Author Topic: ISRO Mars Orbiter Mission - Nov 2013 launch to September 2014 arrival - UPDATES  (Read 437605 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

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One more thing to notice is that the Mars images released by ISRO so far are upside-down, any specific reason for that?

Satellite's upside down.   Happens all the time.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline NovaSilisko

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Spacecraft don't have to obey your prejudiced north-up preconceptions of correct maps!  ;)

Offline Blackstar

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http://io9.com/is-the-focus-on-indias-cheap-mission-to-mars-missing-1639082635

"Is The Focus On India's "Cheap" Mission To Mars Missing The Point?"


Offline JohnFornaro

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India rox on this mission.  Deal.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline vineethgk

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Two more instruments to be switched on today

Quote
Spacecraft specialists from the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) are getting ready to uplink the commands and switch on two more scientific payloads on India’s spacecraft to Mars on Saturday, according to V. Kesava Raju, Mission Director, Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM).

Quote
The two scientific instruments that will become operational on Saturday are the Methane Sensor for Mars and the Thermal Infrared Imaging Spectrometer.

Quote
Data would be segregated, processed and disseminated to the scientific community. ISSDC would publish the data on its website

Quote
On Sunday, another instrument, called Lyman Alpha Photometer, aboard the orbiter would be switched on
« Last Edit: 09/27/2014 01:46 AM by vineethgk »

Offline Gaganaut

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Spacecraft don't have to obey your prejudiced north-up preconceptions of correct maps!  ;)

Playing to the galleries, by making comments like these will earn you lot of clap, and pat yourself at your back all by yourself..

Images are downloaded, studied, processed and then if required then only released to the public... nobody questioning anything about satellite and everybody knows these can be up or down or left or right, these images are not directly posted to the web by the Satellites.

It is the image processed and released by we humans that is being questioned here.. if you still want to proceed with my prejudice about satellites.. then carry on I have no further comments to make.
« Last Edit: 09/27/2014 02:17 AM by Gaganaut »

Offline vineethgk

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Hey.. I'm sure NovaSilisko was just joking here, and he probably meant everyone in general. After all, I believe none of us would be comfortable seeing our world map upside down. Its all a matter of perspective which we humans grow up with. :)

Offline NovaSilisko

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Spacecraft don't have to obey your prejudiced north-up preconceptions of correct maps!  ;)

Playing to the galleries, by making comments like these will earn you lot of clap, and pat yourself at your back all by yourself..

Images are downloaded, studied, processed and then if required then only released to the public... nobody questioning anything about satellite and everybody knows these can be up or down or left or right, these images are not directly posted to the web by the Satellites.

It is the image processed and released by we humans that is being questioned here.. if you still want to proceed with my prejudice about satellites.. then carry on I have no further comments to make.

Woah, woah, I was just making a joke. I'm just pointing out how in space there's really no "up" or "down", and that the whole "the images are upside down" thing is really just a result of the common cultural view of north as "up" on maps. I'm not trying to offend   :(
« Last Edit: 09/27/2014 04:06 AM by NovaSilisko »

Offline antriksh

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Prime controller of MOM



« Last Edit: 09/27/2014 09:07 AM by antriksh »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline Dalhousie

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Spacecraft don't have to obey your prejudiced north-up preconceptions of correct maps!  ;)

Playing to the galleries, by making comments like these will earn you lot of clap, and pat yourself at your back all by yourself..

Images are downloaded, studied, processed and then if required then only released to the public... nobody questioning anything about satellite and everybody knows these can be up or down or left or right, these images are not directly posted to the web by the Satellites.

It is the image processed and released by we humans that is being questioned here.. if you still want to proceed with my prejudice about satellites.. then carry on I have no further comments to make.

Woah, woah, I was just making a joke. I'm just pointing out how in space there's really no "up" or "down", and that the whole "the images are upside down" thing is really just a result of the common cultural view of north as "up" on maps. I'm not trying to offend   :(

Not to forget that until comparatively recently most maps of Mars were printed with south at the top.  Some still are.

http://www.britastro.org/mars/maps.htm

http://starryskies.com/The_sky/events/mars/opposition06.html


"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline JohnFornaro

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Spacecraft don't have to obey your prejudiced north-up preconceptions of correct maps!  ;)

Playing to the galleries, by making comments like these will earn you lot of clap, and pat yourself at your back all by yourself. ...

Learn how to laugh yungsta. 

Nova up there was making a funny about my  upside down satellite comment.

He even used one o' them smiley things.  Personally, I've always preferred Bucky Fuller's map of the world.
« Last Edit: 09/27/2014 12:33 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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This article is another example of what I've been calling cognitive infiltration.  Here, the technique employed is known as "damning with faint praise".

http://io9.com/is-the-focus-on-indias-cheap-mission-to-mars-missing-1639082635

Quote from: the Kinja article
1) Okay, we get it — India's Mars Orbiter Mission was spectacularly cheap, costing less than the entire budget of the Hollywood movie Gravity. But is this really what we —and India — should be focusing on?

