Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 795353 times)

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1960 on: 10/11/2014 04:29 PM »
...

Hawking radiation is not just where particle pairs are pulled apart. It is also the mechanism for which information is conserved. It isn't a cause of information problems. A black hole slowly evaporates and returns that information back to the universe.
...

Rather than arguing about what Hawking radiation encompasses, and whether there is a Hawking radiation paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox  (certainly there is no consensus) and such esoteric topics, why don't we concentrate on the EM drive?

I propose we should strive to answer the questions I posed, starting by the first simple question: is the NASA Eagleworks drive a closed Faraday cage?  are the flat ends indeed made out of copper?

By every method I use, it appears to be copper all around. Shawyer's design is copper. Nasa tested Shawyer's design.

Information entropy and casual horizons do apply to emdrive. Since the Casimir effect is confirmed. I don't tend to question Unruh waves. Since an object approaching C gets baked by radiation, I don't tend to question Unruh Radiation.

That gray stuff over the large end cap is a cover used for something. I don't know what for.

At emdrive.com, Shawyer says it is an enclosed cavity. The nature of it being an enclosed cavity is why it is controversial. So I say we can keep operating as if it is enclosed.
Thank you.  That's progress.
Now to the 2nd question:

2) Is it correct to assume that the light/electrons in the EmDrive experience the huge accelerations required for Unruh radiation ?

Can we at least  "back of the envelope" calculate what are the accelerations involved ?  (never mind whether they are large enough)

What is accelerating? Why is it accelerating? When is it accelerating? What is the acceleration?


No this doesn't apply to electromagnetic radiation itself. It is already going the speed of light.

No, you just confused the heck out of me. Radiation doesn't experience Unruh radiation. It is radiation.

Quoting Prof. McCulloc:  << but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall because they are partly em waves and the electrons in the copper move to cancel the field,>>

The acceleration is the "a" in the formula you (at least momentarily) posted.

Again I ask you:

What is accelerating?   <<huge accelerations (as Prof. McCulloc assumes for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) >> [http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html  ]
Where is it accelerating?
Why is it accelerating?
When is it accelerating?
What is the acceleration?

The emdrive itself accelerating with respect to the universe or any observer.

Inside, the photons with respect to their emitter and the cavity walls.

A photon has no mass first, just momentum; secondly, it is already going C. There is no more to accelerate. It doesn't experience Unruh Radiation. It is radiation.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 04:33 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1961 on: 10/11/2014 04:36 PM »
The thing that is accelerating is the electric skin current, the electrons in the walls.

I don't have a clue about how far they move per cycle. Probably an AC current with some amplitude.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 04:38 PM by aero »
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Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1962 on: 10/11/2014 04:39 PM »
...

Hawking radiation is not just where particle pairs are pulled apart. It is also the mechanism for which information is conserved. It isn't a cause of information problems. A black hole slowly evaporates and returns that information back to the universe.
...

Rather than arguing about what Hawking radiation encompasses, and whether there is a Hawking radiation paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox  (certainly there is no consensus) and such esoteric topics, why don't we concentrate on the EM drive?

I propose we should strive to answer the questions I posed, starting by the first simple question: is the NASA Eagleworks drive a closed Faraday cage?  are the flat ends indeed made out of copper?

By every method I use, it appears to be copper all around. Shawyer's design is copper. Nasa tested Shawyer's design.

Information entropy and casual horizons do apply to emdrive. Since the Casimir effect is confirmed. I don't tend to question Unruh waves. Since an object approaching C gets baked by radiation, I don't tend to question Unruh Radiation.

That gray stuff over the large end cap is a cover used for something. I don't know what for.

At emdrive.com, Shawyer says it is an enclosed cavity. The nature of it being an enclosed cavity is why it is controversial. So I say we can keep operating as if it is enclosed.
Thank you.  That's progress.
Now to the 2nd question:

2) Is it correct to assume that the light/electrons in the EmDrive experience the huge accelerations required for Unruh radiation ?

Can we at least  "back of the envelope" calculate what are the accelerations involved ?  (never mind whether they are large enough)

What is accelerating? Why is it accelerating? When is it accelerating? What is the acceleration?


No this doesn't apply to electromagnetic radiation itself. It is already going the speed of light.

No, you just confused the heck out of me. Radiation doesn't experience Unruh radiation. It is radiation.

Quoting Prof. McCulloc:  << but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall because they are partly em waves and the electrons in the copper move to cancel the field,>>

The acceleration is the "a" in the formula you (at least momentarily) posted.

