Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 765899 times)

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1360 on: 10/04/2014 01:42 AM »
Given what I've researched today (linked to earlier) I'm predicting it is easier to accelerate a conductive cone (pointy end first) than a sphere under very high energy conditions and acceleration. I think that under normal every day conditions the effect would be insignificant. Both internal and external boundary conditions are important to emdrive. Seems logical to me that the Nasa test article would produce more thrust while rotated pointy end up than down due to acceleration of gravity, barely. I need help formalizing this. Prove me wrong.
An interesting test:

The NASA Eagleworks tests showed that with the PTFE ("Teflon") dielectric resonator removed there was NO measurable thrust. 

Can you predict that removing the dielectric resonator will result in no measurable thrust?




Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1361 on: 10/04/2014 01:44 AM »
Already did. In earlier post. I suggested PVDF is better.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 01:46 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1362 on: 10/04/2014 01:48 AM »
Given what I've researched today (linked to earlier) I'm predicting it is easier to accelerate a conductive cone (pointy end first) than a sphere under very high energy conditions and acceleration. I think that under normal every day conditions the effect would be insignificant. Both internal and external boundary conditions are important to emdrive. Seems logical to me that the Nasa test article would produce more thrust while rotated pointy end up than down due to acceleration of gravity, barely. I need help formalizing this. Prove me wrong.

Another test:

the Cannae drive is shaped like a pillbox (see picture).  It is symmetric except for the dielectric resonator being installed in the long pipe side.

Can you predict thrust for the Cannae drive?


Offline Rodal

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Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1364 on: 10/04/2014 01:56 AM »
Given what I've researched today (linked to earlier) I'm predicting it is easier to accelerate a conductive cone (pointy end first) than a sphere under very high energy conditions and acceleration. I think that under normal every day conditions the effect would be insignificant. Both internal and external boundary conditions are important to emdrive. Seems logical to me that the Nasa test article would produce more thrust while rotated pointy end up than down due to acceleration of gravity, barely. I need help formalizing this. Prove me wrong.

Another test:

the Cannae drive is shaped like a pillbox (see picture).  It is symmetric except for the dielectric resonator being installed in the long pipe side.

Can you predict thrust for the Cannae drive?

I don't think I said this here, but I marked up the Nasa paper with a line showing where to lop off the bell because it makes no difference. Just the tube with dielectric in it. Those are the only active useful parts. The area where the tube meets the bell is tapered like a very short cone too.

edit, er bell I mean pillbox.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 01:57 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1365 on: 10/04/2014 02:02 AM »
Already did. In earlier post. I suggested PVDF is better.
Here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.msg1243723#msg1243723

and here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.msg1243735#msg1243735

You mean

Polyvinylidene difluoride (it is yet another thermoplastic fluoropolymer).

Why do you like it? Because of its high piezoelectric effect compared to PTFE ?  It has a negative d33 value (it will compress instead of expand when exposed to an electric field). It is anisotropic (crystalline)

Or because of its heat resistance? Or something else?

Is there a phase you prefer? alpha , beta , or gamma phases ?
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 02:09 AM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1366 on: 10/04/2014 02:18 AM »
Already did. In earlier post. I suggested PVDF is better.
Here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.msg1243723#msg1243723

and here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.msg1243735#msg1243735

You mean

Polyvinylidene difluoride (it is yet another thermoplastic fluoropolymer).

Why do you like it? Because of its high piezoelectric effect compared to PTFE ?  It has a negative d33 value (it will compress instead of expand when exposed to an electric field). It is anisotropic (crystalline)

Or because of its heat resistance? Or something else?

Is there a phase you prefer? alpha , beta , or gamma phases ?

I was wanting to use large 1x2 meter sheets layered together to store energy for electric cars or something. I abandoned it when I learned that it has a low Curie temperature. But it is highly polarizable and ferroelectric. I was also trying to tie it in with Abraham-Minkowski.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1367 on: 10/04/2014 02:22 AM »
Given what I've researched today (linked to earlier) I'm predicting it is easier to accelerate a conductive cone (pointy end first) than a sphere under very high energy conditions and acceleration. I think that under normal every day conditions the effect would be insignificant. Both internal and external boundary conditions are important to emdrive. Seems logical to me that the Nasa test article would produce more thrust while rotated pointy end up than down due to acceleration of gravity, barely. I need help formalizing this. Prove me wrong.

