Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 794826 times)

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1680 on: 10/07/2014 05:24 PM »
Something I was wondering late last night when I was thinking of cathode ray tubes and their shape. Who's to say that radio waves are even the best approach anyway? Considering the modes that are blocked out by the enclosed cavity of the cone shape; what exactly is being blocked? It would depend on the plasma frequency of the material. In any event, it leaves a gap in the electromagnetic spectrum. Picture it as a quiet zone in the vast noise of the EM spectrum. The device, I have said is working on casimir interaction informed by McCulloch et al. That means the modes being excluded are the ones we should be USING to excite the cavity. The spectral shape of the bands excluded is likely to be complex, as is the case with permittivity.

Anyone ever see a CRT shoot across the room?  :P

Does anyone have any idea how exactly the momentum from a photon can couple to a dielectric, like the Abraham-Minkowski controversy and how this relates to the refractive index of a material? I loosely grasp it honestly. I think the emdrive would work without the dielectric, but it would work BETTER with the dielectric.

Photo is a model for clarity.

Thoughts?



« Last Edit: 10/07/2014 05:52 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1681 on: 10/07/2014 05:26 PM »
I think that's unlikely.  Paul has been looking at teflon for along time and probably because he is of the opinion that Woodward's and White's models form different sides of the same coin.  Paul believes both Woodward and White are correct.  Even though i can't agree, I would note that one logical response to this belief is to stick dielectric into a resonator to test Jim's theory.  Sonny would never do this--test Woodward's work--unless he had convinced himself he was testing his own model at the same time.  Teflon has a very poor k~2, but it is good up into microwave territory.  Most ceramics the k drops off way before.  In fact I only know of one that maintains it's high k to about 1 Ghz, and that is single crystal.  They are certainly not using that.

Probably just a teflon sheet, though if its there to check Woodward's theory, then it is installed with one side against one of the ends of the resonator chamber and would act in 1/4 wave fashion.

Thanks, Ron as your post should motivate further reflection on what dielectric material NASA used for the truncated cone. Teflon was an initial assumption (just based on the fact that Teflon was the only dielectric material mentioned in the report, albeit for the Cannae drive).  We didn't have your additional arguments.

Let me add another argument: I expect a more nonlinear response from Teflon (PTFE) than from a ceramic, particularly with Teflon exposed to an electric field ~ 45000 Volt/meter [Note this is based on back of the envelope calculations: not too different a field than from the maximum for the Cannae drive, NASA did not give the COMSOL numbers for the truncated cone electric field, particularly at the dielectric resonator]

Interested on what others  think about Ron's reasoning above for Teflon instead of a ceramic as the dielectric  for NASA's truncated cone.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700003017.pdf

???

Great reference.  See page 45 for Teflon.  At 2Ghz it starts to get nonlinear, however this is at what amount of electric field and temperature?

Look around 30 GHz

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1682 on: 10/07/2014 06:18 PM »
I think that's unlikely.  Paul has been looking at teflon for along time and probably because he is of the opinion that Woodward's and White's models form different sides of the same coin.  Paul believes both Woodward and White are correct.  Even though i can't agree, I would note that one logical response to this belief is to stick dielectric into a resonator to test Jim's theory.  Sonny would never do this--test Woodward's work--unless he had convinced himself he was testing his own model at the same time.  Teflon has a very poor k~2, but it is good up into microwave territory.  Most ceramics the k drops off way before.  In fact I only know of one that maintains it's high k to about 1 Ghz, and that is single crystal.  They are certainly not using that.

Probably just a teflon sheet, though if its there to check Woodward's theory, then it is installed with one side against one of the ends of the resonator chamber and would act in 1/4 wave fashion.

Thanks, Ron as your post should motivate further reflection on what dielectric material NASA used for the truncated cone. Teflon was an initial assumption (just based on the fact that Teflon was the only dielectric material mentioned in the report, albeit for the Cannae drive).  We didn't have your additional arguments.

Let me add another argument: I expect a more nonlinear response from Teflon (PTFE) than from a ceramic, particularly with Teflon exposed to an electric field ~ 45000 Volt/meter [Note this is based on back of the envelope calculations: not too different a field than from the maximum for the Cannae drive, NASA did not give the COMSOL numbers for the truncated cone electric field, particularly at the dielectric resonator]

Interested on what others  think about Ron's reasoning above for Teflon instead of a ceramic as the dielectric  for NASA's truncated cone.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700003017.pdf

???

Great reference.  See page 45 for Teflon.  At 2Ghz it starts to get nonlinear, however this is at what amount of electric field and temperature?