Again I ask you:

What is accelerating?   <<huge accelerations (as Prof. McCulloc assumes for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) >> [http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html  ]
Where is it accelerating?
Why is it accelerating?
When is it accelerating?
What is the acceleration?

The emdrive itself accelerating with respect to the universe or any observer.

Inside, the photons with respect to their emitter and the cavity walls.

A photon has no mass first, just momentum; secondly, it is already going C. There is no more to accelerate. It doesn't experience Unruh Radiation. It is radiation.

Please read what Prof. McCulloc wrote in his blog, including <<a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, >>

The acceleration of the EM drive center of mass is completely and utterly insignificant.  What Prof. McCulloc is considering is the acceleration of the photons/electrons.

One really needs to understand the following:

What is accelerating?   <<huge accelerations (as Prof. McCulloc assumes for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) >> [http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html  ]
Where is it accelerating?
Why is it accelerating?
When is it accelerating?
What is the acceleration?
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 04:41 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1963 on: 10/11/2014 04:51 PM »
...

Hawking radiation is not just where particle pairs are pulled apart. It is also the mechanism for which information is conserved. It isn't a cause of information problems. A black hole slowly evaporates and returns that information back to the universe.
...

Rather than arguing about what Hawking radiation encompasses, and whether there is a Hawking radiation paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox  (certainly there is no consensus) and such esoteric topics, why don't we concentrate on the EM drive?

I propose we should strive to answer the questions I posed, starting by the first simple question: is the NASA Eagleworks drive a closed Faraday cage?  are the flat ends indeed made out of copper?

By every method I use, it appears to be copper all around. Shawyer's design is copper. Nasa tested Shawyer's design.

Information entropy and casual horizons do apply to emdrive. Since the Casimir effect is confirmed. I don't tend to question Unruh waves. Since an object approaching C gets baked by radiation, I don't tend to question Unruh Radiation.

That gray stuff over the large end cap is a cover used for something. I don't know what for.

At emdrive.com, Shawyer says it is an enclosed cavity. The nature of it being an enclosed cavity is why it is controversial. So I say we can keep operating as if it is enclosed.
Thank you.  That's progress.
Now to the 2nd question:

2) Is it correct to assume that the light/electrons in the EmDrive experience the huge accelerations required for Unruh radiation ?

Can we at least  "back of the envelope" calculate what are the accelerations involved ?  (never mind whether they are large enough)

What is accelerating? Why is it accelerating? When is it accelerating? What is the acceleration?


No this doesn't apply to electromagnetic radiation itself. It is already going the speed of light.

No, you just confused the heck out of me. Radiation doesn't experience Unruh radiation. It is radiation.

Quoting Prof. McCulloc:  << but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall because they are partly em waves and the electrons in the copper move to cancel the field,>>

The acceleration is the "a" in the formula you (at least momentarily) posted.

Again I ask you:

What is accelerating?   <<huge accelerations (as Prof. McCulloc assumes for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) >> [http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html  ]
Where is it accelerating?
Why is it accelerating?
When is it accelerating?
What is the acceleration?

The emdrive itself accelerating with respect to the universe or any observer.

Inside, the photons with respect to their emitter and the cavity walls.

A photon has no mass first, just momentum; secondly, it is already going C. There is no more to accelerate. It doesn't experience Unruh Radiation. It is radiation.

Please read what Prof. McCulloc wrote in his blog, including <<a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, >>

The acceleration of the EM drive center of mass is completely and utterly insignificant.  What Prof. McCulloc is considering is the acceleration of the photons/electrons.

One really needs to understand the following:

What is accelerating?   <<huge accelerations (as Prof. McCulloc assumes for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) >> [http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html  ]
Where is it accelerating?
Why is it accelerating?
When is it accelerating?
What is the acceleration?

"OK. This is why I'm thinking the EmDrive walls might make a horizon: MiHsC assumes that inertia is caused by Unruh waves and the Hubble horizon is a boundary for information so all patterns within the cosmos must close there otherwise they let us deduce what lies beyond (this looks like a Hubble-scale Casimir effect) this includes the Unruh waves, so it affects inertia. Now, for normal accelerations a metal box will not effect Unruh waves because for typical accelerations (9.8m/s^2) they are light years long, but for huge accelerations (as I assume for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) the Unruh waves are affected by the copper wall because they are partly em waves and the electrons in the copper move to cancel the field, so the Unruh wave patterns have to close at the wall just as at the Hubble horizon (but for a different reason), so we have a mini-MiHsC going on. In both cosmic & mini cases it seems to explain anomalies."

