Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 796247 times)

Offline IslandPlaya

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 582
  • Outer Hebrides
  • Liked: 163
  • Likes Given: 166
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1980 on: 10/11/2014 08:09 PM »
What would be the complications on conducting experiments in my garage?
I would need a copper frustum and optimised dielectric designed by you guys.
RF power source.
Suspend the whole thing from a wire and see if it moves.
Am I missing anything?

Actually, I don't think you're missing anything, if your setup could be optimized to demonstrate well above the noicse floor of the current setup.  If you're putting a couple hundred watts into it, and it moves like a rubber band airplane, then I'd say congratulations, you are success.
Now all I need is a garage to get started!

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9163
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 611
  • Likes Given: 316
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1981 on: 10/11/2014 08:15 PM »
So let me get this straight...[collect copper underpants...

The big question mark is whether the microwave (~2GHz) EmDrive [copper ????] flat walls can make a horizon.

...

Four questions really:

1) Is the NASA Eagleworks truncated cone a complete, closed, Faraday cage, including both flat end surfaces? (are the end surfaces also made of copper?)

2) Is it correct to assume that the light/electrons in the EmDrive experience the huge accelerations required for Unruh radiation ?

3) Is it correct to assume that the Unruh wave patterns close at the [copper ????] flat walls just as at the Hubble horizon ?

4) Is McCulloch's MiHsC theory correct that inertial mass is caused by Unruh radiation, and so it is affected by the Hubble horizon since Unruh waves must fit exactly within this horizon?.

1) we have no idea what's inside the copper frustratum. Who is to say that PCB board is the only thing on the ends, even if one of you guys recognizes the PCB amterial?

2) No.  Not enough energy is going into the mechanism to accelerate all that much all that fast.

3) ?

4) ?

Copper underpants.  The new tin foil hat.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1982 on: 10/11/2014 08:16 PM »
http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0612599v1.pdf  <<For an object with high acceleration the temperature of the Unruh radiation is high, the Unruh wavelengths seen are short and the Unruh energy spectrum looks like the curve on the left. In the schematic this spectrum is sampled by five or six of the allowed wavelengths so much of the energy in the Unruh spectrum remains. However, if the acceleration is reduced, then the object sees the spectrum on the right. In this case, only one of the wavelengths is allowed because the others do not fit within  and so the spectrum is more sparsely sampled, and the energy of the Unruh radiation is much lower than expected. In this new scheme, some spectral energy is lost at wavelengths shorter than , and this allows the prediction of the Pioneer anomaly,>>

http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html  <<for normal accelerations a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, but for huge accelerations (as [McCulloch] assume(s) for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall because they are partly em waves>>

Short wavelength --> high Unruh radiation

The wavelength of Unruh radiation need to be short enough (less than ~  9 inches) to fit in the flat end surfaces of the truncated cone, for the simplified formula of McCulloch to hold.

This means that there must be an acceleration large enough so that the Unruh radiation wavelengths are short enough to fit in the flat surfaces of the truncated cone.  The center of mass of the truncated cone does not have such an acceleration, no way.  Only the light/electrons can have such an acceleration.  Without Unruh radiation there is no McCulloch correction to the inertial mass, see:  http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0612599v1.pdf   

I find this statement by McCulloch very clear:

<<(1) Inertia is a reaction to Unruh radiation and (2) this reaction is weaker for low accelerations because some wavelengths in the Unruh spectrum do not fit within a limiting scale >>
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 08:31 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Liked: 779
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1983 on: 10/11/2014 08:39 PM »
To be clear, unruh waves are synonymous with saying all possible radiation because the unruh waves and unruh radiation is tied to the vacuum which is stochastic.

9 inches is 1315.78 mhz.

I maintain that inertial mass is the result of all interaction.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 08:45 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1984 on: 10/11/2014 08:43 PM »
To be clear, unruh waves are synonymous with saying all possible radiation because the unruh waves and unruh radiation is tied to the vacuum which is stochastic.

9 inches is 1315.78 mhz.

We disagree, on this treatment too. What matters mostly is the wavelength corresponding to the  peak of the energy curve.  That's why Prof.McCulloch is referring to the acceleration of light/electrons.

Otherwise, one could say that any accelerating body has Unruh radiation to some degree, and a distribution of wavelengths as well and you could say these wavelengths or those wavelengths.

If one doesn't consider the energy curve, it becomes gob·ble·dy·gook :)

One must consider the energy vs wavelength curve, as done by Prof McCulloch
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 08:50 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1985 on: 10/11/2014 08:45 PM »
To be clear, unruh waves are synonymous with saying all possible radiation because the unruh waves and unruh radiation is tied to the vacuum which is stochastic.