Look around 30 GHz

OK I'm back to this.  Here I attach the graph showing the dielectric properties of Teflon vs frequency.

@notsosureofit :  why look at 30GHz if the NASA tests operated at 2 GHz? 

I propose the following:  just like the glass transition temperature of polymers shift with the WLF equation, the dielectric properties also are a function of temperature and electric field
« Last Edit: 10/07/2014 06:19 PM by Rodal »

Offline Ron Stahl

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1683 on: 10/07/2014 06:25 PM »
I'd be very interested to see the piezo and electrostrictive coefficients for this.

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1684 on: 10/07/2014 06:31 PM »
I think that's unlikely.  Paul has been looking at teflon for along time and probably because he is of the opinion that Woodward's and White's models form different sides of the same coin.  Paul believes both Woodward and White are correct.  Even though i can't agree, I would note that one logical response to this belief is to stick dielectric into a resonator to test Jim's theory.  Sonny would never do this--test Woodward's work--unless he had convinced himself he was testing his own model at the same time.  Teflon has a very poor k~2, but it is good up into microwave territory.  Most ceramics the k drops off way before.  In fact I only know of one that maintains it's high k to about 1 Ghz, and that is single crystal.  They are certainly not using that.

Probably just a teflon sheet, though if its there to check Woodward's theory, then it is installed with one side against one of the ends of the resonator chamber and would act in 1/4 wave fashion.

Thanks, Ron as your post should motivate further reflection on what dielectric material NASA used for the truncated cone. Teflon was an initial assumption (just based on the fact that Teflon was the only dielectric material mentioned in the report, albeit for the Cannae drive).  We didn't have your additional arguments.

Let me add another argument: I expect a more nonlinear response from Teflon (PTFE) than from a ceramic, particularly with Teflon exposed to an electric field ~ 45000 Volt/meter [Note this is based on back of the envelope calculations: not too different a field than from the maximum for the Cannae drive, NASA did not give the COMSOL numbers for the truncated cone electric field, particularly at the dielectric resonator]

Interested on what others  think about Ron's reasoning above for Teflon instead of a ceramic as the dielectric  for NASA's truncated cone.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700003017.pdf

???

Great reference.  See page 45 for Teflon.  At 2Ghz it starts to get nonlinear, however this is at what amount of electric field and temperature?

Look around 30 GHz

OK I'm back to this.  Here I attach the graph showing the dielectric properties of Teflon vs frequency.

@notsosureofit :  why look at 30GHz if the NASA tests operated at 2 GHz? 

I propose the following:  just like the glass transition temperature of polymers shift with the WLF equation, the dielectric properties also are a function of temperature and electric field

Because if the 2GHz is just providing energy for some other interaction, be it M-E or axion, etc.  It will be happening at the 30GHz atomic resonance where the impedances might find a match. (or at least act as a capacitive frequency multiplier or mixer)

PS:  anyone been able to open p.17 of the report ? (OK 5th time never fails)
« Last Edit: 10/07/2014 06:56 PM by Notsosureofit »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1685 on: 10/07/2014 07:02 PM »
I'd be very interested to see the piezo and electrostrictive coefficients for this.

I had looked at piezo a couple of weeks ago, and I can't find the report now.  I remember that there has been a fair amount of activity during the last few years measuring properties of Teflon and that Teflon had positive piezoelectric coefficient and that it was not negligible (of course much lower than materials that are normally used for piezoelectric effect). Can't comment on electrostrictive coefficient.
« Last Edit: 10/07/2014 07:04 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1686 on: 10/07/2014 07:05 PM »
...
PS:  anyone been able to open p.17 of the report ? (OK 5th time never fails)

No problem opening page 17.  I attach it here

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1687 on: 10/07/2014 07:10 PM »
Oh here it is! That's all folks! :o
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Ron Stahl

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1688 on: 10/07/2014 07:26 PM »
Well, on the teflon issue--a quick scan shows PTFE has a piezo coefficient about 2-3 orders below things like PZT, which is about 0.1%.  According to this, it also has a good electrostrictive coefficient:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=832050&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F6733%2F18004%2F00832050.pdf%3Farnumber%3D832050

And PTFE is easy to dope, so for example one could use the percolation threshold technique and Schottky Barrier to generate a very large k despite it has a crummy k.  Given these, Teflon is not a bad choice for an M-E dielectric.

