Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 797967 times)

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3040 on: 11/08/2014 09:58 PM »
The vacuum catastrophe has haunted me before and now it is again. Any creative ideas on how quantum and classical can both be right? LOL. Either way, I have a lot to play with 10^14 GeV/m3  OR 10^121 GeV/m3. 107 orders of magnitude difference, means there is a lot to understand still. Which directly effects us, if we want to really understand emdrive. If you're a QV kinda person that is.

What I'm trying to figure out are the properties of not a single virtual electron-positron pair which yoinks in and out of existence with Planck time (or was it near Planck time?), but the properties of the aggregate sea of particle pairs coming in and out of existence, unsynchronized at random. That to me leads to a non zero temperature. Which is why we can never ever reach absolute zero for example. That also leads me to a non zero momentum given that energy is present and electrons have mass. Of course, you don't need mass to have momentum, just energy and motion is enough. The tricky part is the motion. Is the QV inertial? Or is it non inertial? I suspect, but it is only a hunch that it is invariant wrt reference frame. Am I barking up the right tree here with electron-positron pairs? Why not photons? This QV business is strange indeed and it literally keeps me awake at night.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3041 on: 11/08/2014 10:03 PM »
http://ptp.oxfordjournals.org/content/119/3/351.full.pdf+html

Peculiar indeed.
As I have pointed out previously, this requires anisotropy, and the author makes it clear (even in the title).  "Momentum Transfer between Quantum Vacuum and Anisotropic Medium"

The author further points out:

Quote
In most conventional electromagnetic  media, the quantum vacuum inside possesses a universal symmetry and hence has no influence on the motion of the media. However, for a Faraday chiral material,the macroscopically observable mechanical effect, due to the breaking of the universal symmetry of the quantum vacuum may appear

What the author is discussing does not apply to the EM drives researched by NASA Eagleworks because the materials used are isotropic.  (Copper in all cases and in some cases Teflon or Polyethylene dielectrics -injection molded-)

If you looook haaarder, it says anisotropic quantum-vacuum fluctuation field to a Faraday (magnetic) chiral material.

The author is speaking to the anisotropic electromagnetic properties of the material. Not the isotropy of the solidified melt mix. In fact, not linked to here because it is an afterthought, but I've seen references to this kind of effect in disordered materials in the literature.

Exact quote, "Here, we present an effect of the quantum vacuum contribution
to the macroscopic mechanical properties of an anisotropic material (Faraday
chiral material), in which an anisotropic electromagnetic environment could be built
up, and hence the universal symmetry of the quantum vacuum could be broken."

Injection molding does nothing to ensure polymer ordering, aka alignment. An injection molding machine doesn't do any poling.

This paper isn't an exact match to the conditions within emdrive, but demonstrates the diversity of this interaction which is cropping up in other places across the literature.....eg. Robustness.
« Last Edit: 11/08/2014 10:15 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3042 on: 11/08/2014 10:19 PM »
http://ptp.oxfordjournals.org/content/119/3/351.full.pdf+html

Peculiar indeed.
As I have pointed out previously, this requires anisotropy, and the author makes it clear (even in the title).  "Momentum Transfer between Quantum Vacuum and Anisotropic Medium"

The author further points out:

Quote
In most conventional electromagnetic  media, the quantum vacuum inside possesses a universal symmetry and hence has no influence on the motion of the media. However, for a Faraday chiral material,the macroscopically observable mechanical effect, due to the breaking of the universal symmetry of the quantum vacuum may appear

What the author is discussing does not apply to the EM drives researched by NASA Eagleworks because the materials used are isotropic.  (Copper in all cases and in some cases Teflon or Polyethylene dielectrics -injection molded-)

If you looook haaarder, it says anisotropic quantum-vacuum fluctuation field to a Faraday (magnetic) chiral material.

The author is speaking to the anisotropic electromagnetic properties of the material. Not the isotropy of the solidified melt mix. In fact, not linked to here because it is an afterthought, but I've seen references to this kind of effect in disordered materials in the literature.

"Here, we present an effect of the quantum vacuum contribution
to the macroscopic mechanical properties of an anisotropic material (Faraday
chiral material), in which an anisotropic electromagnetic environment could be built
up, and hence the universal symmetry of the quantum vacuum could be broken."

Injection molding does nothing to ensure polymer ordering, aka alignment. An injection molding machine doesn't do any poling.