Making sense of this:

Outside, the hubble scale casimir effect is very small, meaning inertia is modified very little.
Accelerate the thing to very high speeds, you get a big difference.

Inside, the walls of the cavity act as an event horizon, lowering the inertial mass of the particle a little bit.
A very slightly lower mass. Not negative mass. Just less inertial mass.

Treat the inside of the cavity as the space between two parallel casimir plates.  Only fully enclosed. Then you'll get it. Less Unruh waves fit. Less energy in the system. Lower temperature in the device. Less interactions with the outside world and universe. Lower accelerations. Lower inertia.

The hubble scale of the inside of the cavity is its walls.

Here on earth, the effects are very very very small. Accelerate the thing a lot and they get big.

Read my summary.
« Last Edit: 11/01/2014 11:29 AM by Mulletron »
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Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1964 on: 10/11/2014 05:11 PM »
Sure could use some help testing these ideas with some math and ridicule.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1965 on: 10/11/2014 05:12 PM »
Quote
What is accelerating?   <<huge accelerations (as Prof. McCulloc assumes for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) >> [http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html  ]
Where is it accelerating?
Why is it accelerating?
When is it accelerating?
What is the acceleration?

Why is this a mystery? See my earlier post. The electrons within the cavity walls are accelerating in response to the RF wave. It is an AC acceleration of some amplitude at the frequency of the RF waves. Guess the amplitude of the electron oscillation, which is limited by the cavity dimensions and converted to heat by resistance. With the amplitude, then isn't the acceleration just the second derivative? What amplitude is needed to make the theory hold water?
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Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1966 on: 10/11/2014 05:17 PM »
Quote
What is accelerating?   <<huge accelerations (as Prof. McCulloc assumes for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) >> [http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html  ]
Where is it accelerating?
Why is it accelerating?
When is it accelerating?
What is the acceleration?

Why is this a mystery? See my earlier post. The electrons within the cavity walls are accelerating in response to the RF wave. It is an AC acceleration of some amplitude at the frequency of the RF waves. Guess the amplitude of the electron oscillation, which is limited by the cavity dimensions and converted to heat by resistance. With the amplitude, then isn't the acceleration just the second derivative? What amplitude is needed to make the theory hold water?

Amen. The rf field excites the particles in the walls. They get absorbed eventually like this and turn to heat. This is just a classic boundary condition. In addition to that, the material of the walls has a plasma frequency which sets its band gap. Frequencies that won't pass through. McCulloch was referring to the fields getting absorbed by the walls, setting the boundary conditions inside. Same as us.

Can we move on to the hard stuff now?
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 05:20 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1967 on: 10/11/2014 05:22 PM »
The field at any location outside the copper cavity includes the field contributed by internal charges. However, it looks as though the copper prevents the field from getting out, because the internal charges “polarize” the copper by shifting the mobile electrons in the metal, and the polarized copper contributes an additional electric field outside the container that is equal in magnitude but opposite in direction to the field contributed by the internal charges. The effect is indeed as though the copper “shielded” the copper cavity.

As the electric field contacts the copper, it accelerates the electrons (it accelerates the electrons much more than the protons, due to their very low mass). These accelerated electrons radiate electromagnetic radiation, like any accelerated charges. There are now additional field contributions that were not present in the absence of the electron-containing copper.

Consider what happens when the source charges are accelerated continuously, harmonically at a frequency up and down (which involves accelerations as the charges move faster and slower and turn around). Let the sinusoidal acceleration of those source charges continue for a sufficiently long time.  Then the sinusoidal radiation has a phase which is shifted. That is, the peaks come at a different time than they did without the copper interaction.  The interaction of the electric field with the copper can be (for nonobvious reasons) modeled by the electric field exerting a force on an outer electron in an atom as though the electron were bound to the atom by a spring-like force, with damping. The phase shifting is due to the damping term.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 05:25 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1968 on: 10/11/2014 05:23 PM »
Quote
What is accelerating?   <<huge accelerations (as Prof. McCulloc assumes for the light/electrons in the EmDrive) >> [http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html  ]
Where is it accelerating?
Why is it accelerating?
When is it accelerating?
What is the acceleration?

Why is this a mystery? See my earlier post. The electrons within the cavity walls are accelerating in response to the RF wave. It is an AC acceleration of some amplitude at the frequency of the RF waves. Guess the amplitude of the electron oscillation, which is limited by the cavity dimensions and converted to heat by resistance. With the amplitude, then isn't the acceleration just the second derivative? What amplitude is needed to make the theory hold water?