2) No doubt, this is a stunning achievement for India. ...

3) "Our program stands out as the most cost-effective," noted Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi back in June. "There is this story of our Mars mission costing less than the Hollywood movie Gravity... Our scientists have shown the world a new paradigm of engineering and the power of imagination."

4) Clearly, India is doing something right, and they deserve to be commended...

5) First, accounting standards are not the same across agencies such as ISRO and, say, [just to pick a USG Agency at random] NASA ...

6) The "cheapness" was forced upon ISRO because of earlier failures. ...

This is just the beginning... "That pay-off is long-term, and it cannot be easily quantified. But it is huge."

1) Absolutely, cost is the main thing that should be focused on.  This author has it entirely wrong in this regard.

Elon Musk has suggested a ticket price "to Mars", not to TMI], of $500K.  If there is to be permanent human settlement off planet, then cost is the driver.  Not technology.  Not the number of volunteers. (NSoV) Not country of origin.

2) It is a stunning achievement.  There's no other way to describe it.  It is a textbook example of how applied theory works.  At this time in humanity's directed evolution, aerospace information is cheap.  Use it correctly and appropriately, and you get a successful mission.

Still, past productivity is no indicator of future productivity.  They will have to carefully monitor egos so as to ensure the success of their second mission.

3) The "paradigm of engineering" speaks quietly to my observation of the low cost of information these days.

4) They do indeed, and not faintly, as this author insists in his opening words.

5) This is the worst part of the cognitive infiltration.  There's a lot of discussion here about how the USAF doesn't really know the cost of launching and AtlasV, due to the directed evolution of proprietary cost information.  The truth of the matter is that the simple equation is income minus revenue equals profit.  When income and profit are proprietary, the equation is irreparably broken.

Our tax and accounting system is, for practical purposes, such as colonizing Luna and Mars, an impediment to the accomplishment of those goals.

6) More cognitive infiltration.  There is no "forcing".  The "cheapness" is directly related to salaries.  Period.

As always, when a commentator wants to disparage a program it is called "cheap".  when the intent is to praise a program, it's called "cost effective".

On NPR this morning, they suggested that an Indian engineer makes about $1K per month, compared to the US engineer at $10K per month.  The fact of the matter is that when an Indian engineers sez "F=ma", it has the same value as when an American engineer sez "F=ma".

It is clinically interesting to see how the titans of US industry unanimously call for a virtual elimination of minimum wage here, sending their jobs overseas, yet whine bitterly when the rest of the world outperforms them on cost. 

Our titans pretend not to understand that Mangalyaan cost a tenth of MAVEN, and that salaries probably play the biggest role in that comparison.  Our aerospace titans will also compare MAVEN, built on a half century of experience with Mangalyaan, a first effort, and assert that it is a fair comparison.

Yay India. 

Solo dicendo.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline robertross

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On NPR this morning, they suggested that an Indian engineer makes about $1K per month, compared to the US engineer at $10K per month.  The fact of the matter is that when an Indian engineers sez "F=ma", it has the same value as when an American engineer sez "F=ma".

A few flaws in your responses, but this one stands out the most (even though there are some qualitative reasonings later).

We can all say F=ma, the even teach us the meaning in schools.
It's how one applies it, the experience to work it effectively, chealy, and safely, and to bring about the desired (or expected) outcome that really matters.

India took a big first step along that path (BEO exploration to Mars), but eventually, their workers will demand higher salaries as well (especially since they're performance in this matter has shone through). So in the end, they will likely have a comparable salary base to others in this field (or they will be lost to companies outside of India who see their talent). That's how this 'game' is played. But the value of that employee also helps the rest, because they will likely spend a large portion of it domestically (or have it taken away in the form of taxation), and that empowers a nation a a whole to do better. Then its a question again of HOW those funds are applied: to enrich the education of the NEXT generation to do even better things. That's how the first paragraph comes full circle.
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Offline JohnFornaro

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On NPR this morning, they suggested that an Indian engineer makes about $1K per month, compared to the US engineer at $10K per month.  The fact of the matter is that when an Indian engineers sez "F=ma", it has the same value as when an American engineer sez "F=ma".

A few flaws in your responses, but this one stands out the most (even though there are some qualitative reasonings later).

We can all say F=ma, they even teach us the meaning in schools.

It's how one applies it, the experience to work it effectively, cheaply, and safely, and to bring about the desired (or expected) outcome that really matters.

Robert:  India got to Mars, "effectively, cheaply, and safely".  On the first try.  Unqualified praise is due.