Another test:

the Cannae drive is shaped like a pillbox (see picture).  It is symmetric except for the dielectric resonator being installed in the long pipe side.

Can you predict thrust for the Cannae drive?

Here:

Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1368 on: 10/04/2014 02:28 AM »
Already did. In earlier post. I suggested PVDF is better.
Here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.msg1243723#msg1243723

and here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.msg1243735#msg1243735

You mean

Polyvinylidene difluoride (it is yet another thermoplastic fluoropolymer).

Why do you like it? Because of its high piezoelectric effect compared to PTFE ?  It has a negative d33 value (it will compress instead of expand when exposed to an electric field). It is anisotropic (crystalline)

Or because of its heat resistance? Or something else?

Is there a phase you prefer? alpha , beta , or gamma phases ?

I was wanting to use large 1x2 meter sheets layered together to store energy for electric cars or something. I abandoned it when I learned that it has a low Curie temperature. But it is highly polarizable and ferroelectric. I was also trying to tie it in with Abraham-Minkowski.
1) What do you make of the comment from the AviationWeek/etc. reporter that said he had an e-mail from Shawyer saying that Shawyer doesn't use any dielectric?  (Shawyer started with ferrites, then switched to dielectric polymers, now he says he removed them, not clear whether he has nothing or went back to ferrites)

2) Since the action is taking place in the dielectric, do you think it would be better to have a waveguide with dielectric resonators spaced like in this picture? [hint: if one clicks on the picture it gets larger and one can see more detail]
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 02:29 AM by Rodal »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1369 on: 10/04/2014 02:40 AM »
Interesting, but how about energy from other universes?

I'm far too frustrated by having had an actual Stolichnaya martini tonite, thanks to Elizabeth, my mixoligist. who drinks these things, anyhow?

Bottom line.   Forget about "other universes".

And what the heck does Rodal see in martinis?  Probably he's totally wrong in his math as well.  Solo dicendo.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 01:33 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1370 on: 10/04/2014 02:46 AM »
Well early on I was trying to explain it all away as a momentum transfer from photons to the cavity via the dielectric (Abraham-Minkowski) which may be part of it, or at least at these low energies, most of it. For the life of me I couldn't think of a way to transfer any momentum to the QV and I had a lot of even crazier ideas early on with a bunch of Unruh this or that in it. But I always maintained that the dielectric was essential until yesterday pretty much when I discovered the work of Dr Mike McCulloch. I was grabbing at a bunch of ideas until the casimir stuff became clearer to me. I think the dielectric in the waveguide would do best at half wave intervals. Since the test article was a cone, transverse waves go along a radius not around if I remember right, so the pic can't help us. Probably screwed that up but the jist is in circular waveguides you have TEM vectors, square/rectangular just TE.

I have very low confidence we'll ever have the technology to achieve the kind of energies and accelerations necessary to make this thing useful. It may appear plausible but not practical. Maybe we'd be better off using sound instead of rf and use a sound room to create boundaries. Either that and shrink down the cavities, cluster them in a wafer, cap them, and pump very high ghz or thz frequencies into them.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 02:58 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1371 on: 10/04/2014 02:55 AM »
Gravitation hasn't been shown to communicate outside its local spacetime curvature or even proven it is field theoretic. No gravity waves. Einstein said it was local curvature in spacetime. No ripples to communicate via in spacetime have been found. Find one gravity wave and gravitational Inertia will work. Even non locally across the cosmos because phase velocities are superluminal. Gravity is a how not a why. I'm surprised Feynman invented mathematical time travel to shoehorn that view of Inertia. This is fun.

Also wmap has shown a lumpy cosmos with a dipole anisotropy. Here at home we are dominated by the mass of a planet moon and star and a supermassive blackhole, none of which contribute to any inertial dipole moments.

I invited him. I hope he gets over here. His credentials and willingness to communicate leveraging the Internet are awesome.

He also went through the trouble to answer a question posed on his paper at stackexchange:  http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/54313/does-unruh-radiation-replace-the-cosmic-horizon-radiation/54447#54447

That's a positive sign.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1372 on: 10/04/2014 03:35 AM »
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 03:37 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline frobnicat

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1373 on: 10/04/2014 10:01 AM »
...Getting unlimited energy source by just radiating away tons of negative mass as debt never to be paid. This is brilliant ! That should easily find some financial backer.
Or another way to show to people that negative mass is not likely to exist in reality.

