Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 765553 times)

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #660 on: 09/16/2014 03:49 PM »
...

The point about the Cannae drive is not how much thrust it produced in the NASA test compared to other designs, but whether their 3 micronewton design is plausible. Because if they have backing, it will be built and  launched.

..

@Wembley

I still don't understand why would somebody want to put in orbit the "Cannae drive [with] their 3 micronewton design "  as you suggest, when Paul March's Woodward-Effect device has been repeatedly tested by him, and reported by NASA's Dr. White (slide 40 of previously linked reference) as having measured 1000 (one thousand) times greater thrust. 

That argument is the equivalent of saying "I don't see why you'd want to spend money on spaceflight when there are so many starving people in the world."

Everyone has their own priorities - and that's a good thing, as it means many different things get tried (and done.)   What others choose to do (or not do) are a distraction to the case you want to make.

It was not an argument, it was a question:

What is the advantage of the Cannae device compared to Paul March's? Do you have information that its minute measured thrust is more trustworthy or better in some sense?

Apparently you posted 2 seconds after I was done editing my post, to include the question  :), so you didn't have time to see my question
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 03:51 PM by Rodal »

Online Stormbringer

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #661 on: 09/16/2014 04:09 PM »
@aceshigh

Quote from: Paul March
Dr. Woodward maintains that the M-E's mass fluctuations occur in the "squishy" intermolecular chemical bonds of the dielectric and not in the rest mass of the ions in question. Next question is what are these squishy intermolecular chemical bonds made of? They are typically called covalent sharing of molecular electrons and/or an imbalance of ionic electric charges between the charged ions. Ok then what is in between the electrons and ions in these dielectric molecules that is affected by the M-E equation's transient gravity waves, or in other words what do the M-E's pressure transients in the cosmological gravitational field affect in between the molecules that for all practical purposes is a pure vacuum state. A vacuum state filled only with virtual photons of the electric fields and perhaps the virtual e/p pairs of the quantum vacuum. That is why I continue to say that Dr. White in only trying to answer what Woodward's M-E "gravity" pressure waves are effecting at the molecular and subatomic scales. A place that Dr. Woodward refuses to go to this date except perhaps in his musings on the ADM electron structure where the gravitational field is used to counter balance the electrostatic field forces, but once again ignoring the basic question of what either of these fields are composed of. That is supposed to be the realm of quantum gravity, but since no one has come up with an accepted answer for same, Dr. White is free to suggest his own.


This part fired up my random silly question generator.  Has anyone every did one of these devices with bismuth as an intrinsic part of the device? This summary of Woodward's description as squishy intra-molecular bond stuff reminds me of (mostly) fringe claims about the unusual nucleonic shell shape and electronic configuration of Bismuth.

as an aside to this aside... the spell checker for this website sure could use some tuning up. molecular is spelled molecular, nucleonic really is a word; etc.
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 04:18 PM by Stormbringer »
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Offline aceshigh

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #662 on: 09/16/2014 04:14 PM »
@Stormbringer, please correct your last post because you added your text inside my quote.

Offline wembley

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #663 on: 09/16/2014 04:16 PM »
...

The point about the Cannae drive is not how much thrust it produced in the NASA test compared to other designs, but whether their 3 micronewton design is plausible. Because if they have backing, it will be built and  launched.

..

@Wembley

I still don't understand why would somebody want to put in orbit the "Cannae drive [with] their 3 micronewton design "  as you suggest, when Paul March's Woodward-Effect device has been repeatedly tested by him, and reported by NASA's Dr. White (slide 40 of previously linked reference) as having measured 1000 (one thousand) times greater thrust.    What is the advantage of the Cannae device compared to Paul March's? Do you have information that its minute measured thrust is more trustworthy or better in some sense?

__

PS: the actual reported measured thrust by NASA for the Cannae device was 40 microNewtons (not 3 microNewtons)


Cannae own the rights to their drive, not Woodward's. That's why they go with theirs.
The page on their website describing the cubesat describes at producing an adequate 3 micronewtons.

The appear to have backing, the other drive doesn't. Therefore, whatever the technical merits, they win.

Offline wembley

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #664 on: 09/16/2014 04:18 PM »


shows that Shawyer/SPR Ltd.'s EM drive is claimed (with "measurements" performed elsewhere -not at NASA-)  to have a thrust force 2000 to 4000 times higher than the drives recently tested at NASA.

What information does WiredUK have in this regard?
Is Shawyer/SPR Ltd.'s EM drive going to go into orbit soon - at a cost less than $100k-?


I'm a freelance, but Wired UK have been about the only people who will accept articles on this for the last few years.

