Author Topic: ISS crew increase  (Read 12244 times)

Offline bulkmail

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ISS crew increase
« on: 07/05/2012 04:29 PM »
Voices supporting increase of the crew to 7 after CCDev3/4 - http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Astronauts-support-expansion-of-space-station-3674563.php

The initial ISS plan was to have a crew of 7 (3 US, 3 Russia, 1 ESA/JAXA/CSA) going up/down on Shuttle and having a CRV as lifeboat.

Now, without a Shuttle, obviously up/down/lifeboat duties will be combined in the same craft - some CCDev VV.

The options I see are the following:
1. 1 Soyuz (3 Russian crew) + 1 CCDev (4 non-Russian crew and 3 "empty" seats)
2. 1 CCDev (all 7 crew)
3. 1 Soyuz (3 Russian crew) + 1 CCDev (7 additional crew/long duration tourists)

Are there enough suitable docking ports for 2 CCDev VV to be docked simultaneously? (for hand-overs without temporary reducing the crew size)

Are there enough life support/sleeping quarters for short periods of 11 (option1 during max hand-over), 14 (option2 during max hand-over), 17 (option3 during max hand-over) and for long periods of 10 (option3)?

Would Russia accept no more Soyuz flights to ISS (for option2)

Is it possible to somehow utilize the 3 "empty seats" in option1 (for cargo)?

Why isn't the current schedule using 2 Soyuz with hand-over to a 3rd (9 crew for short period of time)? There are 4 Soyuz/Progress docking ports...
« Last Edit: 07/05/2012 04:32 PM by bulkmail »

Offline manboy

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #1 on: 07/05/2012 05:48 PM »
Voices supporting increase of the crew to 7 after CCDev3/4 - http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Astronauts-support-expansion-of-space-station-3674563.php

The initial ISS plan was to have a crew of 7 (3 US, 3 Russia, 1 ESA/JAXA/CSA) going up/down on Shuttle and having a CRV as lifeboat.

Now, without a Shuttle, obviously up/down/lifeboat duties will be combined in the same craft - some CCDev VV.

The options I see are the following:
1. 1 Soyuz (3 Russian crew) + 1 CCDev (4 non-Russian crew and 3 "empty" seats)
2. 1 CCDev (all 7 crew)
3. 1 Soyuz (3 Russian crew) + 1 CCDev (7 additional crew/long duration tourists)

Are there enough suitable docking ports for 2 CCDev VV to be docked simultaneously? (for hand-overs without temporary reducing the crew size)

Are there enough life support/sleeping quarters for short periods of 11 (option1 during max hand-over), 14 (option2 during max hand-over), 17 (option3 during max hand-over) and for long periods of 10 (option3)?

Would Russia accept no more Soyuz flights to ISS (for option2)

Is it possible to somehow utilize the 3 "empty seats" in option1 (for cargo)?

Why isn't the current schedule using 2 Soyuz with hand-over to a 3rd (9 crew for short period of time)? There are 4 Soyuz/Progress docking ports...
This has been talked about before, I believe the consensus was that the Soyuz would carry the three Russian crew members and Commercial Crew would launch with four crew members consisting of three American astronauts and one international (Japanese, Canadian or European). There are planned to be two Commercial Crew docking locations, the primary one will be at Node 2 forward (like with the Space Shuttle) and the second one will either be at Node 2 zenith or Node 3 nadir. The extra seats in the Commercial Crew vehicles would carry either extra cargo or tourists (although NASA hasn't approved of the latter). I can't remember how they plan to do hand overs.

EDIT: Since CCDev requirements only specify the need to transfer four crew members #2 can't be correct.
« Last Edit: 07/07/2012 01:30 AM by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #2 on: 07/05/2012 07:17 PM »
I  think I've read somewhere that they would do direct handovers (with more crew members for the hand over period). I think Nasa is also evaluating the posibility of send up some extra astronauts that would do EVA's and other time consuming work during the handover period, on the three empty seeds on the Comercial crew flights.