Yes, you understand it.  Now we have to calculate the acceleration involved, before talking about "horizons"

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1969 on: 10/11/2014 05:24 PM »
The field at any location outside the copper cavity includes the field contributed by internal charges. However, it looks as though the copper prevents the field from getting out, because the internal charges “polarize” the copper by shifting the mobile electrons in the metal, and the polarized copper contributes an additional electric field outside the container that is equal in magnitude but opposite in direction to the field contributed by the internal charges. The effect is indeed as though the copper “shielded” the copper cavity.

As the electric field contacts the copper, it accelerates the electrons (it accelerates the electrons much more than the protons, due to their very low mass). These accelerated electrons radiate electromagnetic radiation, like any accelerated charges. There are now additional field contributions that were not present in the absence of the electron-containing copper.

Consider what happens when the source charges are accelerated continuously, harmonically at a frequency up and down (which involves accelerations as the charges move faster and slower and turn around). Let the sinusoidal acceleration of those source charges continue for a sufficiently long time.  Then the sinusoidal radiation has a phase which is shifted. That is, the peaks come at a different time than they did without the copper interaction.  The interaction of the electric field with the copper can be (for nonobvious reasons) modeled by the electric field exerting a force on an outer electron in an atom as though the electron were bound to the atom by a spring-like force, with damping.

You are nuking rf cavities. This isn't a particle accelerator. Is that where you are going with this?

If I wanted to accelerate particles, say electrons, I would put positive thousands of volts on one side and negative volts on the other.

This thing has no cathode and no anode. We're on a tangent.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 05:30 PM by Mulletron »
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Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1970 on: 10/11/2014 05:29 PM »
The field at any location outside the copper cavity includes the field contributed by internal charges. However, it looks as though the copper prevents the field from getting out, because the internal charges “polarize” the copper by shifting the mobile electrons in the metal, and the polarized copper contributes an additional electric field outside the container that is equal in magnitude but opposite in direction to the field contributed by the internal charges. The effect is indeed as though the copper “shielded” the copper cavity.

As the electric field contacts the copper, it accelerates the electrons (it accelerates the electrons much more than the protons, due to their very low mass). These accelerated electrons radiate electromagnetic radiation, like any accelerated charges. There are now additional field contributions that were not present in the absence of the electron-containing copper.

Consider what happens when the source charges are accelerated continuously, harmonically at a frequency up and down (which involves accelerations as the charges move faster and slower and turn around). Let the sinusoidal acceleration of those source charges continue for a sufficiently long time.  Then the sinusoidal radiation has a phase which is shifted. That is, the peaks come at a different time than they did without the copper interaction.  The interaction of the electric field with the copper can be (for nonobvious reasons) modeled by the electric field exerting a force on an outer electron in an atom as though the electron were bound to the atom by a spring-like force, with damping.

You are nuking rf cavities. This isn't a particle accelerator. Is that where you are going with this?

Where I am going with this is that we have to examine quantitatively the assumptions involved to see whether they are valid before taking them for granted and discussing esoteric quantum gravity.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 05:30 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1971 on: 10/11/2014 05:36 PM »
...

If I wanted to accelerate particles, say electrons, I would put positive thousands of volts on one side and negative volts on the other.

This thing has no cathode and no anode. We're on a tangent.
Do I understand you correctly that you take for granted that the huge accelerations needed for Unruh radiation are present, and you think that calculating them is going on a tangent, but you think that esoteric quantum gravity unification discussion is not a tangent?

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1972 on: 10/11/2014 05:38 PM »
...

If I wanted to accelerate particles, say electrons, I would put positive thousands of volts on one side and negative volts on the other.

This thing has no cathode and no anode. We're on a tangent.
Do I understand you correctly that you take for granted that the huge accelerations needed for Unruh radiation are present, and you think that calculating them is going on a tangent, but you think that esoteric quantum gravity unification discussion is not a tangent?

No you don't understand  what I'm telling you. I've been saying for quite a while that Unruh Radiation is not a factor here. That comes up if you are undergoing very high accelerations. Nothing in this system is doing that.

You are confusing Unruh radiation and the length of allowable Unruh waves. Separate casimir from the heat bath of high acceleration.

Unfortunately Unruh radiation and Unruh waves share the same name. Leading to confusion of terms.

