Author Topic: Roscosmos' part in the ExoMars program  (Read 3810 times)

Offline Moe Grills

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Roscosmos' part in the ExoMars program
« on: 04/06/2012 06:20 PM »
   Roscosmos and the ESA have apparently come to an agreement
on the ExoMars project.
 
Ignoring the ESA portion of the mission, I want to focus on possible
Russian/Ukrainian proposed contributions.

Will the booster be a Proton, since NASA is apparently opting out?

Will Roscosmos be called upon to make the ECM lander? or the 2018 rover?
« Last Edit: 04/10/2012 10:47 AM by anik »

Offline aga

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a few things from an esa document:
- yes, proton will be the booster
- russian rtg for the lander
- 2 new instruments for the orbiter (sorry, very hard for me to translate - something about atmosphere and then a neutron detector)
- for the lander: radioisotope heater unit and a camera, lidar, spectrometer, neutron spectrometer and some more (really hard for me to translate - i dont actually understand the instruments' names even in czech/slovak)...
- 2018 mission under discussion (russia could contribute with rhu for the rover, some instruments, a proton booster)
« Last Edit: 04/06/2012 08:27 PM by aga »
42

Offline Moe Grills

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   Thanks. Cpaceeba.
   :)

Offline GClark

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What upper stg?  Blok DM 03?

Also, are they still considering attempting to fly the MS landers or MMS penetrators?

Online Phillip Clark

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Can ESA claim damages against the United States for withdrawing from the programme and thus causing the costs of mission redesign and search for a replacement launch vehicle?

Offline Bob Shaw

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I suspect the damages will be reputational rather than financial.

How many times has the US left ESA at the altar now?

Offline Prober

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Can ESA claim damages against the United States for withdrawing from the programme and thus causing the costs of mission redesign and search for a replacement launch vehicle?

now let's all be friendly.

Be nice and maybe the US will let you have a seat on the 2nd round to Mars, or maybe you prefer Red Dragon?
« Last Edit: 04/07/2012 09:05 PM by Prober »
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Online simonbp

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Can ESA claim damages against the United States for withdrawing from the programme and thus causing the costs of mission redesign and search for a replacement launch vehicle?

Nope. No contract signed.

And can the USA claim damages for all the extra costs that launching JWST on Ariane 5 has incurred? That's a large factor in the overruns that JWST has had, and accounting for those overruns is why the planetary budget has been raided. ESA is no faultless virgin in all this...

Offline Moe Grills

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   To get this thread back on topic, if Roscosmos succeeds
in fulfilling their part of the mission, providing and successfully launching  the Proton booster(s), and providing reliable components for the Mars mission, it should go a long way to restoring the battered Morale of Russian
scientists and engineers after the Fobos-Grunt fiasco.

Online anik

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Re: Roscosmos' part in the ExoMars program
« Reply #9 on: 04/10/2012 11:04 AM »
2016

Russia's part
confirmed: Proton-M rocket

TGO

Russia's part
confirmed: ACS (three spectrometers and system of data collection; atmospheric gases, volcano activity and light emission; possible Canadian part for aerosols study); FREND (neutron spectrometer; water study; based on LEND).

EDM

Russia's part
confirmed: RTG
unconfirmed: PanCam, Adron (neutron spectrometer), Lidar, MicroMed

2018

confirmed: Proton-M rocket

Rover

Russia's part
confirmed: RTG
unconfirmed: MIR (Mast Infrared Spectrometer), Adron (neutron spectrometer)

Lander

Russia's part
unconfirmed: science instruments
« Last Edit: 04/10/2012 11:11 AM by anik »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Roscosmos' part in the ExoMars program
« Reply #10 on: 06/14/2012 06:18 AM »
http://ria.ru/science/20120608/668618054.html

This says there may be an agreement on EXOMars in November.