This paper isn't an exact match to the conditions within emdrive, but demonstrates the diversity of this interaction which is cropping up in other places across the literature.....eg. Robustness.
The EM Drives tested by NASA Eagleworks do not satisfy the anisotropy  (mechanical and electromagnetic) conditions required by the author. What the author discusses is not applicable to explain the measurements at NASA Eagleworks.
« Last Edit: 11/08/2014 10:27 PM by Rodal »

Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3043 on: 11/08/2014 11:29 PM »
Quote
The EM Drives tested by NASA Eagleworks do not satisfy the anisotropy  (mechanical and electromagnetic) conditions required by the author. What the author discusses is not applicable to explain the measurements at NASA Eagleworks.

@Mulletron - That does not mean necessarily that you're on the wrong track, just that our current understanding is not sufficiently complete to attribute the measured force. (I know, that sounds like gobbally-gook)  :)
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline ThinkerX

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3044 on: 11/09/2014 03:17 AM »
Quote
@ThinkerX The energy of light is proportional to the frequency. Higher frequency, higher energy photons. If some of that energy is given up to something else, the frequency is lower.

Aha! So...you'd want to start with the highest frequency laser you could manage...but with increasing bounces resulting in decreasing frequencies/energy, you should still be able to multiply the over all...'thrust?'...a few dozen times?

Did some online checking.  Seems the amplification effect is 3000+ times (experiments by a Doctor Bae from 2007on recycling photons), but they're talking paired spacecraft, not a single vehicle.  As long as the system is not closed, it should work with a single craft...right? 

Thank you!


Quote
All of your lazers and power plants are very massive.  The device will hardly move.  However, place your lazers on a handy airless planet, and aim them at a solar sail, and you can get the thing to move.

A solar sail larger than Texas...which might as well not be there at all once you get out a few thousand au, where the laser energy becomes diffuse.

Barely moving is still moving, more its low cost constant acceleration.  Yes, gotta get the size (mass) of the power plants and lasers scaled down.  Still, done right, should get you to relativistic speeds in a decade or two...might have to break down and run the numbers on that.

Ok, apologies for the thread jack, and thanks to the both of you.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 08:31 AM by ThinkerX »

Offline ThinkerX

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3045 on: 11/09/2014 03:22 AM »
In further apology for my last post, Doctor McCulloch has a new post on his blog

http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.com/

More humorous than informative, but what the heck.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3046 on: 11/09/2014 07:25 AM »
Quote
The EM Drives tested by NASA Eagleworks do not satisfy the anisotropy  (mechanical and electromagnetic) conditions required by the author. What the author discusses is not applicable to explain the measurements at NASA Eagleworks.

@Mulletron - That does not mean necessarily that you're on the wrong track, just that our current understanding is not sufficiently complete to attribute the measured force. (I know, that sounds like gobbally-gook)  :)

Well I accepted the challenge. It took me 30 minutes to find that both extruded PE and PTFE solidify to a semicrystalline structure. Therefore they are anisotropic. If they were amorphous, they'd be isotropic.

So I've established that the materials used in the the Brady et al test campaigns are both chiral polymers and they are both anisotropic due to their semicrystalline structure.

I'll save you the trip to the Oracle this time.
See for yourself. Just google crystallization of polymers.
Also google chiral polymer tacticity.

A neat resource I found:
https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Materials/Structure/anisotropy.htm

Also two exciting words: lamella twisting, here's helical chirality in PE
http://www.esrf.eu/UsersAndScience/Publications/Highlights/2011/scm/scm4

Chirality=proven true
mechanical anisotropy=proven true
electromagnetic or magnetic anisotropy=not proven true, this is where spontaneous pt symmetry breaking comes in. Been working on this one for a while.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 11:06 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3047 on: 11/09/2014 08:52 AM »
Anyone want to take a stab at Zeeman's potential/energy breaking time reversal symmetry?

Is it a hero? Or a zero?

This is all pretty new to me so I thought I'd see if there were any experts out there who know about this stuff. Otherwise I'll have to endure the learning curve to get up to speed.

The Oracle does connect this with spontaneous symmetry breaking, magnetic anisotropy, micromagnetics and bi-isotropic materials.

So I'm seeing a concept forming that I loosely grasp.

Can anyone explain the 3 slides attached, Bill Nye or popular Feynman style?

I just want to add that spontaneously broken time reversal symmetry isn't some whiz bang Star Trek kind of thing. It is manifest in ferromagnetism, which is happening right now on your refrigerator door. I can restore that symmetry simply by heating up the magnet past the Curie point.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 10:37 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3048 on: 11/09/2014 11:50 AM »
Quote
The EM Drives tested by NASA Eagleworks do not satisfy the anisotropy  (mechanical and electromagnetic) conditions required by the author. What the author discusses is not applicable to explain the measurements at NASA Eagleworks.

