Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 765856 times)

Offline IslandPlaya

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #80 on: 08/02/2014 12:38 PM »
Fair comment.
I guess we will have to just see what turns up if they continue to refine the experiments.
Maybe a slim chance of a real, usable effect, but the payoff would be so enormous that it must be worth a fair bit of time, money and effort to either put this to bed for good or confirm it to a high degree of confidence.

Offline Silversheep2011

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #81 on: 08/02/2014 01:24 PM »
The Wright brothers,
Were two American brothers, inventors, and aviation pioneers who are credited with inventing and building the world's first successful airplane and making the first controlled, powered and sustained heavier-than-air human flight, on December 17, 1903

Prior to that, Some would say that, "Heaver than air was consider impossible". Now it's  considered  common scientific fact...

I think we often have that same Pre-1903 mindset.
 I debated this last year with a 'Doctor of Engineering' at work.
  We disagree when it comes to innovation.
     He says "Impossible is always impossible'

I say:   
 
  "Possible may lead to Possible"         [ if some design works,-  it might work in another application]
 "Impossible might just be Possible "   [ see video 'Fernman Chaser' below -if this rule is used]
  "Possible becomes Impossible"          [Often when we think -of the work and effort involved- a mindset]

So the more we Test, the more we Validate, then the more the,  'Impossible becomes True.'

My acknowledgement to the Wright brothers...

 
« Last Edit: 08/02/2014 09:06 PM by Silversheep2011 »

Offline RonM

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #82 on: 08/02/2014 02:07 PM »
The first line in the abstract of the technical report is "This paper describes the eight-day August 2013 test campaign designed to investigate and demonstrate viability of using classical magnetoplasmadynamics to obtain a propulsive momentum transfer via the quantum vacuum virtual plasma."

Who knows if this will work, but it is not some magic inertial-less drive that can lead to free energy or perpetual motion. It is an attempt to interact with virtual particles like an electromagnet would interact with an electric field.

Offline GreenShrike

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #83 on: 08/02/2014 02:21 PM »
That said, the paper linked clearly says the device constructed to not get results got results anyway, so QED the resonant cavity theory is falsified by this experiment...

That just means the theory at best requires modification and at worst is a barrel of raw sewage that needs to be dumped and reconsidered entirely.

However, that's how science works -- you experiment to prove or disprove the hypothesis, and when the experiment shows the hypothesis needs to be adjusted, you adjust it and redo the experiment.


So not sure why anyone's excited...

Because anomalous thrust was measured. *Something* caused it. Probably instrument error or an unaccounted for external influence, true, but they still measured it. And until the thrust is explained, there remains the possibility that something unexplained is going on -- and unexplained physics is exciting.

I eagerly await the peer review of the article.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #84 on: 08/02/2014 03:03 PM »
The first line in the abstract of the technical report is "This paper describes the eight-day August 2013 test campaign designed to investigate and demonstrate viability of using classical magnetoplasmadynamics to obtain a propulsive momentum transfer via the quantum vacuum virtual plasma."

Who knows if this will work, but it is not some magic inertial-less drive that can lead to free energy or perpetual motion. It is an attempt to interact with virtual particles like an electromagnet would interact with an electric field.
Thats fine, so long as it is understood that if this experiment behaves the same regardless of inertial frame (usually considered a positive for a theory) then it will provide free energy.

Hey! come to think of it, that air example I made above implies we could also get energy for free from the CMB case. In that case it would merely be the good old energy we used to exploit all the time in sailing ships, where you have water and wind moving with different average velocities. We could exploit the difference between the CMB frame and the interstellar medium (say with a minimagnetosphere) or more immediately we could produce energy from a slight drag on the CMB frame, gradually bringing the speed of the planet (and through the slight force of gravity, our sun) to rest WRT to the CMB. The mass of the sun and 400km/s is a massive store of energy.

Offline Scylla

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #85 on: 08/02/2014 03:19 PM »
Why do I keep seeing reference to "free energy". Am I misunderstanding the meaning of it's use in theses posts?

Even if the device works, you have to introduce energy (microwaves) to make it work.