Unfortunately, Roger Shawyer seems to have been left on the sidelines on this one and SPR are not in a position to launch. I'm currently trying to find out what happened to the UK evaluation of his technology in 2009, but that seems to have been lost. He looks like being a pioneer whose work was taken up by others.

Cannae are certainly continuing their work and have previously discussed a Cubesat mission with a thruster producing 3 micronewtons -- note their website is back up again now in slightly altered form --
http://cannae.com//2-uncategorised/48-cubesat
There is no indication who they are partnering with, but we they have talked to various aerospace players previously.

Yang Juan's work is also progressing largely undercover, but does appear to be progressing. I wrote a piece about this for Aviation Week which should appear shortly. My guess would be they will be the first to launch, unless NASA decide to sieze the initiative. However, the lack of comments from NASA suggests that the agency do not have any great appetitie for it, but I would be interested to hear otherwise. The lack of public statements for a new development doesn't seem normal to me, but others may know better?

Isn't the reason we haven't heard much from NASA because from what's been said a lot of the people involved in this work have NDAs in place concerning what they can & cannot talk about it?
No, it's not that. NASA won't discuss the tests, the Q-Thruster program, the recent paper, or anything related to it, AT ALL, nor make any public statement that they might have an interesting new technology.
 I suspect that's unusual.

Online Stormbringer

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #665 on: 09/16/2014 04:22 PM »
@Stormbringer, please correct your last post because you added your text inside my quote.

Done.

The weird thing is in the editor i do not see a nested quote. i see only a quote at the beginning and ending of the bit about Dr Woodward's thoughts. this has happened to me before when i pared down a massively nested multi-quote post. the coding for a global quote was invisible to me and i had no idea how to fix it.
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #666 on: 09/16/2014 04:27 PM »
@Stormbringer, please correct your last post because you added your text inside my quote.

Done.

The weird thing is in the editor i do not see a nested quote. i see only a quote at the beginning and ending of the bit about Dr Woodward's thoughts. this has happened to me before when i pared down a massively nested multi-quote post. the coding for a global quote was invisible to me and i had no idea how to fix it.

Do your editing in 'Notepad' outside of the forum' inadequate editing window.  The simple html codes will be visible there.  Still, multiple nestings get corny when you lose track of them.  I've had to re-edit countless times immediately after posting in order to get the quotes right.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #667 on: 09/16/2014 04:34 PM »
....

We already have a device which converts electricity to rotational motion, known as the electric motor.  It depends upon  the wheel, in order to instantaneously press, in a frictional fashion, against a local gravitational mass to convert the rotational force into forward motion.

....

Feynman has a trick question in his classic book "Lectures on Physics" (I think volume II) on another electromagnetic effect that can produce rotary motion (but not translational linear motion by itself).   

The interesting thing about Paul March's 2004 and 2005 experiments and some of Prof. Woodward's experiments is that they were conducted with load cells, with the device experiencing vertical acceleration (not rotational motion).
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 04:55 PM by Rodal »

Offline frobnicat

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #668 on: 09/16/2014 04:55 PM »
@GoatGuy, please don't overemphasize our mathematical prowess too much, as our derivations are at a modest undergrad level (at most) and if a real mathematician were to come along and expected to talk with us of the monstrous moonshine as a likely connexion between AdS/CFT correspondence and the EMdrive effect, on equal footing, well this could be embarrassing.
That said, I'm glad our (yes) hard-earned maths/physics skills could be put to good use in those little pedagogical and hopefully conclusive arguments and are online for the posterity. The only reason not many professional scientists didn't even bother to comment on that case probably because of the instant trivial obviousness of this line of reasoning and conclusion, unlimited energy from an engine running at the bottom of the well : why it's all the more strange that it's not more loudly shouted by proponents of the effect being real (only some "well maybe yes, also it's more complicated than you think, let us show how it all depends on the cosmic horizon...")

Dr Rodal: your efforts at clarifying the experimental situation for various setup are greatly appreciated. Could you add to your list the thrust/power figure for the only both theoretically sound and experimentally proven "thrust from power" that is photon rocket  1/c  ?
Not as a provocation, just as a reminder to put things into perspective.

Now for the provocation : my doctor prescribed me a diet of at most a post a day on NSF, and recommended to diversify my readings, EMDrive thread develops too much cholesterol. Good cholesterol but still cholesterol.

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #669 on: 09/16/2014 04:59 PM »
,,,,

Dr Rodal: your efforts at clarifying the experimental situation for various setup are greatly appreciated. Could you add to your list the thrust/power figure for the only both theoretically sound and experimentally proven "thrust from power" that is photon rocket  1/c  ? ...