The Kinja article is disparaging the "cheaply" part with no cause.  Where is my error?  Their engineers are paid a tenth of what ours are.

I don't believe there are any logical flaws in my responses and I'm aware that I'm not popular amongst our titans of industry.

The Indians are exactly as human as are Americans.  Their political situation is subject to evolving the same flaws that we have evolved here.  What happens in the future is not subject to speculation.
« Last Edit: 09/27/2014 02:07 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline vineethgk

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Maybe I'm a bit impatient here. ISRO seems to be taking its time in releasing new images. I guess that's because its weekend now and the limited available workforce is busy testing other instruments, and maybe even calibrating the MCC to take better pictures next time.

The child in me isn't satisfied yet..  ;D 

Offline sanman

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It's been mentioned that some previous Mars missions have also used methane sensors - does anyone have any links to sensory-data-based maps generated from them? It would be interesting to be able to compare MOM's methane results with those of previous missions.

Online hop

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It's been mentioned that some previous Mars missions have also used methane sensors - does anyone have any links to sensory-data-based maps generated from them?
No previous orbiter mission had sensors specifically intended to detect methane. The only claimed detection from a spacecraft was ESA's Mars express PFS. See http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032063310002138 (pdf from ESA at ftp://ssols01.esac.esa.int/pub/workshops/09_MEX_VEX_DW_June_2011/PFS/EXTRA_MATERIAL_WORKSHOP/PAPERS_PFS/PAPERS_ON_CH4/Geminale_2011.pdf)

There were also some claimed detections from ground based telescopes, you can find references in that paper.

By far the most sensitive methane detector sent to Mars is Curiosity's SAM. The non-detection by SAM casts significant doubt on the previous detections. While the claim has been made that methane is variable in time and location, the expected lifetime and mixing of methane in Mars atmosphere would make it difficult to reconcile the previous reported levels with the SAM results. Of course, planetary science is pretty good at throwing curve balls...

It's worth noting that MOM's methane sensor was manifested before the SAM results.

Offline Dalhousie

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It's been mentioned that some previous Mars missions have also used methane sensors - does anyone have any links to sensory-data-based maps generated from them?
No previous orbiter mission had sensors specifically intended to detect methane. The only claimed detection from a spacecraft was ESA's Mars express PFS. See http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032063310002138 (pdf from ESA at ftp://ssols01.esac.esa.int/pub/workshops/09_MEX_VEX_DW_June_2011/PFS/EXTRA_MATERIAL_WORKSHOP/PAPERS_PFS/PAPERS_ON_CH4/Geminale_2011.pdf)

There were also some claimed detections from ground based telescopes, you can find references in that paper.

By far the most sensitive methane detector sent to Mars is Curiosity's SAM. The non-detection by SAM casts significant doubt on the previous detections. While the claim has been made that methane is variable in time and location, the expected lifetime and mixing of methane in Mars atmosphere would make it difficult to reconcile the previous reported levels with the SAM results. Of course, planetary science is pretty good at throwing curve balls...

It's worth noting that MOM's methane sensor was manifested before the SAM results.

Rumour has it that there might be more coming about on atmospheric methane and SAM in the near future.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline antriksh

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Ready for Jan 2016? ;)
« Last Edit: 09/28/2014 05:09 AM by antriksh »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline vineethgk

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Ready for Jan 2016? ;)

Thanks antriksh! A couple of questions came to my mind (Maybe it makes more sense to ask this in the separate thread for the follow-on mission, but I'm just posting it below)..

1. I remember reading that one disadvantage of using GSLV-II for a Mars mission was that it cannot make the coasting that PSLV did during MOM launch to adjust its Argument of Perigee (AOP), probably because PSLV has a separate 3rd and 4th stages while GSLV-II has a single non-restartable 3rd stage. I guess the mentioned payload capability take this into account?
(EDIT:  Would bundling an additional hypergolic upper stage with the spacecraft be of some use here, something in the lines of PAM-G? Spacecraft+Upper Stage does the coasting, then US fire multiple times for any necessary orbital adjustments and then do TMI and separate.. Not sure how much of sense it makes considering we are talking of bundling a less efficient hypergol on top of a more efficient cryo, just a thought that came to my mind..)

2. Is the mentioned circular orbit equatorial? For a polar or high inclination orbit like MAVEN, the payload will be lower?

EDIT:  As per news reports, former ISRO chairman U.R.Rao had mentioned recently that ISRO might target the 2018 launch window for the next Mars mission as 2016 is too close to plan a good science oriented mission. So we may have to wait for the 2018 then.

Meanwhile, there are reports that the Chinese might attempt their mission on 2016. As per reports in Xinhua, they want to make it better than MOM as they got left behind this time..  ;)
« Last Edit: 09/28/2014 07:12 AM by vineethgk »

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