@Mulletron - That does not mean necessarily that you're on the wrong track, just that our current understanding is not sufficiently complete to attribute the measured force. (I know, that sounds like gobbally-gook)  :)

Well I accepted the challenge. It took me 30 minutes to find that both extruded PE and PTFE solidify to a semicrystalline structure. Therefore they are anisotropic. If they were amorphous, they'd be isotropic.

So I've established that the materials used in the the Brady et al test campaigns are both chiral polymers and they are both anisotropic due to their semicrystalline structure.

I'll save you the trip to the Oracle this time.
See for yourself. Just google crystallization of polymers.
Also google chiral polymer tacticity.

A neat resource I found:
https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Materials/Structure/anisotropy.htm

Also two exciting words: lamella twisting, here's helical chirality in PE
http://www.esrf.eu/UsersAndScience/Publications/Highlights/2011/scm/scm4

Chirality=proven true
mechanical anisotropy=proven true
electromagnetic or magnetic anisotropy=not proven true, this is where spontaneous pt symmetry breaking comes in. Been working on this one for a while.

Neither PTFE (Tefflon) or Polyethylene are mechanically or electromagnetically anisotropic in bulk.  I have measured their directional properties with Dielectrometry, NMR, TMA, DTMA and with MTS.  Semi crystallinity in thermoplastic polymers is not at all like well ordered crystalline metals.  The "crystalline" regions have independent domains oriented randomly throughout the polymer.  Extrusion anisotropy takes place at the exterior surface of the extruded rod in regions of very high shear near the extruder walls.  The interior of the extruded rod is isotropic.   Injection molded PTFE and PE are isotropic due to the random orientation produced during the injection molded process.

There are proprietary manufacturing methods to produce mechanically , electromagnetically and  optically anisotropic polymers, for example when making optically anisotropic polarized lenses.  One would not use extrusion to make such lenses.    It is much easier to attain preferred orientation, overall-anisotropic materials for thin polymer sheets or for very small diameter filaments. 
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 11:56 AM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3049 on: 11/09/2014 12:46 PM »
Quote
Extrusion anisotropy takes place at the exterior surface of the extruded rod in regions of very high shear near the extruder walls.

Good enough for me! I could care less about the interior of the bulk. This supports your previous observations about the limited utility of a monolithic dielectric slug vs rolled thin films.

Thanks for your valuable contribution from your experience. As they say, knowledge is cheap, but experience is priceless.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 12:50 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3050 on: 11/09/2014 01:20 PM »
Quote
Extrusion anisotropy takes place at the exterior surface of the extruded rod in regions of very high shear near the extruder walls.

Good enough for me! I could care less about the interior of the bulk. This supports your previous observations about the limited utility of a monolithic dielectric slug vs rolled thin films.

Thanks for your valuable contribution from your experience. As they say, knowledge is cheap, but experience is priceless.
I recall that other members (not you ? or me) in this forum were of the opinion that the following picture showed that the (pink colored) "dielectric" originally in the NASA Eagleworks truncated cone was a huge injection molded piece.  I was surprised at the time, and I am still surprised that they would use such a huge piece (essentially a significant portion of the cavity would be taken by the dielectric).  Such a huge rod of dielectric would be most likely injection molded rather than extruded. 

Are people still of the opinion that this picture shows the dielectric (in pink)? Is it common to use such a huge volume of dielectric?  What is the reason for such a huge volume of dielectric? 


It is interesting that Eagleworks switched to a much smaller volume of a thinner annular disk dielectric for their "future" testing (they did not say why) as shown at the bottom (yellow and red disk in blue background).  The circular inner hole and the thinner disk appear to be intentional.

Notice that the dielectric is at the small diameter end (both in the old design and in the new design), while the measured displacement is towards the opposite end: the large diameter end.

It think that the measured forces are an experimental artifact due to thermoelasticity, and that the dielectric placement at the small diameter end maximizes this effect, as I will show with results as time permits.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 01:31 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3051 on: 11/09/2014 01:24 PM »
No. The paper says it was 2, 6.25" x 1.06" PE discs. Aero pointed this out I think. That pink area looks to me like a copper cylinder structure to hold those disks in place.


Do you see why my CAD had 6.25" for the minimum diameter possible for the small end now?
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 01:42 PM by Mulletron »
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Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3052 on: 11/09/2014 01:36 PM »
No. The paper says it was 2, 6.25" x 1.06" PE discs. That pink area looks to me like a copper cylinder structure to hold those disks in place.


Do you see why my CAD had 6.25" for the minimum diameter possible for the small end now?

OK, thanks for reminding me.  So is your interpretation that there are two disks 6.25" OD.  Is 1.06" the thickness of the disks? or is it the Inner Diameter of a hole in an annular disk and is the thickness unspecified?  (I would presume the former as it would be unusual not to specify the thickness).

These dimensions make much more sense.

QUESTION: If you were to place a dielectric in the EM Drives for your QV purposes, where would you preferentially place it: at the small diameter or the big diameter end and why?
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 01:36 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3053 on: 11/09/2014 01:53 PM »
No. The paper says it was 2, 6.25" x 1.06" PE discs. Aero pointed this out I think. That pink area looks to me like a copper cylinder structure to hold those disks in place.


Do you see why my CAD had 6.25" for the minimum diameter possible for the small end now?

OK, thanks for reminding me.  So is your interpretation that there are two disks 6.25" OD.  Is 1.06" the thickness of the disks? or is it the Inner Diameter of a hole in an annular disk and is the thickness unspecified?  (I would presume the former as it would be unusual not to specify the thickness).

These dimensions make much more sense.

QUESTION: If you were to place a dielectric in the EM Drives for your QV purposes, where would you preferentially place it: at the small diameter or the big diameter end and why?

I get a 6.25wide x 1.06tall inch cylinder. No hole in it. The next gen thruster seems to have a hole, maybe? That's another story though.

If I were building one, I'd put the dielectric in areas of high magnetic field strength. I drew some pics of this a long time ago and posted them. I don't see a preference for locating the slugs at the big end or small end. Both ends enjoy the same asymmetry. One side is large and the other side is small. No matter if you put the dielectric at one end or the other, they still see the same large end on one side and small end on the other. I criticized the builder for putting the discs only at the small end though. Certain mode shapes won't even touch the dielectric if the discs are only at the small end.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 01:57 PM by Mulletron »
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3054 on: 11/09/2014 01:57 PM »
Reply #3038 on: November 08, 2014, 04:33:35 PM

...oops, I see 93143 answered faster. Glad to hear someone of the million people...

Reply #3013 on: November 07, 2014, 03:40:29 PM

Your pragmatic inertial frame would be the galaxy, wouldn't it?

So what am I, chopped liver?

To elaborate, with words, not math, but hey:

The phrase "sum the instantaneous frames of rest" has the same mathematical meaning as does the phrase "add up kinetic energy in different reference frames".

The Appendix spacecraft is said to go from 0 mph to 1 mph, in its reference frame.  It doesn't go from 671 mph to 672 mph, except as a math exercise of intellectual interest, not as a matter pf pragmatic space travel.   Besides 672 mph is not a relativistic speed, and neither is 672 km/s.

There is not a line of mathematical reasoning which adds up kinetic energy in different, presumably aritrarily preferred, reference frames, and results inexorably in a new type of propulsion.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3055 on: 11/09/2014 02:27 PM »
What the author is discussing does not apply to the EM drives researched by NASA Eagleworks because the materials used are isotropic.  (Copper in all cases and in some cases Teflon or Polyethylene dielectrics -injection molded-)

Hah! 

Primitive man get something without aid of mixologist!

Quote from: Jian Qi Shen's paper
An anisotropic electromagnetic environment that can be created inside a Faraday chiral material may cause breaking of the universal symmetry of vacuum mode structure and hence lead to a nonzero electromagnetic momentum density of the quantum vacuum. A novel quantum vacuum effect (i.e., transfer of linear momentum from an anisotropic quantum-vacuum fluctuation field to a Faraday chiral material) is predicted. This is a macroscopic quantum vacuum mechanical effect that may provide us with new insight into the electromagnetic structures of quantum vacuum fluctuation fields inside anisotropic artificial materials.

Me not sure how Shen can assert that it is a "macroscopic" quantum vacuum mechanical effect, since that, to me, kinda sorta implies that my old eyes could see the effect.  So me not get that. 

Note however his careful wording about how we might gain "new insight" into these anisotropic fields.  The terms "benign", "wormholes, and "Jovian" do not appear in his claims nor conclusion.

He does mention "vacuum-induced Berry’s phases".  I had no idea that Chuck was interested in this subject.