TANSTAAFL
I reject your reality and substitute my own--Doctor Who

Offline Prober

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #86 on: 08/02/2014 03:55 PM »
Fair comment.
I guess we will have to just see what turns up if they continue to refine the experiments.
Maybe a slim chance of a real, usable effect, but the payoff would be so enormous that it must be worth a fair bit of time, money and effort to either put this to bed for good or confirm it to a high degree of confidence.

agreed, how bout we package up a working unit and move it up to the ISS for a real test.  We don't have time to waste when it comes to using the LEO Space Lab that's available now.
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Offline cuddihy

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #87 on: 08/02/2014 03:56 PM »
What the free energy folks are saying is that if you assume a) that the device provides thrust at a constant or linear rate based on energy input and b) that this assumption holds with no changes at different velocites then c) since kinetetic energy increases at the rate of velocity squared, you are getting an exponential increase in KE for a linear or constant input in Electrical energy. Ie, "free" energy is the delta between KE out and EE in.

What this thesis ignores is that none of these theories extend how their devices would function as velocity increases. Whether they interact with virtual particles or far-off active matter, none of the theories speculate about how "coupling" occurs. So the thesis is pointing out an incongruity in an extension of the theory being tested that goes well beyond what the theory currently proposes...it's a scientific strawman attack.

Offline RonM

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #88 on: 08/02/2014 04:10 PM »
The first line in the abstract of the technical report is "This paper describes the eight-day August 2013 test campaign designed to investigate and demonstrate viability of using classical magnetoplasmadynamics to obtain a propulsive momentum transfer via the quantum vacuum virtual plasma."

Who knows if this will work, but it is not some magic inertial-less drive that can lead to free energy or perpetual motion. It is an attempt to interact with virtual particles like an electromagnet would interact with an electric field.
Thats fine, so long as it is understood that if this experiment behaves the same regardless of inertial frame (usually considered a positive for a theory) then it will provide free energy.

Hey! come to think of it, that air example I made above implies we could also get energy for free from the CMB case. In that case it would merely be the good old energy we used to exploit all the time in sailing ships, where you have water and wind moving with different average velocities. We could exploit the difference between the CMB frame and the interstellar medium (say with a minimagnetosphere) or more immediately we could produce energy from a slight drag on the CMB frame, gradually bringing the speed of the planet (and through the slight force of gravity, our sun) to rest WRT to the CMB. The mass of the sun and 400km/s is a massive store of energy.

What are you talking about? Their concept is a magnetoplasmadynamic thruster that uses virtual particles as the plasma. Okay, that does sounds far fetched, but you can't get free energy from it. While at first glance it seems like a reactionless drive, it is not because the virtual particles are the reaction mass. KE would still increase at the rate of velocity squared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoplasmadynamic_thruster

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #89 on: 08/02/2014 04:17 PM »
It's not a scientific strawman. It's a valid criticism. Propellantless thrust already requires new physics. Also, all of the excitement over applications basically assume that what KelvinZero is saying is true.
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Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #90 on: 08/02/2014 04:26 PM »
You could use this device to harvest energy from the Universe one way or anoter. But anyway, in my opinion it's at least as bad to violate conservation of momentum.

To break conservation of momentum you have to show that the entire planet Earth was not moved in the opposite direction.  If something as simple as walking can move the Earth then very accurate strain gauges would need attaching to the vacuum chamber to check this.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #91 on: 08/02/2014 04:32 PM »
It's not a scientific strawman. It's a valid criticism. Propellantless thrust already requires new physics. Also, all of the excitement over applications basically assume that what KelvinZero is saying is true.

Wouldn't it be cool though.. apart from the possible world ending, Fermi paradox solving bit ;)

Actually Im still trying to get my head around this thing that IslandPlaya brought up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background#CMBR_dipole_anisotropy

That might knock a hole in my favorite FTL paradox also.

Offline cuddihy

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #92 on: 08/02/2014 04:47 PM »
It's not a scientific strawman. It's a valid criticism. Propellantless thrust already requires new physics. Also, all of the excitement over applications basically assume that what KelvinZero is saying is true.

