Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 763573 times)

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1860 on: 10/10/2014 12:09 AM »
It looks like what is known as an injector/cone nozzle.  The cylinder section is the injector part, and the rest is the conical part of the nozzle.  Except that in an injector/cone, the injector is significantly shorter length in comparison with the cone length, and at the joint the cone diameter matches the injector diameter and here they do not.

Like you said, rather than having a can and a truncated cone joined, it looks like they put a can inside the truncated cone.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 12:15 AM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1861 on: 10/10/2014 12:17 AM »
Does anybody know whether this NASA truncated cone with a cylindrical can inside it, on the small end, was an early design by Shawyer?
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 12:18 AM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1862 on: 10/10/2014 12:20 AM »
I made up an illustration showing the general character of dark matter thrust resulting from the varying inertia within the cavity. I need to have some data before putting numbers to the thrust, maybe someone else is curious enough to do that. I'm happy that the thrust points in the right direction. See the text on my drawing for my explanation.
The question is, physically, what is responsible for the change in inertial mass of the particle in the picture ?

Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1863 on: 10/10/2014 12:25 AM »
I made up an illustration showing the general character of dark matter thrust resulting from the varying inertia within the cavity. I need to have some data before putting numbers to the thrust, maybe someone else is curious enough to do that. I'm happy that the thrust points in the right direction. See the text on my drawing for my explanation.
The question is, physically, what is responsible for the change in inertial mass of the particle in the picture ?

I thought Prof. M had already figured that out?
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Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1864 on: 10/10/2014 12:27 AM »
I made up an illustration showing the general character of dark matter thrust resulting from the varying inertia within the cavity. I need to have some data before putting numbers to the thrust, maybe someone else is curious enough to do that. I'm happy that the thrust points in the right direction. See the text on my drawing for my explanation.
The question is, physically, what is responsible for the change in inertial mass of the particle in the picture ?

I thought Prof. M had already figured that out?
OK

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1865 on: 10/10/2014 12:27 AM »
It is incorrect to think that it is a truncated cone on the inside.  Everything shows that it is a cylinder on one end joined to a truncated cone on the other end.  The mode shapes for such a geometric body are different than the mode shapes for a truncated cone as modeled by Egan.

And I don't think that the cylinder is there by accident. Somebody thought this through.


Yeah it looks like they put a can inside the cone for some reason. Good eye. Still I wanna see those modes.

OK, we can put it this way:

1) It is the first (lowest) mode of Egan for the truncated cone on the inside (next to the larger surface)

plus

2) the first (lowest) mode for the cylindrical can (located next to the smaller surface)
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 12:30 AM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1866 on: 10/10/2014 12:31 AM »
We're reaching the limit of what we can accomplish here. We've gone through a lot of ideas, excluding some and including others and we arrived at some slightly different yet congruent conclusions which may describe the anomalous thrust. They now need to be verified by peer review and experiment. Seems that any kind of seemingly reactionless drive requires a fundamental rethinking of the details of inertia, coupled with a more thorough understanding and verification of quantum thrust. Supporting data was included in the discussion. Hopefully our conclusions are read by others.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 12:35 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Online Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1867 on: 10/10/2014 12:31 AM »
It is incorrect to think that it is a truncated cone on the inside.  Everything shows that it is a cylinder on one end joined to a truncated cone on the other end.  The mode shapes for such a geometric body are different than the mode shapes for a truncated cone as modeled by Egan.

And I don't think that the cylinder is there by accident. Somebody thought this through.


Yeah it looks like they put a can inside the cone for some reason. Good eye. Still I wanna see those modes.

OK, we can put it this way:

1) It is the first (lowest) mode of Egan for the truncated cone on the inside (next to the larger surface)

plus

2) the first (lowest) mode for the cylindrical can (located next to the smaller surface)


Yup, that works

And it could account for the small freq diff depending on which mode is dominant.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 12:35 AM by Notsosureofit »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1868 on: 10/10/2014 12:33 AM »
It is incorrect to think that it is a truncated cone on the inside.  Everything shows that it is a cylinder on one end joined to a truncated cone on the other end.  The mode shapes for such a geometric body are different than the mode shapes for a truncated cone as modeled by Egan.