9 inches is 1315.78 mhz.
and 6 inches for the other end is what frequency ?

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Liked: 779
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1986 on: 10/11/2014 08:51 PM »
6 inches is 1969mhz
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 08:53 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1987 on: 10/11/2014 08:53 PM »

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Liked: 779
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1988 on: 10/11/2014 08:55 PM »
Rounded vs not rounded

How many times have I said that energy is constrained over time now? Jeez...
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 08:57 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1989 on: 10/11/2014 09:02 PM »
OK, we got an answer:

Dr. Rodal:  <<Prof. McCulloch, do I understand correctly the statement "a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall" to mean that for your above simplified formula to be based on MiHsC, the accelerations of the electrons need to be large enough so that Unruh radiation can significantly affect the inertial mass such that milliNewton forces can be experienced?>>


Prof. McCulloch:  <<Yes: the accelerating objects inside the shell/cavity must accelerate (a) fast enough that the Unruh waves they see become short enough to be damped by the shell. The formula is: wavelength~8c^2/a so, for example, to get Unruh waves 1 metre long you need a=7.2*10^17 m/s^2.>>
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 09:05 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Liked: 779
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1990 on: 10/11/2014 09:25 PM »
OK, we got an answer:

Dr. Rodal:  <<Prof. McCulloch, do I understand correctly the statement "a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall" to mean that for your above simplified formula to be based on MiHsC, the accelerations of the electrons need to be large enough so that Unruh radiation can significantly affect the inertial mass such that milliNewton forces can be experienced?>>


Prof. McCulloch:  <<Yes: the accelerating objects inside the shell/cavity must accelerate (a) fast enough that the Unruh waves they see become short enough to be damped by the shell. The formula is: wavelength~8c^2/a so, for example, to get Unruh waves 1 metre long you need a=7.2*10^17 m/s^2.>>

Ok I get it. You're trying to calculate the acceleration of particles to fit within the band gap of what the walls are excluding. Don't forget the plasma frequency of the material too.

Well those are pretty daunting, never mind. You done good.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 09:33 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1991 on: 10/11/2014 09:32 PM »
OK, we got an answer:

Dr. Rodal:  <<Prof. McCulloch, do I understand correctly the statement "a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall" to mean that for your above simplified formula to be based on MiHsC, the accelerations of the electrons need to be large enough so that Unruh radiation can significantly affect the inertial mass such that milliNewton forces can be experienced?>>


Prof. McCulloch:  <<Yes: the accelerating objects inside the shell/cavity must accelerate (a) fast enough that the Unruh waves they see become short enough to be damped by the shell. The formula is: wavelength~8c^2/a so, for example, to get Unruh waves 1 metre long you need a=7.2*10^17 m/s^2.>>

Ok I get it. You're trying to calculate the acceleration of particles to fit within the band gap of what the walls are excluding. Don't forget the plasma frequency of the material too.

I don't understand "the plasma frequency of the material " in this case (EM Drive).

Non si capisce pił niente
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 12:31 AM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Liked: 779
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1992 on: 10/11/2014 09:39 PM »
OK, we got an answer:

Dr. Rodal:  <<Prof. McCulloch, do I understand correctly the statement "a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall" to mean that for your above simplified formula to be based on MiHsC, the accelerations of the electrons need to be large enough so that Unruh radiation can significantly affect the inertial mass such that milliNewton forces can be experienced?>>


Prof. McCulloch:  <<Yes: the accelerating objects inside the shell/cavity must accelerate (a) fast enough that the Unruh waves they see become short enough to be damped by the shell. The formula is: wavelength~8c^2/a so, for example, to get Unruh waves 1 metre long you need a=7.2*10^17 m/s^2.>>

Ok I get it. You're trying to calculate the acceleration of particles to fit within the band gap of what the walls are excluding. Don't forget the plasma frequency of the material too.

I didn't know there was any plasma frequency to consider.   What is "plasma frequency"?

Non si capisce pił niente

Wish I hadn't gone there. It is the upper frequency limit of a material.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1993 on: 10/11/2014 09:49 PM »
OK, we got an answer:

Dr. Rodal:  <<Prof. McCulloch, do I understand correctly the statement "a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall" to mean that for your above simplified formula to be based on MiHsC, the accelerations of the electrons need to be large enough so that Unruh radiation can significantly affect the inertial mass such that milliNewton forces can be experienced?>>


Prof. McCulloch:  <<Yes: the accelerating objects inside the shell/cavity must accelerate (a) fast enough that the Unruh waves they see become short enough to be damped by the shell. The formula is: wavelength~8c^2/a so, for example, to get Unruh waves 1 metre long you need a=7.2*10^17 m/s^2.>>

Ok I get it. You're trying to calculate the acceleration of particles to fit within the band gap of what the walls are excluding. Don't forget the plasma frequency of the material too.