<< a large military searchlight is a photon rocket in a sense, but yields less than one ten-thousandth of a pound of thrust for a power consumption of 100 kilowatts.>> see:  http://history.nasa.gov/conghand/propulsn.htm

so, that is a

SPECIFIC FORCE = 4.45 *10^(-6) N/kW

(This is 33% higher than the theoretical thrust per input-power-required for a perfectly collimated output beam, but let's take this higher number, from this NASA source, as an upper bound (a bound impossible to approach for a photonic rocket) .  The 33% difference is insignificant compared to the numbers below )
« Last Edit: 09/17/2014 12:27 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #670 on: 09/16/2014 05:03 PM »
The NASA-tested (in a vacuum) Boeing/DARPA device, NASA-reported specific force is up to 4.5 million times larger than the one of a "Large military searchlight as a photon rocket"


The NASA-tested (not in a vacuum) Cannae microwave device,  NASA-reported specific force is 300 times larger than the one of a "Large military searchlight as a photon rocket"

_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________


Large military searchlight as a photon rocket:

SPECIFIC FORCE = 4.45 *10^(-6) N/kW

(This specific thrust, from http://history.nasa.gov/conghand/propulsn.htm,  is 33% higher than the theoretical thrust per input-power-required for a perfectly collimated output beam, but let's take this higher number, from this NASA source, as an upper bound.  The 33% difference is insignificant compared to the numbers below )

Experimental data not obtained using Dr. White's NASA inverted torsion pendulum

______________________________

Shawyer/SPR Ltd.'s microwave device:


SPECIFIC FORCE = 0.02 to 0.4 N/kW  (4500 to 90 000 times larger than the photon rocket)

______________________________

Paul March Woodward-Effect device tested with a load-cell-in-vertical-motion in 2004:   


SPECIFIC FORCE=  0.4 N/kW   (up to 90 000 times larger than the photon rocket)

______________________________

Paul March Woodward-Effect device tested with a load-cell-in-vertical-motion in 2005: 


SPECIFIC FORCE=  0.3 N/kW  (up to 67 000 times larger than the photon rocket) 


______________________________
******************************
Experimental data obtained using Dr. White's NASA inverted torsion pendulum

(tested in a vacuum)

Boeing/DARPA device:


SPECIFIC FORCE = 1 to 20 N/kW (225 000 to 4.5 million times larger than the photon rocket)

______________________________

Cannae Testing:

(not tested in a vacuum by NASA)

SPECIFIC FORCE:  0.0014 N/kW  (up to 300 times larger than the photon rocket)
______________________________

Tapered (Frustum) Cavity Testing: 

(not tested in a vacuum by NASA)

SPECIFIC FORCE=  0.003 N/kW to 0.0054 N/kW  (700 to 1200 times larger than the photon rocket)

______________________________
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 10:34 PM by Rodal »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #671 on: 09/16/2014 06:51 PM »
@Fornaro, chi va piano, va sano e va lontano.

Rodal:

Grazie per i consigli. Il mio problema è leggermente diverso:

Il male dell'agnello, cresce la pancia e cala l'uccello.

Solo dicendo.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #672 on: 09/16/2014 07:10 PM »
@Fornaro, chi va piano, va sano e va lontano.

Rodal:

Grazie per i consigli. Il mio problema è leggermente diverso:

Il male dell'agnello, cresce la pancia e cala l'uccello.

Solo dicendo.

I frutti proibiti sono i più dolci.


Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #673 on: 09/16/2014 07:47 PM »
...The only reason not many professional scientists didn't even bother to comment on that case probably because of the instant trivial obviousness of this line of reasoning and conclusion, unlimited energy from an engine running at the bottom of the well : why it's all the more strange that it's not more loudly shouted by proponents of the effect being real....

Well, Drafta's  "Proposal for experimental verifying of Machian transient mass fluctuations"(http://arxiv.org/ftp/gr-qc/papers/0102/0102002.pdf) , using Woodward's <<Mach's principle who assert that inertia of the bodies is caused by interaction between bodies and the distant matter from Universe.>> did state
<<If experiment will succeed, this opens the possibility to realize new kind of devices for energy production>>.

Also, concerning using the zero-point quantum vacuum there are several patents where the authors attempt to extract energy from the zero-point quantum vacuum  :).  One extreme position is to take the naive Quantum Mechanics viewpoint that the quantum vacuum energy is infinite, by including energy of waves with arbitrarily short wavelengths   :).

<< Current claims to zero-point-energy-based power generation systems are considered pseudoscience by the scientific community at large [12][13] and skeptics usually dismiss efforts to harness zero-point energy by default.

....