And I don't think that the cylinder is there by accident. Somebody thought this through.


Yeah it looks like they put a can inside the cone for some reason. Good eye. Still I wanna see those modes.

OK, we can put it this way:

1) It is the first (lowest) mode of Egan for the truncated cone on the inside (next to the larger surface)

plus

2) the first (lowest) mode for the cylindrical can (located next to the smaller surface)


Gotta see the COSMOL plot and see if it agrees.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1869 on: 10/10/2014 12:34 AM »
It is incorrect to think that it is a truncated cone on the inside.  Everything shows that it is a cylinder on one end joined to a truncated cone on the other end.  The mode shapes for such a geometric body are different than the mode shapes for a truncated cone as modeled by Egan.

And I don't think that the cylinder is there by accident. Somebody thought this through.


Yeah it looks like they put a can inside the cone for some reason. Good eye. Still I wanna see those modes.

OK, we can put it this way:

1) It is the first (lowest) mode of Egan for the truncated cone on the inside (next to the larger surface)

plus

2) the first (lowest) mode for the cylindrical can (located next to the smaller surface)


Yup, that works

This may also explain the mess that is going on at 1933 MHz, since the inside is not a pure geometrical body but a cylinder inside the smaller end of a truncated cone
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 12:37 AM by Rodal »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1870 on: 10/10/2014 12:51 AM »
Congratulations, you just invented a propless sub.

Not yet he ain't.

There's an experimental apparatus there for the taking.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 01:02 AM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1871 on: 10/10/2014 12:57 AM »
Congratulations, you just invented a propless sub.

Not yet he ain't.

Ther's an experimental apparatus there for the taking.
Keep it secret from the Russian and Chinese navies will ya?  Sheeeez

Parla sotto voce

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive

This already is a thing, done differently.

The whole thing Dr. White is up to with QVPT is MHD on the QV and WIMPS.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 01:01 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1872 on: 10/10/2014 01:05 AM »
Hopefully our conclusions are read by others.

E parlando di "sottovoce" ... Credo di dire, una voce razionale:

Do summarize, both for the peanut gallery, and for the class clown.

The expository writing skills are strong in this one.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1873 on: 10/10/2014 01:09 AM »
Is there really any way we can help move the science along any faster? Is this discussion followed?
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1874 on: 10/10/2014 01:20 AM »
That's the moment I passed the Turing test.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1875 on: 10/10/2014 01:22 AM »
Is there really any way we can help move the science along any faster? Is this discussion followed?

Partly.  The spirit is willing, but the mind is weak.  [sotto voce: don't tell anybody  I said this.]  Do summarize. Experiments cost money. Thoughts do not.  You're a good writer.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1876 on: 10/10/2014 01:29 AM »
It's time to do some maths.

If the maths work.

Build a better one.

Then test it.

« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 01:30 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline ThinkerX

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1877 on: 10/10/2014 01:37 AM »
Quote
Do summarize, both for the peanut gallery, and for the class clown.

Agreed. 

If my feeble yet fascinated understanding is anywhere near the mark, this device might actually be workable.

(I found the notion of something similar (?) being used to propel a submarine downright fascinating.)

So...do the math's, do a summary, and if it can be tracked down again, put it in the 'Google Document' deal. 

Maybe DIYer or some other hands on type will build one of these things.

Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1878 on: 10/10/2014 01:39 AM »
Truth be told, a summary of the process of this thread from concept to conclusion would make a good read. It would also be book length if the ideas that seemed viable at first were summarized and discarded. Of course, at this point they have all been discarded or dropped for lack of data. The problem with following up on any one of the ideas is in part, that the posts are so intermixed ... it would be the same problem for anyone who tried to summarize the ideas in any order but that could be worked as a single task at least.

If I felt strongly about it, I would save the thread as a print file, open several editor/word processor windows/files, then cut and paste from the print file into the appropriate editor. After that, tech writing ...
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Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1879 on: 10/10/2014 02:08 AM »
It's time to do some maths.

If the maths work.

Build a better one.

Then test it.

Before that, ya got to tell 's what 'ya think the Teflon dielectric is for 'n why ya wanta put it at the wide enda  :)

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