After MLM is added there will be 7 crew quarters on board, the other crew members would most likely attach their sleeping bags somewhere onto a rack for the hand over period. I think Node 3 at cupola would be a nice location, besides you have ELM-PS (kibo's storage container), PMM, Columbus, the Airlock  and of course the vehicles themselves (adds up to seven).

For long periods of time the life support systems can support a crew of six or seven, but for short periods (the hand over periods) it can support more.

And I don't think Russia will accept option 2, they will continue launching Soyuz or there new vehicle PPTS.

And to finish up, the Russian segment has four docking ports but two are for crewed vehicles and the other two are for cargo crafts. All progress stay docked for about three months and the ATV stays docked for about six months. The Russians prefer emptying and filling there cargo crafts slowly, so they haven't got to stow the equipment elsewhere inside the station.   

Offline bulkmail

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #3 on: 07/05/2012 07:19 PM »
Since CCDev requirements only specify the need to transfer four crew members #2 can't be correct.

Yes, but some of the CCDev applicants designs actually support more (e.g. SpaceX Dragon).

Offline manboy

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #4 on: 07/05/2012 07:47 PM »
Since CCDev requirements only specify the need to transfer four crew members #2 can't be correct.

Yes, but some of the CCDev applicants designs actually support more (e.g. SpaceX Dragon).
I know but if they had planned to do entire crew transfers on one vehicle then they would have specified seven seats.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2012 07:49 PM by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline arkaska

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #5 on: 07/05/2012 08:29 PM »
ISS life support can't handle more than a crew of 7 and a larger crew, even temporary, would need the use of for example oxygen candles to support the larger crew.

Offline pathfinder_01

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #6 on: 07/06/2012 02:56 AM »
ISS life support can't handle more than a crew of 7 and a larger crew, even temporary, would need the use of for example oxygen candles to support the larger crew.

ISS can support up to 14 in surge mode. However, yes you would be using Oxgen candles. Not an impossiblity but that is just more cargo to ship.

Offline Danderman

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #7 on: 07/06/2012 03:29 AM »
ISS life support can't handle more than a crew of 7 and a larger crew, even temporary, would need the use of for example oxygen candles to support the larger crew.

Would this be the case when the MLM is attached to ISS?

The bigger picture is if the effective of the total system hinges on doing something about ECLSS, then the rational decision would be to do something about the ECLSS.

Offline Ben E

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #8 on: 07/06/2012 06:24 AM »
ISS routinely housed crews of 10-13 for up to two weeks during Shuttle visits and a direct handover was achieved in Oct 2009 (during six-crew operations) when the Williams-Surayev crew arrived and the Padalka-Barratt crew was still in attendance, together with de Winne, Thirsk, Romanenko and Stott.

I'm probably missing something obvious, but I still don't understand why there is so much rhetoric about CCDEV carrying 7 crew members, when it appears that there will never be a need to do so.

Offline arkaska

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #9 on: 07/06/2012 07:14 AM »
During Shuttle ops the shuttle provided life support for the shuttle-crew and for the 9-person handover it required the use if consumables such as oxygen candles. That is the reason for not using direct handovers together with the need to relocate Soyuz during an expedition. 

Offline QuantumG

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #10 on: 07/06/2012 07:44 AM »
Can't they add more life support?

It really does seem like some people are trying to claim that ISS is forever limited to a small crew, with the majority of crew members performing maintenance tasks.
I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #11 on: 07/06/2012 09:45 AM »
Would Russia accept no more Soyuz flights to ISS (for option2)

No. Production of Soyuz spaceships and their associated launchers is ont of the bases of the Russian Space industry.
Nicolas PILLET
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Offline Space Pete

Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #12 on: 07/06/2012 02:14 PM »
Can't they add more life support?