Non sequitur. All physics not previously widely accepted is "new physics."

And it does not follow that because "anomalous thrust produced", or even "can change an object's momentum without expelling mass" that therefore "must require linear input of energy for linear increase in velocity".
« Last Edit: 08/02/2014 04:48 PM by cuddihy »

Offline Prober

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #93 on: 08/02/2014 05:25 PM »
Looks like the media has picked up on it.

NASA confirms ‘impossible’ thruster actually works, could revolutionize space travel

Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/nasa-confirms-impossible-space-drive-actually-works-revolutionize-space-travel/#ixzz39FyGJbBH
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #94 on: 08/02/2014 05:53 PM »
...powered by wishful thinking.
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Online Stormbringer

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #95 on: 08/02/2014 06:04 PM »

em-drives, ion engines, VASIMIR, Alcubrier... seem's we have a bazillion ways to go fast on very little fuel once we are up there...  But we still have to deal with the rocket equation to get there in the first place.  I'm waiting to see a /real/ game-changer come along... a provable means of getting out of the gravity well that beats rockets.

Sadly, we are rather lacking in acceptable options there still.

I think even if the EM thruster actually worked as advertised that it's my understanding you would still need a jet engine for an aircraft or rocket for a spacecraft to get off the ground in the first place.

sure we are dealing with micro newtons now... but Dr White's 2013 symposium talk extrapolated to extraordinary levels thrust for trips to Jupiter and points beyond ...all the way to the tau point if i recall correctly. his device is a different make and model but the QVPT does the same sort of thing as this generally using the same mechanism of operation in broad terms.

talk is here. the first portion of the talk is on QVPT and he hits all around but not in his classified results too.

EDIT: looks like i have the wrong vid. this is mostly about his warp drive. i will make a separate post when i find the proper video. Sorry, guys.


« Last Edit: 08/02/2014 06:11 PM by Stormbringer »
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Offline Danderman

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #96 on: 08/02/2014 06:41 PM »
I would lay my money on instrument error. 

I would also lay money on nothing substantive coming out of this, much like cold fusion, where adherents claiming that progress is being made secretly, but no real world applications after 25 years.


Offline SteveKelsey

Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #97 on: 08/02/2014 06:46 PM »
I step into this debate with trepidation. My perspective is that neither proponent has developed a successful characterisation of any effect, hence the confusion over the test article modified to not perform, and the confusion over Shawyer's description leading to his theory gaining little traction. However- having exercised my doubts, and well aware of the problems inherent in using an analogy, one presents itself to me in this case. A rocket motor utilises the shape of the nozzle to convert chemical energy to a directed force, which we call thrust. Is it possible that all that happening here is microwave energy is converted to thrust by the shape of the chamber?
It's a horribly inefficient conversion that may be due to the net sum of all the forces applied of the chamber. It is most likely more complex and as I am not clear on Shawyer's use of relativity as part of his description of the system I am ignoring that, but from what I have read I am in good company. Just an idle thought on a rainy saturday evening in Cumbria so if you think it doesn't hold water let it pass         : )
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Offline SteveKelsey

Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #98 on: 08/02/2014 06:49 PM »
Unfortunately there are no real world applications for any fusion system to date.
2001 is running a little late, but we are getting there.

Offline CW

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #99 on: 08/02/2014 07:39 PM »
Hello all,

I think there is one elephant in the room that nobody seems to notice. If the drive is supposed to gain impulse by interaction with virtual particles of the quantum vacuum, then these particles obviously have to be accelerated in the opposed direction in which the drive is accelerated.

Here comes now the elephant: When those accelerated virtual particles (which pop in an out of existence spontaneously) disappear again to who-knows-where, what happens to the impulse that these particles previously gained.. is it gone? I can hardly imagine that this should be the case. So.. where would the imparted impulse on the virtual particles go? Ideas? On the other hand.. please correct me if I'm wrong.. I seem to remember some knowledge that virtual particles were not subject to impulse conservation?

Regards
Reality is weirder than fiction

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