We don't know if extrinsic contributions to k can be used for M-E generation.  The materials science is just not there yet.  In fact, what we want to do is use these mechanisms with materials we already know work, to determine more about how M-E is stored.  However, given these extrinsic mechanism can store M-E, is is easy to see how it could be used especially at millimeter wave frequencies to get thrust.  A simple sinewave is sufficient since the material itself has 1w piezo response and 2w electrostrictive response.  If the piezo response is negative, the two will add rather than subtract where they overlap and pronounced effects should be observed.  So if this is what Eagle is doing, I suggest dope the PTFE with carbon nanotubes and see if that doesn't jump the thrust several orders magnitude through percolation threshold contribution.

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1689 on: 10/07/2014 07:48 PM »
Well, on the teflon issue--a quick scan shows PTFE has a piezo coefficient about 2-3 orders below things like PZT, which is about 0.1%.  According to this, it also has a good electrostrictive coefficient:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=832050&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F6733%2F18004%2F00832050.pdf%3Farnumber%3D832050

And PTFE is easy to dope, so for example one could use the percolation threshold technique and Schottky Barrier to generate a very large k despite it has a crummy k.  Given these, Teflon is not a bad choice for an M-E dielectric.

We don't know if extrinsic contributions to k can be used for M-E generation.  The materials science is just not there yet.  In fact, what we want to do is use these mechanisms with materials we already know work, to determine more about how M-E is stored.  However, given these extrinsic mechanism can store M-E, is is easy to see how it could be used especially at millimeter wave frequencies to get thrust.  A simple sinewave is sufficient since the material itself has 1w piezo response and 2w electrostrictive response.  If the piezo response is negative, the two will add rather than subtract where they overlap and pronounced effects should be observed.  So if this is what Eagle is doing, I suggest dope the PTFE with carbon nanotubes and see if that doesn't jump the thrust several orders magnitude through percolation threshold contribution.
But, from my R&D work in polymers, PTFE properties are very dependent on temperature, strain rate, strain, and other variables.  It is a thermoplastic, without any cross-linking.  As @notsosureofit stated it will have very complicated properties.  If it is doped the properties are going to be even more complicated (it will be inhomogenous and if loaded with carbon nannotubes it may become anisotropic if preferentially aligned).  It would not be my first choice for an R&D program unless I would have a lab with a dielectrometer, FTIR, DSC, TGA, TMA, DTMA and an MTS to investigate its nonlinear properties as a function of several variables and fully characterize it...

I have actually investigated the properties of polymers like this versus frequency (like p. 45 of this report) and I know that this tan delta curve (see below) is very dependent on other variables .   

Also, there are several qualities of PTFE in the market, who knows what kind of PTFE they actually had.

But, as an empirical, approach, like Edison did so well for investigating materials for the light bulb, I think the idea of "suggest dope the PTFE with carbon nanotubes and see if that doesn't jump the thrust several orders magnitude through percolation threshold contribution." is a very good idea. 

The problem is that like Mulletron said, why didn't NASA run more experiments?  It looks like it takes a long time to just run a few experiments and there are countless material choices to explore...

« Last Edit: 10/07/2014 08:07 PM by Rodal »

Offline zen-in

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1690 on: 10/07/2014 08:14 PM »
Well, on the teflon issue--a quick scan shows PTFE has a piezo coefficient about 2-3 orders below things like PZT, which is about 0.1%.  According to this, it also has a good electrostrictive coefficient:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=832050&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F6733%2F18004%2F00832050.pdf%3Farnumber%3D832050

And PTFE is easy to dope, so for example one could use the percolation threshold technique and Schottky Barrier to generate a very large k despite it has a crummy k.  Given these, Teflon is not a bad choice for an M-E dielectric.

We don't know if extrinsic contributions to k can be used for M-E generation.  The materials science is just not there yet.  In fact, what we want to do is use these mechanisms with materials we already know work, to determine more about how M-E is stored.  However, given these extrinsic mechanism can store M-E, is is easy to see how it could be used especially at millimeter wave frequencies to get thrust.  A simple sinewave is sufficient since the material itself has 1w piezo response and 2w electrostrictive response.  If the piezo response is negative, the two will add rather than subtract where they overlap and pronounced effects should be observed.  So if this is what Eagle is doing, I suggest dope the PTFE with carbon nanotubes and see if that doesn't jump the thrust several orders magnitude through percolation threshold contribution.
But, from my R&D work in polymers, PTFE properties are very dependent on temperature, strain rate, strain, and other variables.  It is a thermoplastic, without any cross-linking.  As @notsosureofit stated it will have very complicated properties.  If it is doped the properties are going to be even more complicated (it will be inhomogenous and if loaded with carbon nannotubes it may become anisotropic if preferentially aligned).  It would not be my first choice for an R&D program unless I would have a lab with a dielectrometer, FTIR, DSC, TGA, TMA, DTMA and an MTS to investigate its nonlinear properties as a function of several variables and fully characterize it...