I never said what I observed last night wasn't a tangent. The beauty of his theory is applicable to emdrive and science as a whole. It is a tangent though.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 05:45 PM by Mulletron »
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Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1973 on: 10/11/2014 05:45 PM »
Well, make it easier. Assume no dissipation by other effects and consider only the electron motion in synchrony with the RF wave. Then the electron moves one complete cycle from A to B with one complete cycle of the RF wave. The cycle time of the RF wave, 1900 MHz, is 1/f = 5.26E-10 seconds. Limit the electron velocity to the speed of light so ... Ok, brain fart. Where does this go?
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Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1974 on: 10/11/2014 05:56 PM »
McCulloch, "so we have a mini-MiHsC going on"

Let's pick that apart.

I mentioned that in the summary. I interpreted the effect as a slightly lower inertial mass of particles inside the cavity. Less mass than you would have normally. Remember that there are 4 kinds of mass.

What can we do with that? What are the implications? Does that mean you got a free lunch?

IMHO, that is an opportunity to violate conservation of energy, which you can't. So the energy difference has to be converted to another type, or motion, or given back.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 05:59 PM by Mulletron »
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Offline Mulletron

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Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1976 on: 10/11/2014 06:16 PM »
Well, make it easier. Assume no dissipation by other effects and consider only the electron motion in synchrony with the RF wave. Then the electron moves one complete cycle from A to B with one complete cycle of the RF wave. The cycle time of the RF wave, 1900 MHz, is 1/f = 5.26E-10 seconds. Limit the electron velocity to the speed of light so ... Ok, brain fart. Where does this go?
Ok so we can't do it that way. Here is the correct way but its beyond my poor abilities today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity#Numerical_example

For alternating current, drift velocity is proportional to the square of frequency...
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Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1977 on: 10/11/2014 07:15 PM »
Well, make it easier. Assume no dissipation by other effects and consider only the electron motion in synchrony with the RF wave. Then the electron moves one complete cycle from A to B with one complete cycle of the RF wave. The cycle time of the RF wave, 1900 MHz, is 1/f = 5.26E-10 seconds. Limit the electron velocity to the speed of light so ... Ok, brain fart. Where does this go?
Ok so we can't do it that way. Here is the correct way but its beyond my poor abilities today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity#Numerical_example

For alternating current, drift velocity is proportional to the square of frequency...
I doubt Prof. McCulloch is referring to the drift velocity of charges (which is too low).  I have posed the question in his blog [http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.it/2014/10/mihsc-vs-emdrive-data-1.html ], to clarify this issue. Thanks.

I disagree with @Mulletron that the thicker the dielectric the better and Mulletron's assumption that what happens inside the dielectric is important.  I think that what happens at the surface of the copper walls and the surface of the dielectric is what matters.

I also disagree with Mulletron regarding the importance of the chirality of the Teflon, the effect in the paper quoted was extremely small even for 10 Tesla magnetic field (velocity of nanometers per second) and a 9 inch solid rod of Teflon that has been injection molded has practically no directionality according to my understanding of injection molding.

I disagree with Mulletron's understanding that Unruh Radiation is not important for the McCulloch inertia explanation of the EMDrive. Mulletron states that nothing is undergoing high accelerations in the EMDrive, but I read the opposite in McCulloch's statement concerning the acceleration of light/electrons.

Also I don't understand how Mulletron separates Unruh radiation from "allowable Unruh waves. Separate casimir". The Unruh wavelengths refer to the wavelengths of Unruh radiation. So how can they be separated?  I don't understand what "separate casimir" is.

Perhaps McCulloch can further clarify in his blog.  I have found McCulloch's short blog answers clarifying.   If I can be shown that I misunderstood something, that's all the better for me to understand what's going on and the explanation being offered.

 
« Last Edit: 10/11/2014 07:39 PM by Rodal »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1978 on: 10/11/2014 08:04 PM »
Fnarr Dr Rodal fnarr. (Look up Viz comic (Finbar Saunders) and especially Roger's Profanisaurus.)

OK. What mean 'fnarrr'?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1979 on: 10/11/2014 08:07 PM »
What would be the complications on conducting experiments in my garage?
I would need a copper frustum and optimised dielectric designed by you guys.
RF power source.
Suspend the whole thing from a wire and see if it moves.
Am I missing anything?

Actually, I don't think you're missing anything, if your setup could be optimized to demonstrate well above the noicse floor of the current setup.  If you're putting a couple hundred watts into it, and it moves like a rubber band airplane, then I'd say congratulations, you are success.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

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