According to a NASA contractor report, "the concept of accessing a significant amount of useful energy from the ZPE gained much credibility when a major article on this topic was published in Aviation Week & Space Technology (March 1st, 2004), a leading aerospace industry magazine".

For a destruction of several claims to tap energy from the zero-point quantum-vacuum see pages 65 to 80 of http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050170447.pdf]>>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 07:57 PM by Rodal »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #674 on: 09/16/2014 07:51 PM »
@Fornaro, chi va piano, va sano e va lontano.

Rodal:

Grazie per i consigli. Il mio problema è leggermente diverso:

Il male dell'agnello, cresce la pancia e cala l'uccello.

Solo dicendo.

I frutti proibiti sono i più dolci.

Ai chihuahua, so to speak...
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #675 on: 09/16/2014 08:02 PM »
Also see p. 84 of this NASA report  http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050170447.pdf

<<5.2.7 Overview of Patented Reactionless Propulsion Devices>>
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 08:41 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #676 on: 09/16/2014 08:05 PM »
@Fornaro, chi va piano, va sano e va lontano.

Rodal:

Grazie per i consigli. Il mio problema è leggermente diverso:

Il male dell'agnello, cresce la pancia e cala l'uccello.

Solo dicendo.

I frutti proibiti sono i più dolci.

Ai chihuahua, so to speak...

¡Ay, caramba!

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #677 on: 09/16/2014 08:13 PM »
T. Valone (who is referred above in p. 84 of NASA report  http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050170447.pdf) has this paper in 2012  "Electrokinetics as a Propellantless Propulsion Source" :)
http://ac.els-cdn.com/S1875389212025023/1-s2.0-S1875389212025023-main.pdf?_tid=24883a44-3dde-11e4-882b-00000aab0f01&acdnat=1410898683_c2f29cf1462ae114ed1ccc8f6d085c22

<<Electrokinetics, which often involves a capacitor and dielectric, has virtually no relationship
that can be connected with mass or gravity. The Army Research Lab has recently issued a report on
electrokinetics, analyzing the force on an asymmetric capacitor, while NASA has received three patents
on the same design topic. ... This paper also reviews the published electrokinetic experiments by the Army
Research Lab by Bahder and Fazi, California State University at Fullerton work by Woodward and
Mahood, Erwin Saxl, and others.>>

Valone also discusses the Feynman disc "paradox".  This "paradox" is in his Lectures on Physics book (http://www.amazon.com/Feynman-Lectures-Physics-Commemorative-Issue/dp/0201500647/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1410899309&sr=8-3&keywords=feynman+lecture+on+physics).  Reach for your bookcase, the one with the sizable mass effect, for Volume 2, article 17-5 on pages 17-5 and 17-6 and look at Fig. 17-5.

______________

What do I think?  I think that people interested in these effects should take a look at the Abraham-Minkowski controversy, which can always be resolved with the concept of "hidden momentum" as done by the inventor of the transistor,  W Shockley http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC225123/pdf/pnas00121-0067.pdf

Constitutive laws governing material behavior cannot be addressed just from general principles as attempted by Minkowski, one must resort to experiments or to physical modeling as done by Shockley.  Or, as done by Abraham, one must enforce symmetry in the stress tensor (otherwise if one insists in using Minkowski's unsymmetric formulation one must include extra terms and/or integrate over a larger volume to represent reality).  Otherwise one ends up with some unphysical concepts  :)
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 09:40 PM by Rodal »

Offline RanulfC

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #678 on: 09/16/2014 09:54 PM »
@Fornaro, chi va piano, va sano e va lontano.

Rodal:

Grazie per i consigli. Il mio problema è leggermente diverso:

Il male dell'agnello, cresce la pancia e cala l'uccello.

Solo dicendo.

I frutti proibiti sono i più dolci.

Ai chihuahua, so to speak...

¡Ay, caramba!

Thanks for reminding me I needed to update my profile with some latin :)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline aceshigh

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #679 on: 09/16/2014 10:23 PM »
Por que latim, se estavam falando em italiano e depois em espanhol com termos típicos mexicanos? Línguas românticas, isso sim.

anyway, the german cousin of my wife visited us a couple of years ago. Since she is studying latin in Germany (she wants to be a translator and also teacher, and there is work according to her, because Germany uses roman law code and lawyers there need to learn a good deal of latin), and she was able to, just through etimology connecting either directly to latin or to french, read 95% of an entire article in a magazine at our home without ever learning the language itself (brazilian portuguese)


in other news, GoatGuy is proclaiming victory, at the NextBigFuture comments section, because nobody countered his mathematics here.  ::)
« Last Edit: 09/16/2014 10:56 PM by aceshigh »

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