline hop

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Why is any of this a hazard to the spacecraft? With that light-time delay, pretty much everything done by the spacecraft is autonomous operation.
Several spacecraft have been lost because commanding or programming errors (sometimes combined with other circumstances that would normally be recoverable) made it impossible to communicate with them. This isn't unique to interplanetary missions, but longer communication delays and weaker radio signals increase the risks.

On many spacecraft, just going into safe mode ends up using a lot of propellant, and the longer it takes to recover, the more you use.
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Cometary dust impacts might hasten the MMOD aging, but Earth satellites too... undergo that.
As noted in http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31205.msg1253253#msg1253253 the risk is believed to be pretty minimal.

Aside the stuff mentioned earlier, it seems like propellant and random or aging related component failures should be the limiting factors.

The I-K bus which MOM is (partially?) based on is supposed to have a nominal lifetime of 7-12 years, so it wouldn't be a surprise if the basic spacecraft could last many years. The expected lifetime of individual instruments might be shorter.

They ended up with a pretty good propellant margin, but some comments indicate they might use some of that to adjust the orbit for more interesting science. OTOH, their propellant consumption estimates for normal operations are probably conservative.
« Last Edit: 09/28/2014 07:28 PM by hop »

Offline antriksh

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Ready for Jan 2016? ;)

Thanks antriksh! A couple of questions came to my mind (Maybe it makes more sense to ask this in the separate thread for the follow-on mission, but I'm just posting it below)..

1. I remember reading that one disadvantage of using GSLV-II for a Mars mission was that it cannot make the coasting that PSLV did during MOM launch to adjust its Argument of Perigee (AOP), probably because PSLV has a separate 3rd and 4th stages while GSLV-II has a single non-restartable 3rd stage. I guess the mentioned payload capability take this into account?
(EDIT:  Would bundling an additional hypergolic upper stage with the spacecraft be of some use here, something in the lines of PAM-G? Spacecraft+Upper Stage does the coasting, then US fire multiple times for any necessary orbital adjustments and then do TMI and separate.. Not sure how much of sense it makes considering we are talking of bundling a less efficient hypergol on top of a more efficient cryo, just a thought that came to my mind..)

2. Is the mentioned circular orbit equatorial? For a polar or high inclination orbit like MAVEN, the payload will be lower?

EDIT:  As per news reports, former ISRO chairman U.R.Rao had mentioned recently that ISRO might target the 2018 launch window for the next Mars mission as 2016 is too close to plan a good science oriented mission. So we may have to wait for the 2018 then.

Meanwhile, there are reports that the Chinese might attempt their mission on 2016. As per reports in Xinhua, they want to make it better than MOM as they got left behind this time..  ;)

1. GSLV trajectory will be modified for sure and figure takes that into account. PAM-G can be used based on the trajectory retirements, but its use will reduce payload to mars orbit.

2. The figures I guess are for minimum energy insertion parameters.

I also feel it would be better to target a orbiter+lander mission in 2018. Chandrayaan-2 lander experience + SRE + Manned capsule re entry mission will help SRO to design Mars landing missions. I also wish once MOM mission is complete, ISRO can try a controlled entry into martian atmosphere. The data would be critical for designing Mars entry.   

« Last Edit: 09/29/2014 02:21 AM by antriksh »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline antriksh

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Ready for Jan 2016? ;)

It has been mentioned before that GSLV Mk II won't be able to put the spacecraft on a direct-to-Mars trajectory and slingshot manoeuvres, although less as compared to PSLV, would still be required. The stats that you posted, do they correspond to dry mass or the mass at launch?

dry mass in martian orbit.
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline JohnFornaro

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Robert:  India got to Mars, "effectively, cheaply, and safely".  On the first try.  Unqualified praise is due.

100% agree

Great!

Quote
The Kinja article is disparaging the "cheaply" part with no cause.  Where is my error?...