Seriously, the "transfer of linear momentum" is the matter at hand.  It is an issue that EagleWorks is ostensibly interested in, under the moniker "EM Drive".  But forget those makers of chopped liver, whose mothers were probably hamsters.

Perhaps there is another generic term which could be used for a drive of this sort.  If the "anisotropy of the quantum vacuum" does "lead to the transfer of momentum from a quantum vacuum to an anisotropic material", then would it be possible to make your spacecraft propulsion system out of significant quantities of this "anisotropic material", which should be called something.  Perhaps "unobtainium"?

Or am I confusing "electromagnetic momentum inside materials" with the actual pragmatic momentum associated with HSF?

In short, is this a true statement?

Quote from: Shen
As the quantum vacuum in an anisotropic electromagnetic environment has a nonzero momentum, the linear momentum transfer between the quantum vacuum and a gyrotropic chiral material can take place.

And if it is, do these examples have any pertinance to HSF?

Quote from: Shen
this vacuum effect may provide us with new insight into electromagnetic structures of quantum vacuum fluctuation inside artificial anisotropic materials, and we may be able to utilize this mechanical effect to develop sensitive, accurate measurement technologies. In addition, such quantum vacuum effects may lead to new topics regarding fundamental physical problems, such as field quantization, inertia of photon’s spin (in spin-rotation coupling) and some relevant quantum optical effects inside composite materials.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 02:28 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3056 on: 11/09/2014 02:38 PM »
So I've established that the materials used in the the Brady et al test campaigns are both chiral polymers and they are both anisotropic due to their semicrystalline structure.

Woah, there, kemosabe! 

That sounds like an assertion?  Like where, 'zackly does the Brady bunch inform us that they depend on these chiral polymers?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3057 on: 11/09/2014 02:41 PM »
All those papers about transferring linear momentum from the QV to chiral molecules I've been posting since page 126 say that. Rodal posted one from Donaire too.

The Shen paper was an accidental find that I didn't intend to directly tie to emdrive. I was looking for other authors besides Tiggelen, Feigel, and Donaire to see if others were talking about this. By doing this I can shore up the QV approach and show novelty does exist. Or I can put it to bed like MiHsC (IMHO). You know how gaga I used to be about EMdrives using MiHsC. In the end I don't care about the theory, just the truth.

I want some professionally scientific person to read something on this forum that doesn't make them laugh and close their browser window in disgust. Instead I want them to say, "now that's curious!"

I want to stir interest. So this thing gets off the ground.

If the experiments fail to replicate further.....It was still fun. Something was learned by everyone concerned either way.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 02:58 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3058 on: 11/09/2014 02:57 PM »
So I've established that the materials used in the the Brady et al test campaigns are both chiral polymers and they are both anisotropic due to their semicrystalline structure.

Woah, there, kemosabe! 

That sounds like an assertion?  Like where, 'zackly does the Brady bunch inform us that they depend on these chiral polymers?

Now, were one to consider the QV momentum due to chirality proposal, imagine if instead of using PTFE or PE, were one to use true chiral polymers (with chirality in the backbone) using for example phosphane-containing polyisocyanate as a catalyst for the asymmetric hydrogenation of dehydro amino acid N-acetamidocinnamic acid, or as another example the asymmetric polymerization Diels–Alder reaction of asymmetric addition of allylsilane to aldehyde, and utilize an anisotropic manufacturing method to have a homogeneously anisotropic chiral polymer.  Or this polymerization method for acetylene in an asymmetric reaction field using a chiral nematic liquid crystal, which demonstrates the formation of a polyacetylene film comprised of helical chain:



If the present EM Drive tests at NASA Eagleworks would be due to chirality, were one to use a true chiral polymer the momentum would increase by orders of magnitude, hence the numbers used by Dr. White for the fast trip to Enceladus would have been too conservative.  One could use frobnicat's proposal of a generator constructed by EM Drives with chiral polymers powering the EM Drive propulsion. 

No, I don't think that's what happening,  I think that the NASA Eagleworks results are a thermal artifact.  None of the researchers used a true chiral polymer.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 03:10 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #3059 on: 11/09/2014 03:05 PM »
Yeah I'm hearing you on pseudo-chirality. The monomers aren't chiral, but the repeating units are. We're lucky both PE and PTFE feature those Carbon atoms. Else, chirality would most certainly be dead. In the end, they are chiral. I think your ideas above could be ground breaking stuff. If correct. Certainly an improvement.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 03:07 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

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