We can still enjoy it virtually in science-fiction plots  :)

Or that it may exist but can't be put at work in a rigid arrangement relative to positive mass (like in a diametric drive) because it would be space-like trajectories while positive mass is always time-like ? Aren't negative mass what is called tachyons and always moving >c, or am I mixing two different concepts ?
Mmm, that could allow for the existence of negative mass but preventing divergent instabilities (forever chasing...) since both couldn't interfere for long time...
Not sure this is a definitive answer also, maybe we could still devise how two streams of periodic lumps of positive/negative mass could still forever interfere even if one is <c and the other >c. A circular stream of tachyons... my brain hurts, any contradictions with causality ?

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1374 on: 10/04/2014 11:53 AM »
Silly question and may sound of topic but I assure you it is relevant. Are causality and information conjugate variable pairs?
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1375 on: 10/04/2014 11:56 AM »
...Getting unlimited energy source by just radiating away tons of negative mass as debt never to be paid. This is brilliant ! That should easily find some financial backer.
Or another way to show to people that negative mass is not likely to exist in reality.

We can still enjoy it virtually in science-fiction plots  :)

 Aren't negative mass what is called tachyons and always moving >c, or am I mixing two different concepts ?
Mmm, that could allow for the existence of negative mass but preventing divergent instabilities (forever chasing...) since both couldn't interfere for long time...


Different types of masses.  The rest mass of a tachyon (if it exists  :)   ) must be imaginary, because the denominator of E = m c^2 /Sqrt[1 - (v/c)^2],  (square root of one minus the square ratio of the velocity divided by c) is imaginary because it is traveling faster than light and the square root of a negative number is imaginary.  In order for the energy of the tachyon to be real, the rest mass must be imaginary so that when the (imaginary) rest mass  is divided by the (imaginary) denominator, "i" cancels out and the energy becomes a real number.

So you have:

Positive Mass (the mass we know exists, this includes antimatter and dark matter)

Negative Mass (science fiction mass for stabilizing wormholes)

Imaginary Mass  (science fiction mass for faster than light travel)

People going to Mass (reality or fiction ?)   ;)
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 12:10 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1376 on: 10/04/2014 12:14 PM »
Silly question and may sound of topic but I assure you it is relevant. Are causality and information conjugate variable pairs?
They are very  much related as I think you know.  Time travel to the past poses great paradoxes both with causality (killing your grandfather paradox) and information (sending present information to the past).  Also both causality and information can be expressed in terms of entropy of course.

And the reason you asked is ?................
« Last Edit: 10/04/2014 12:15 PM by Rodal »

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1377 on: 10/04/2014 12:16 PM »
Took a while to find this again.
http://www.gregegan.net/SCIENCE/Cavity/Cavity.html

VERY nice and exhaustively done !  Have you seen the same sort of thing for dielectric resonators ?

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1378 on: 10/04/2014 12:24 PM »
Silly question and may sound of topic but I assure you it is relevant. Are causality and information conjugate variable pairs?
They are very  much related as I think you know.  Time travel to the past poses great paradoxes both with causality (killing your grandfather paradox) and information (sending present information to the past).  Also both causality and information can be expressed in terms of entropy of course.

And the reason you asked is ?................

Rindler horizons. I'm trying to figure it out and prove it wrong. I'm torn if causality and information are really conjugate variable pairs in the spirit of symmetry in Noether's theorem/or are they thermodynamic. The internet isn't helping me much.

This problem is related to a whole other obsession I had since I learned about "A new kind of Science" where I was trying to make sense of information and computation giving rise to the universe. My head hurts. Information/Matter/Energy keep coming back to haunt me and I'm certain they are unified and conserved together somehow. Like how and gates run hotter than or gates. These ideas come full circle.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1379 on: 10/04/2014 12:35 PM »
Took a while to find this again.
http://www.gregegan.net/SCIENCE/Cavity/Cavity.html

VERY nice and exhaustively done !  Have you seen the same sort of thing for dielectric resonators ?

There is a huge volume of information concerning Abraham Minkowski momentum and I've found it all to be contradictory and not helpful. They just gotta measure it and see.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

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