I didn't know there was any plasma frequency to consider.   What is "plasma frequency"?


Wish I hadn't gone there. It is the upper frequency limit of a material.

I apologize for my bad italian. I meant to write <<no capisce>> that I didn't understand

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Liked: 779
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1994 on: 10/11/2014 09:53 PM »
OK, we got an answer:

Dr. Rodal:  <<Prof. McCulloch, do I understand correctly the statement "a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall" to mean that for your above simplified formula to be based on MiHsC, the accelerations of the electrons need to be large enough so that Unruh radiation can significantly affect the inertial mass such that milliNewton forces can be experienced?>>


Prof. McCulloch:  <<Yes: the accelerating objects inside the shell/cavity must accelerate (a) fast enough that the Unruh waves they see become short enough to be damped by the shell. The formula is: wavelength~8c^2/a so, for example, to get Unruh waves 1 metre long you need a=7.2*10^17 m/s^2.>>

Ok I get it. You're trying to calculate the acceleration of particles to fit within the band gap of what the walls are excluding. Don't forget the plasma frequency of the material too.

I didn't know there was any plasma frequency to consider.   What is "plasma frequency"?


Wish I hadn't gone there. It is the upper frequency limit of a material.

I apologize for my bad italian. I meant to write <<no capisce>> that I didn't understand

I know what it is but I'm shaky on how to calculate it. Don't make me do math! That's your job.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1995 on: 10/11/2014 09:55 PM »
To recapitulate:

 <<Yes: the accelerating objects inside the shell/cavity must accelerate (a) fast enough that the Unruh waves they see become short enough to be damped by the shell. The formula is: wavelength~8c^2/a so, for example, to get Unruh waves 1 metre long you need a=7.2*10^17 m/s^2.>>

We need to show that photons and/or electrons are accelerating to an acceleration exceeding a=7.2*10^17 m/s^2 in order to justify the McCulloch inertial mass change in this case.

What is accelerating? (electrons or photons or both?)
Where is the acceleration taking place?  (I propose: at the surface boundaries, that is at the inner copper surfaces and at the dielectric outer surfaces)
Why is the acceleration taking place? (we have to show that this is due to the microwave frequency for example)
When is the acceleration taking place?  (we need to show that this is happening during the 30 to 45 sec thrust pulses)
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 09:59 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Liked: 779
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1996 on: 10/11/2014 10:02 PM »
You're losing me. Where did you find your nuke hat? The thing has a quiet zone inside. Because it is a copper can. Just measure it with a probe and a spec anny.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1997 on: 10/11/2014 10:31 PM »
You're losing me. Where did you find your nuke hat? The thing has a quiet zone inside. Because it is a copper can. Just measure it with a probe and a spec anny.
OK, step by step then. Chi va piano va sano e va lontano

1) REQUIREMENT that must be satisfied for McCulloch's formula <<the accelerating objects inside the shell/cavity must accelerate (a) fast enough that the Unruh waves they see become short enough to be damped by the shell. The formula is: wavelength~8c^2/a so, for example, to get Unruh waves 1 metre long you need a=7.2*10^17 m/s^2.>> (Reference: http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html)

2) What objects inside the cavity are accelerating to 7.2*10^17 m/s^2 ?

that is an acceleration of

730,000,000,000,000,000

times larger than 1 g.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 10:36 PM by Rodal »

Offline aero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2785
  • 92129
  • Liked: 724
  • Likes Given: 249
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1998 on: 10/11/2014 10:46 PM »
Well, for what its worth I calculate the skin depth for copper at 1900 MHz is about 1.5 microns.

The electron acceleration I get is about 7.7 g's. Not near high enough.

And note, to be precise, the cavity dimensions are about 0.25146 m major dia., 0.16764 m minor dia. 0.2286 m height. (Picked off the screen picture with a ruler scaling to the 1.5 inch cross section of the support arm.)

« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 11:22 PM by aero »
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9163
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 611
  • Likes Given: 316
Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1999 on: 10/11/2014 11:24 PM »
Non si capisce pił niente ...

U talkin' to me?  Oh wait...

Non capisco.   Pourriez-vous ralentir, pardenaire?

Y'all still don't really know what's inside the dern thing, do ya?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Tags: