Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 763488 times)

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1460 on: 10/05/2014 02:38 PM »
.....This problem is related to a whole other obsession I had since I learned about "A new kind of Science" where I was trying to make sense of information and computation giving rise to the universe. ...
Concerning Wolfram's "A new kind of science," do you use Wolfram's Mathematica ?  I use Mathematica a lot since version 1, was quite happy with version 9.  Disappointed with all the bugs in initial version 10.  They just came out with a patch for version 10, and I'm testing it now, while I continue to use my version 9 programs for my work.
I have never used Mathematica. In my job I mostly deal with electronic engineering. I know a lot about radars, communications (satellite mostly), and navigation equipment like gyros. Hence why I have a clue about waveguides and I speak in terms of a layman and analyze things as a system and try to deduce patterns logically. I'm not a scientist and I don't do advanced math. I'm trying very hard to not be a crank but I want to be open minded. I see holes in theories which are evident by things like the emdrive. I'm not so full of hubris to just shitcan the whole idea of emdrives because it is taboo. I have no reputation as a famous scientist/professor to worry about. I really don't understand this stuff fully. I have always been a science geek since I was a little kid and science was my thing all through school enough to compete at a state level, but I don't do this at work. I'm trying to figure it out because I believe that while GR is correct, it is not complete until it is unified with QM and I believe the philosophy of science dominant now days, along with the unwillingness to continually test and push the limits of the sacred cows of science, is fundamentally holding us back. And I want a hovercar.

« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 02:39 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline frobnicat

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1461 on: 10/05/2014 02:54 PM »
.../...
In my job I mostly deal with electronic engineering. I know a lot about radars, communications (satellite mostly), and navigation equipment like gyros. Hence why I have a clue about waveguides ...
.../...

Sorry to skip the rest but, about that, do you know of any possible rectifier effect in dielectrics, that is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term ?

Quote
And I want a hovercar.

Yeah. So do I. But you know reality doesn't much care about making achievable all what we want ?

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1462 on: 10/05/2014 03:08 PM »
.../...
In my job I mostly deal with electronic engineering. I know a lot about radars, communications (satellite mostly), and navigation equipment like gyros. Hence why I have a clue about waveguides ...
.../...

Sorry to skip the rest but, about that, do you know of any possible rectifier effect in dielectrics, that is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term ?


@frobnicat,

Assume that such effect would exist for discussion purposes

A) what would explain flipping the direction (hence the sign) of the thrust force when flipping orientation

B) what would explain that a microwave frequency of 1932 MHz would have twice the measured thrust force as 1936 MHz, with the Q value being 1/4th as much as with the higher frequency?

« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 03:09 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1463 on: 10/05/2014 03:20 PM »
Having said that, my Mathematica analysis of the coupled nonlinear differential equations of the inverted pendulum is showing that the NASA Eagleworks results may be due to real thrust.  However without knowing the actual magnitude of the magnetic damping I am unclear at this point whether and how much is the distortion from the test and how much is real.

The big unknown I have is the magnitude of the magnetic damping.  Unfortunately Paul March has stopped communication some time ago. If he could provide the C value for the magnetic damping, it would be very helpful.  I would even perhaps be able to confirm that the NASA Eaglewoks results are real.

That is serious top notch work you're doing.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline frobnicat

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1464 on: 10/05/2014 03:20 PM »
Propeller/slow wind : power of the device is used to accelerate DM particles.

I would like to read more about this approach.

Basically, pushing on a slow moving medium (relative to ship) is a good way to get high thrust/power ratio. In a dense medium, the ejection speed to get a given level of thrust (relative to the size of thruster) is low. For instance in air a propeller does a pretty decent thrust with ejection speeds around 100m/s (give or take). The higher the ejection speed, the higher the thrust but also lower efficiency. But still much better than photon rocket (ignoring medium and pushing on "pure energy" from the onboard generator).

Now with a very very scarce medium, the amount of mass/s that can be swallowed by the thruster is so weak that it takes very high ejection speeds to get a thrust level of any significance. When the scarcity of the medium implies relativistic ejection velocities to get interesting thrust, then the fact to use a medium mass at all becomes irrelevant because you put more energy as kinetic energy than the energy equivalence of harvested mass : if you have that much onboard energy to spend on kinetic energy of the jet, then just creating the rest mass (from energy) of what you are ejecting becomes a negligible term. You are almost as good with a photon rocket and ignoring the medium.

So that basically means that, given the scarcity of DM, it is worthless as a reaction mass. But it is better from its energy equivalent content. Harvesting this mass for its energy, and using this energy to power a photon drive, is the better achievable possible use of naturally occurring DM. This is not unlike a Bussard ramjet : treating the medium not as a passive reserve of mass to push on with onboard generator power, but converting a significant part of mass to energy and using this energy to power a fast jet.

And it falls short of explaining the results, unless you took all the most extremely favorable values together, sounds very unlikely to me. So the propeller/slow wind approach, being much worse, 3 orders of magnitude below, is clearly discarded.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1465 on: 10/05/2014 03:25 PM »
Figure 22 on page 18 worries me. That upward slope over 30 seconds while the rf was on and a slow fade after rf was off says heat was the cause. 70uN thrust/60uN heat.

Bingo!

Yes, that's the coupling between the magnetic damping and the field from the power cable I have been writing about.  Notice that the coupling is HUGE.  By their own admission the "null" signal is 25% of the good signal !!!!!

And they subtract the coupling "null" signal as if the problem would be linear.  They do not take into account any nonlinearities.  There is no finite element (No COMSOL) analysis of the magnetic coupling problem

Yeah all the modes show some heat or something else too.

Yes, but it looks like there is something real exciting the system.  The only argument I see now for an artifact would be that the magnetic damping is interacting with the power cable AND the dielectric effect. Because they measure no thrust without the dielectric.  And because flipping the orientation of the dielectric flips the direction of the thrust.  So if it is an artifact one would have to explain it as a result of the magnetic fields (from the damping and the power cable) interacting with the dielectric.

Are you speaking precisely when you say flipping the orientation of the dielectric flips direction of thrust? I know they flipped the whole thing but this is different. If there is any chirality to PTFE, it makes a difference.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1466 on: 10/05/2014 03:29 PM »
Figure 22 on page 18 worries me. That upward slope over 30 seconds while the rf was on and a slow fade after rf was off says heat was the cause. 70uN thrust/60uN heat.

Bingo!

Yes, that's the coupling between the magnetic damping and the field from the power cable I have been writing about.  Notice that the coupling is HUGE.  By their own admission the "null" signal is 25% of the good signal !!!!!

And they subtract the coupling "null" signal as if the problem would be linear.  They do not take into account any nonlinearities.  There is no finite element (No COMSOL) analysis of the magnetic coupling problem

Yeah all the modes show some heat or something else too.

Yes, but it looks like there is something real exciting the system.  The only argument I see now for an artifact would be that the magnetic damping is interacting with the power cable AND the dielectric effect. Because they measure no thrust without the dielectric.  And because flipping the orientation of the dielectric flips the direction of the thrust.  So if it is an artifact one would have to explain it as a result of the magnetic fields (from the damping and the power cable) interacting with the dielectric.

Are you speaking precisely when you say flipping the orientation of the dielectric flips direction of thrust? I know they flipped the whole thing but this is different. If there is any chirality to PTFE, it makes a difference.

Read "flipping [by 180 degrees around the vertical axis] orientation of the EM drive" flips the direction of the thrust (changing the sign of the thrust, just about same magnitue).

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1467 on: 10/05/2014 03:33 PM »
So that basically means that, given the scarcity of DM, it is worthless as a reaction mass. But it is better from its energy equivalent content. Harvesting this mass for its energy, and using this energy to power a photon drive,..
But the photons need to escape the EM Drive to get propulsion.  How are the photons getting out of the drive? Do you see the downstream surface to be porous to photons traveling through it?

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1468 on: 10/05/2014 03:55 PM »
.../...
In my job I mostly deal with electronic engineering. I know a lot about radars, communications (satellite mostly), and navigation equipment like gyros. Hence why I have a clue about waveguides ...
.../...

Sorry to skip the rest but, about that, do you know of any possible rectifier effect in dielectrics, that is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term ?

Quote
And I want a hovercar.

Yeah. So do I. But you know reality doesn't much care about making achievable all what we want ?


All the rectifiers I'm familiar with use diodes. You can do it old school with tubes.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline frobnicat

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1469 on: 10/05/2014 03:56 PM »
So that basically means that, given the scarcity of DM, it is worthless as a reaction mass. But it is better from its energy equivalent content. Harvesting this mass for its energy, and using this energy to power a photon drive,..
But the photons need to escape the EM Drive to get propulsion.  How are the photons getting out of the drive? Do you see the downstream surface to be porous to photons traveling through it?
Well, for the argument, that could also be a neutrino jet, or any light particle with more kinetic energy than rest mass. The photon with a 0 rest mass is just a limit case. Also this is getting convoluted : have to take incoming DM <500km/s, and convert mass content to kinetic energy of collimated ejected relativistic particles that are light enough (otherwise they are less relativistic, and thrust is worse) and wall crossing (neutrinos, X rays). Mmm, you could even do the following : take incoming DM <500km/s, convert mass to energy, and with the energy of 1 million DM particles, accelerate 1 DM particle at relativistic speed.