Quote from: Robert
I am saying that your explanation by using F=ma as an argument is flawed (but not 100% wrong).  But no matter, let's focus on the mission, shall we?

Agree on the focus, but need to elaborate on my metaphorical analogy.  What I'm getting at is that the information content, celestial mechanics in this case, has no relationship whatsoever with salary.

All too often in American politics, the shallow reasoning from our "leaders" for the proles is, "Look at how much money we're spending!  Of course what we're doing is important!"  The Kinja article subtly subtly emphasizes the budgetary "size matters" argument, by disparaging the cost of the Indian mission.  Our titans of the aerospace industry "don't like competition", as they have testified, and they are voicing the common meme touted most loudly by our so called conservatives.

In the larger economic picture, it turns out, not too unexpectedly, that globalization has allowed US companies to outsource their manufacturing to the developing nation, and our manufacturing base has been crushed, along with the very real decline in personal income.

As you know, people are clamoring for a livable minimum wage, but industry insists on making the false argument that this would cut into profit.  For some reason, industry overlooks that a rising tide raises all boats.  A healthy US economy would be very profitable becasue higher wages get funneled back onto the economy, instead of funneled to offshore accounts, where nothing is manufactured.

Our aerospace industry is heavily subsidized; so too, no doubt, is India's.  Clearly, our costs could be better controlled.  Accomplishment in this field is better predicted by knowledge, and not predicted by salary.

Quote from: JF
India's ... political situation is subject to evolving the same flaws that we have evolved here.  What happens in the future is not subject to speculation.

Quote from: Robert
I agree with all but the last sentence, but that's personal opinion (as is all of our discussion, I suppose).

Keep going India!

Thanks too, for the gentlest of grammatical dings.

Of course what happens in the future is subject to speculation.  Even tho that's what I wrote, that's not quite what I meant.

I was responding to your "That's how this 'game' is played" aside.

No doubt that over time, as the standard of living rises in India, so too will salaries.  Which gets back to globalization.  If the world should become more equally salaried, then the world's industries can concentrate of quality manufacturing, instead of the current game of finding the lowest cost "slave" labor.

Speculate away, but it is not a foregone conclusion that India will evolve the same flaws in their democratic government that we have evolved.  Not that you said it was a foregone conclusion, but you know that's what's being thought in many US boardrooms.

Yay India!
« Last Edit: 09/30/2014 05:52 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Quote
Regional dust storm activities over northern hemisphere of Mars - captured by Mars Color Camera on-board ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission.

The image was taken from an altitude of 74500 km from the surface of Mars.


Offline vineethgk

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Regional dust storm activities over northern hemisphere of Mars - captured by Mars Color Camera on-board ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission.

The image was taken from an altitude of 74500 km from the surface of Mars.

There you have Mars in all her glory folks!! This was what I was waiting for all along.. Thank you ISRO!!  8)

(EDIT: And a BIG thanks @sultanofhyd... Cheers..  ;) )
« Last Edit: 09/29/2014 01:16 PM by vineethgk »

Offline antriksh

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Quote
Regional dust storm activities over northern hemisphere of Mars - captured by Mars Color Camera on-board ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission.

The image was taken from an altitude of 74500 km from the surface of Mars.

Coool!!
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline 0orionN

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I see outline of  the 'Indian subcontinent' in the latest pic...

Offline antriksh

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I see outline of  the 'Indian subcontinent' in the latest pic...

True!
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline Ohsin

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Andy Weir would like this view :)
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Hi-res version

Offline hop

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Hi-res version
What a wonderful image!

FWIW, it appears ISRO is posting all the released pics at full res on http://www.isro.gov.in/pslv-c25/Imagegallery/mom-images.aspx#0

I hope they will do regular release rather than just a few "first time" shots... none of the other orbiters really give us this kind of view.
« Last Edit: 09/29/2014 05:04 PM by hop »

Offline ss1_3

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Hi-res version

Breathtaking! Waiting for the Martian moon images now. Any plans to capture those?

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