I have actually investigated the properties of polymers like this versus frequency (like p. 45 of this report) and I know that this tan delta curve (see below) is very dependent on other variables .   

Also, there are several qualities of PTFE in the market, who knows what kind of PTFE they actually had.

But, as an empirical, approach, like Edison did so well for investigating materials for the light bulb, I think the idea of "suggest dope the PTFE with carbon nanotubes and see if that doesn't jump the thrust several orders magnitude through percolation threshold contribution." is a very good idea. 

The problem is that like Mulletron said, why didn't NASA run more experiments?  It looks like it takes a long time to just run a few experiments and there are countless material choices to explore...

Those graphs look like they are old and out of date.   PTFE is widely used as a substrate in microwave pcbs and other places where its low loss over wide microwave frequencies is required.   I extracted the following graph from this recent paper:
www.radioeng.cz/fulltexts/2012/12_02_0551_0556.pdf
When I have some time I will post some pictures of 900 MHz ceramic resonators.   Every cell phone has a few of them inside.   Cell phones would not be so slim and lightweight without them.   It's possible they are using a 965 MHz ceramic filter in a frequency doubled mode.
« Last Edit: 10/07/2014 08:15 PM by zen-in »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1691 on: 10/07/2014 08:46 PM »
...
Those graphs look like they are old and out of date.   PTFE is widely used as a substrate in microwave pcbs and other places where its low loss over wide microwave frequencies is required.   ..

While this additional reference is useful and I appreciate it, I would not characterize the older one (NASA Langley) out of date.  This new reference (please correct me if I am wrong) as well as the older one does not chemically characterize the type of PTFE being tested, nor the manufacturing method used to make it.. (Actually many specifics of the manufacturing process are proprietary trade secrets of the manufacturers.)  They treat PTFE as a generic material that should have the same properties regardless of manufacturer or manufacturing method (a most dangerous thing to assume particularly with polymers).  If properties differ between tested material properties for polymers between different sources, one may consider that the difference may be real due to different manufacturing used for the polymers being tested.   Actually, it is not unknown that the same manufacturer may have produced polymers, under the same brand name, with different properties from time to time...
« Last Edit: 10/07/2014 08:53 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1692 on: 10/07/2014 09:09 PM »

Those graphs look like they are old and out of date.   PTFE is widely used as a substrate in microwave pcbs and other places where its low loss over wide microwave frequencies is required.   I extracted the following graph from this recent paper:
www.radioeng.cz/fulltexts/2012/12_02_0551_0556.pdf
When I have some time I will post some pictures of 900 MHz ceramic resonators.   Every cell phone has a few of them inside.   Cell phones would not be so slim and lightweight without them.   It's possible they are using a 965 MHz ceramic filter in a frequency doubled mode.
I attach a graph from http://goo.gl/wv0Tyl  showing the mechanical properties (storage modulus E, loss modulus E and the ratio between these, the mechanical tan delta) of PTFE. A step in the storage modulus was measured at -123C (onset temperature). This transition, which was not detected by the other methods employed is most probably due to a g-relaxation . Between 19C (onset) and 39C (end temperature), a further step of a factor of 3 can be seen in the storage modulus. Please observe that this transition (comprising a change of a factor of 3 in storage modulus occurs at room temperature !!!!!  )

The storage modulus E' is essentially (for practical purposes) the elastic modulus.  This shows that Teflon is very nonlinear at room temperature and its properties are very dependent on temperature even in the room temperature range


I also attach below the thermal diffusivity and thermal conductivity of Teflon showing transitions in the room temperature range !!!

At 110C (onset), a further slope change can be seen in the storage modulus. This effect can be explained by the glass transition of the amorphous contents of the sample.

Very nonlinear material , would not be my first choice to use without a lab to fully characterize it, and to my knowledge Eagleworks does not have FTIR, DSC, TMA, TGA, DTMA, dielectrometry, MTS, thermal conductivity tester, etc. Solo dicendo  ;)
« Last Edit: 10/07/2014 10:59 PM by Rodal »

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1693 on: 10/07/2014 09:18 PM »
You might want to use a URL shortener for that PDF; it's breaking the forum formatting!