Yes - in 2016 I believe, ESA will add a next-gen Advanced Crew Life Support (ACLS) rack to the Columbus module.
NASASpaceflight ISS Editor

Offline erioladastra

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #13 on: 07/06/2012 02:19 PM »
Since CCDev requirements only specify the need to transfer four crew members #2 can't be correct.

Yes, but some of the CCDev applicants designs actually support more (e.g. SpaceX Dragon).
I know but if they had planned to do entire crew transfers on one vehicle then they would have specified seven seats.

Unless Russia agrees to fly some cosmonauts on the CCDev vehicle (very unlikely) the handovers will always be direct since it is not considered acceptable to ever be without a US crew member.

We never planned to do 7.  The specs request 4.  Any additional would be purchased like tourists.  Therefore it is extremely unlikely we would ever pay extra for people to do an EVA.  The increment crews do just fine for EVAs.  It would have to be some bizzare R&R that the increment crew couldn't do (very unlikely) and that would be known soon enough to modify the flight (not likely).

Even with more life support, power is limited too.  Doesn't help to have 20 people up there and no payloads :)


Offline pathfinder_01

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #14 on: 07/06/2012 03:54 PM »


I'm probably missing something obvious, but I still don't understand why there is so much rhetoric about CCDEV carrying 7 crew members, when it appears that there will never be a need to do so.


It is a useful capability. You could sell the extra seats to a tourist.  It is just that the ISS will not house more than 7 people on a permanent basis.

Offline Go4TLI

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #15 on: 07/06/2012 04:09 PM »
People are confusing two different things. While many of the vehicles are being designed for 7 crew, this is primarily for other business targets.

It has nothing to do with ISS or NASA specifically.  While there could be some cases where a crew member or two is flown for short duration purposes most of the time it is more likely cargo will be flown

Offline Lars_J

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #16 on: 07/06/2012 05:52 PM »
Yes, I would not expect tourist flights to ISS using commercial crew at all. If the extra seats are used, they will be for short flight opportunities for NASA/ESA/JAXA astronauts during handover ops.
« Last Edit: 07/06/2012 05:52 PM by Lars_J »

Offline manboy

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #17 on: 07/06/2012 08:16 PM »
Since CCDev requirements only specify the need to transfer four crew members #2 can't be correct.

Yes, but some of the CCDev applicants designs actually support more (e.g. SpaceX Dragon).
I know but if they had planned to do entire crew transfers on one vehicle then they would have specified seven seats.
Any additional would be purchased like tourists.  Therefore it is extremely unlikely we would ever pay extra for people to do an EVA.  The increment crews do just fine for EVAs.  It would have to be some bizzare R&R that the increment crew couldn't do (very unlikely) and that would be known soon enough to modify the flight (not likely).
So NASA doesn't need the additional downmass CCP could provide?
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Go4TLI

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #18 on: 07/06/2012 08:51 PM »
Downmass is a capability sorely missed

Offline erioladastra

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Re: ISS crew increase
« Reply #19 on: 07/07/2012 12:27 AM »
Since CCDev requirements only specify the need to transfer four crew members #2 can't be correct.

Yes, but some of the CCDev applicants designs actually support more (e.g. SpaceX Dragon).
I know but if they had planned to do entire crew transfers on one vehicle then they would have specified seven seats.
Any additional would be purchased like tourists.  Therefore it is extremely unlikely we would ever pay extra for people to do an EVA.  The increment crews do just fine for EVAs.  It would have to be some bizzare R&R that the increment crew couldn't do (very unlikely) and that would be known soon enough to modify the flight (not likely).
So NASA doesn't need the additional downmass CCP could provide?

Didn't say that.  I think most likely NASA will buy 4 seats and every inch of cargo space available up/down.  However, if NASA doesn't, the CPs could sell the seats to tourists or if they have enough, man a whole flight of tourists to the ISS (consumables etc having to be worked out). 

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