Would be dark matter powered dark matter jet rocket. Call that a "dark matter ramjet". Unless anyone can point me to previous publication or grant, I hereby take precedence on that concept  8)

All those numbers above that could hypothetically reach the thrust levels of experiments assume the possibility of not only harvesting a huge ratio of DM but also of "burning" DM mass to release energy. Dark matter fusion now, is it advanced enough concept ?

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1470 on: 10/05/2014 03:57 PM »
But the photons need to escape the EM Drive to get propulsion.  How are the photons getting out of the drive? Do you see the downstream surface to be porous to photons traveling through it?

Earlier I had mentioned that no mass was being expelled.  I incorrectly mentioned electrons, and someone pointed out that photons were being produced, AIUI.

Still, nothing comes out of the other end.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1471 on: 10/05/2014 03:58 PM »
.../...
In my job I mostly deal with electronic engineering. I know a lot about radars, communications (satellite mostly), and navigation equipment like gyros. Hence why I have a clue about waveguides ...
.../...

Sorry to skip the rest but, about that, do you know of any possible rectifier effect in dielectrics, that is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term ?

Quote
And I want a hovercar.

Yeah. So do I. But you know reality doesn't much care about making achievable all what we want ?


All the rectifiers I'm familiar with use diodes. You can do it old school with tubes.

Do  you agree "dielectric, is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term" ?

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1472 on: 10/05/2014 03:59 PM »
But the photons need to escape the EM Drive to get propulsion.  How are the photons getting out of the drive? Do you see the downstream surface to be porous to photons traveling through it?

Earlier I had mentioned that no mass was being expelled.  I incorrectly mentioned electrons, and someone pointed out that photons were being produced, AIUI.

Still, nothing comes out of the other end.

Well, weakly interacting dark mass should be able to come out

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1473 on: 10/05/2014 04:00 PM »
Propeller/slow wind : power of the device is used to accelerate DM particles.

I would like to read more about this approach.

Basically, pushing on a slow moving medium (relative to ship) is a good way to get high thrust/power ratio. In a dense medium, the ejection speed to get a given level of thrust (relative to the size of thruster) is low. For instance in air a propeller does a pretty decent thrust with ejection speeds around 100m/s (give or take). The higher the ejection speed, the higher the thrust but also lower efficiency. But still much better than photon rocket (ignoring medium and pushing on "pure energy" from the onboard generator).

Now with a very very scarce medium, the amount of mass/s that can be swallowed by the thruster is so weak that it takes very high ejection speeds to get a thrust level of any significance. When the scarcity of the medium implies relativistic ejection velocities to get interesting thrust, then the fact to use a medium mass at all becomes irrelevant because you put more energy as kinetic energy than the energy equivalence of harvested mass : if you have that much onboard energy to spend on kinetic energy of the jet, then just creating the rest mass (from energy) of what you are ejecting becomes a negligible term. You are almost as good with a photon rocket and ignoring the medium.

So that basically means that, given the scarcity of DM, it is worthless as a reaction mass. But it is better from its energy equivalent content. Harvesting this mass for its energy, and using this energy to power a photon drive, is the better achievable possible use of naturally occurring DM. This is not unlike a Bussard ramjet : treating the medium not as a passive reserve of mass to push on with onboard generator power, but converting a significant part of mass to energy and using this energy to power a fast jet.

And it falls short of explaining the results, unless you took all the most extremely favorable values together, sounds very unlikely to me. So the propeller/slow wind approach, being much worse, 3 orders of magnitude below, is clearly discarded.

You need something like a condensate to keep the density argument in the picture

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1474 on: 10/05/2014 04:01 PM »
So that basically means that, given the scarcity of DM, it is worthless as a reaction mass. But it is better from its energy equivalent content. Harvesting this mass for its energy, and using this energy to power a photon drive,..
But the photons need to escape the EM Drive to get propulsion.  How are the photons getting out of the drive? Do you see the downstream surface to be porous to photons traveling through it?
Well, for the argument, that could also be a neutrino jet, or any light particle with more kinetic energy than rest mass. The photon with a 0 rest mass is just a limit case. Also this is getting convoluted : have to take incoming DM <500km/s, and convert mass content to kinetic energy of collimated ejected relativistic particles that are light enough (otherwise they are less relativistic, and thrust is worse) and wall crossing (neutrinos, X rays). Mmm, you could even do the following : take incoming DM <500km/s, convert mass to energy, and with the energy of 1 million DM particles, accelerate 1 DM particle at relativistic speed.