Offline Ron Stahl

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1694 on: 10/07/2014 09:19 PM »
The problem is that like Mulletron said, why didn't NASA run more experiments?  It looks like it takes a long time to just run a few experiments and there are countless material choices to explore...
They probably did, the day after the conference.  You know these things are never timed well.  They just went out with what they had at the time in order to get some press.  When you're raising money for your lab, any press is good press.
« Last Edit: 10/07/2014 09:19 PM by Ron Stahl »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1695 on: 10/07/2014 09:24 PM »
You might want to use a URL shortener for that PDF; it's breaking the forum formatting!
Thank you @RotoSequence, great suggestion !   :)
Done

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1696 on: 10/08/2014 12:42 AM »
I was looking for any evidence that dark matter interacts with RF waves. This leads to considering the red shift as perhaps due to dark matter interaction.

I found one guy who claims that dark matter does not exist, the missing mass is diatomic hydrogen. That was interesting so here is the link.

http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/hydrogen/

I found another guy who claims that light interaction with dark matter does cause the red shift. That was more interesting because he gave some math. Under the constraints of his model, which seem valid for light in interstellar space, he gives the equation:

dp/dt = -H p as the change in momentum, p, of a photon, where H is the Hubble constant equals about 2.2 x 10^-18 per second.
Note that the value of H has been changing and being refined rapidly over the last few years. This value is from about 2013.

The reason this is interesting is because this change in momentum attributed to dark matter implies an equal and opposite change in momentum in the dark matter.

At this point I'm not going to derive the effect that this proposed coupling of RF wave photons and dark matter may have on the thruster cavity. It seems small though.

Here is the link:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0704/0704.1044.pdf


As to frequencies expected to strongly couple with dark matter look at the ADXM Axion Dark Matter Experiment (slide 30):

http://indico.cern.ch/event/300768/session/0/contribution/30/material/slides/1.pdf

This shows that the cavity frequencies are from 0.5 GHz to 10 GHz

NASA Eagleworks experiments were at ~ 2 GHz which seems to be the ADXM target at the end of the 2014 target (please notice that the horizontal scales are logarithmic). So ADXM has NOT looked for Dark Matter at the frequencies tested by NASA Eagleworks yet.

« Last Edit: 10/08/2014 12:44 AM by Rodal »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1697 on: 10/08/2014 12:42 AM »
John Baez, who is not to be confused with Albert Baez, the physicist, mathematician,  Joan Baez's father, and the narrator and star of the most excellent physics movie which I ever saw, back in HS, with Mr. Russo, physics teacher, who also taught me elementary Russian, has a list, which a new friend of mine told me about.

[grammatical note: I don't think I need to use semi-colons, but hey.  One of you guys will be on it if I should have.]

Ipso fatso, I present:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html

You get five points just for passing the Turing test!  Too bad I can't post it on the thread that I started with such promise:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34318.msg1175864#msg1175864

Why, I ask, do the heathen rage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Baez

More importantly:

The movie, black and white, 16mm, introduced a number of things about physics, the most noteworthy being a room full of ping pong balls on loaded mousetraps.  Mr. Baez threw in the first ping pong  ball to start the chain reaction.  It was spectacular.  In one of the handful of brilliant moves that I've made here and there in the cosmos, I asked if we could see that part backwards.

And lo, Athena smiled upon me, Mr. Russo granted permission, and the projectionist reversed the chain reaction to the point where the first ball magically flew back into Mr. Baez's hand.  The class erupted in applause.  I gotta hug from my would be GF at the time.
« Last Edit: 10/08/2014 01:57 AM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1698 on: 10/08/2014 01:04 AM »

More importantly:

The movie, black and white, 16mm, introduced a number of things about physics, the most noteworthy being a room full of ping pong balls on loaded mousetraps.  Mr. Baez threw in the first ping pong  ball to start the chain reaction.  It was spectacular.  In one of the handful of brilliant moves that I've made here and there in the cosmos, I asked if we could see that part backwards.

And lo, Athena smiled upon me, Mr. Russo granted permission, and the projectionist reversed the chain reaction to the point where the first ball magically flew back into Mr. Baez's hand.  The class erupted in applause.  I gotta hug from my would be GF at the time.

Just reading this <<10 points for each favorable comparison of yourself to Einstein, or claim that special or general relativity are fundamentally misguided (without good evidence).>> Wait a minute, full stop  !!!!!, I just realized that the John S. Fornaro (with the "?" ) in that picture above does not look like this one   :):


« Last Edit: 10/08/2014 01:31 AM by Rodal »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1699 on: 10/08/2014 01:55 AM »
It's a temporal issue, my good doctor.  Time is assymetric.

As Rafiki sez:  "Loook harder"

Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

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