Would be dark matter powered dark matter jet rocket. Call that a "dark matter ramjet". Unless anyone can point me to previous publication or grant, I hereby take precedence on that concept  8)

All those numbers above that could hypothetically reach the thrust levels of experiments assume the possibility of not only harvesting a huge ratio of DM but also of "burning" DM mass to release energy. Dark matter fusion now, is it advanced enough concept ?

Seems lately I've been working against emdrive by trying to shut down theories all over the place. I think I can rule out dark matter by virtue that if it exists, it ONLY interacts gravitationally. RF and WIMPS don't play together. So it would take mass fluctuations, or gravity waves, or antigravity to work with DM.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1475 on: 10/05/2014 04:02 PM »
Propeller/slow wind : power of the device is used to accelerate DM particles.

I would like to read more about this approach.

Basically, pushing on a slow moving medium (relative to ship) is a good way to get high thrust/power ratio. In a dense medium, the ejection speed to get a given level of thrust (relative to the size of thruster) is low. For instance in air a propeller does a pretty decent thrust with ejection speeds around 100m/s (give or take). The higher the ejection speed, the higher the thrust but also lower efficiency. ...

Thanks.

I was imagining a force field "propeller" about the diameter of the solar system, Pulling, say, a Dragon capsule.   That is, leveraging the rarity of the medium to get the thrust.

Too far out?

Allowing the capsule, diameter and power supply to exist for purposes of discussion.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 04:03 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1476 on: 10/05/2014 04:03 PM »
.../...
In my job I mostly deal with electronic engineering. I know a lot about radars, communications (satellite mostly), and navigation equipment like gyros. Hence why I have a clue about waveguides ...
.../...

Sorry to skip the rest but, about that, do you know of any possible rectifier effect in dielectrics, that is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term ?

Quote
And I want a hovercar.

Yeah. So do I. But you know reality doesn't much care about making achievable all what we want ?


All the rectifiers I'm familiar with use diodes. You can do it old school with tubes.

Do  you agree "dielectric, is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term" ?

That concept doesn't compute.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1477 on: 10/05/2014 04:04 PM »
.../...
In my job I mostly deal with electronic engineering. I know a lot about radars, communications (satellite mostly), and navigation equipment like gyros. Hence why I have a clue about waveguides ...
.../...

Sorry to skip the rest but, about that, do you know of any possible rectifier effect in dielectrics, that is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term ?

Quote
And I want a hovercar.

Yeah. So do I. But you know reality doesn't much care about making achievable all what we want ?


All the rectifiers I'm familiar with use diodes. You can do it old school with tubes.

Do  you agree "dielectric, is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term" ?

It's the same problem as axion detection in reverse.  You need the right combination of field, phase and photons.

Edit: Now that I think of it, it might be that pulling axions OUT of a condensate is what could give rise to a reaction force.  Got to think about that one.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 04:17 PM by Notsosureofit »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1478 on: 10/05/2014 04:20 PM »
.../...
In my job I mostly deal with electronic engineering. I know a lot about radars, communications (satellite mostly), and navigation equipment like gyros. Hence why I have a clue about waveguides ...
.../...

Sorry to skip the rest but, about that, do you know of any possible rectifier effect in dielectrics, that is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term ?

Quote
And I want a hovercar.

Yeah. So do I. But you know reality doesn't much care about making achievable all what we want ?


All the rectifiers I'm familiar with use diodes. You can do it old school with tubes.

Do  you agree "dielectric, is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term" ?

It's the same problem as axion detection in reverse.  You need the right combination of field, phase and photons.

Ok you can use a RC network as a filter (which is done after you go through a half or full wave rectifier normally) to filter out all but the "tops" of the ac sine wave. You would end up with a dc with a LOT of ripple.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1479 on: 10/05/2014 04:21 PM »
.../...
In my job I mostly deal with electronic engineering. I know a lot about radars, communications (satellite mostly), and navigation equipment like gyros. Hence why I have a clue about waveguides ...
.../...

Sorry to skip the rest but, about that, do you know of any possible rectifier effect in dielectrics, that is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term ?

Quote
And I want a hovercar.

Yeah. So do I. But you know reality doesn't much care about making achievable all what we want ?


All the rectifiers I'm familiar with use diodes. You can do it old school with tubes.

Do  you agree "dielectric, is acting like a fast switching diode to convert (a fraction of) AC RF energy to a significant DC current term" ?

It's the same problem as axion detection in reverse.  You need the right combination of field, phase and photons.

Ok you can use a RC network as a filter (which is done after you go through a half or full wave rectifier normally) to filter out all but the "tops" of the ac sine wave. You would end up with a dc with a LOT of ripple.
There is a fair amount of "ripple" in the measured response

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