Offline bolun

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Re: Roscosmos' part in the ExoMars program
« Reply #11 on: 10/04/2012 04:22 PM »
Russian Export Rules Force Changes to 2016 ExoMars Mission

http://www.spacenews.com/civil/121004-russian-export-exomars.html

Quote
Russian export control procedures made it impossible for Europe’s ExoMars mission in 2016 to employ a Russian nuclear heater that would have permitted the ExoMars lander to operate for two years on the martian surface, the ExoMars prime contractor said Oct. 3.

Instead of functioning as a ground-based weather monitor for a full martian year, the European-built lander will be limited to providing data as it parachutes to the Mars surface and then for around four martian days —eight Earth days — until its batteries deplete.

Quote
Vincenzo Giorgio, ExoMars project manager at Thales Alenia Space, said Russian authorities had signaled their willingness to provide the RTG for the 2016 mission pending final approval from Russia’s technology export authorities.

Giorgio said the European team already had redesigned the 2016 mission to protect the orbiter from the RTG-produced heat during flight. But Russian authorities subsequently informed the ExoMars team that final authorization would not arrive before next February — too late to meet the ExoMars 2016 schedule.

Giorgio agreed with Saggese that removing the RTG does help the 2016 mission keep to its schedule, but said the cost in terms of lost scientific return is high.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2012 09:36 AM by bolun »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Roscosmos' part in the ExoMars program
« Reply #12 on: 10/05/2012 06:38 AM »
Four Martian days is about four Earth days. ExoMars consists of an Orbiter and Entry, Descent and Landing Demonstrator Module (EDM). This will land and then use batteries for its limited science experiments.

http://exploration.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=46124

I would have thought that adding some solar panels would extend the life of the experiments.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2012 06:41 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline woods170

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Re: Roscosmos' part in the ExoMars program
« Reply #13 on: 10/19/2012 07:57 AM »
The post below comes from a less appropriate thread.

I think ExoMars proved exactly the opposite. There's been no consequences.


No consequences that are immediately obvious the general public...yet.

If there's been consequences, name them. If you can't, there hasn't been any.
There have  been a number of consequences of NASA largely pulling out of ExoMars. They consist of changes to the design of the ExoMars mission and hardware, resulting in funding issues that now hold a real chance of cancellation of ExoMars coming November in the ESA ministerial conference. There are also consequences for the science being performed and even for the level of availability of the science results from the mission.
With NASA pulling out and no longer providing the launcher and other assets, the ExoMars programme could only survive with either a significant increase in ESA-provided budget (not very likely to happen with all the financial trouble going on in Europe), OR, get another partner on-board. That other partner became Russia, providing Proton launchers, requiring re-design of ExoMars hardware to fit inside the smaller payload-envelope of the Proton and re-design to work with the other flight hardware now provided by Russia.
So yes, there was significant consequences of NASA pulling out. The most severe could play out coming November. Despite Russia stepping in to replace NASA the ExoMars programme will still require a significant increase in spending from ESA member states (in increase in the order of 200 million Euros). It remains to be seen whether the ESA ministers are willing to spend that additional amount of money. They might, because they now have obligations to Russia. OR, they might choose not to provide the additional funds and the mission will be cancelled. If and when that scenario plays out it will be ironic to see ESA walk the sime line NASA did.
« Last Edit: 10/19/2012 10:50 AM by woods170 »

Offline Star One

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Re: Roscosmos' part in the ExoMars program
« Reply #14 on: 10/20/2012 07:36 PM »
The post below comes from a less appropriate thread.

I think ExoMars proved exactly the opposite. There's been no consequences.


No consequences that are immediately obvious the general public...yet.

If there's been consequences, name them. If you can't, there hasn't been any.
There have  been a number of consequences of NASA largely pulling out of ExoMars. They consist of changes to the design of the ExoMars mission and hardware, resulting in funding issues that now hold a real chance of cancellation of ExoMars coming November in the ESA ministerial conference. There are also consequences for the science being performed and even for the level of availability of the science results from the mission.
With NASA pulling out and no longer providing the launcher and other assets, the ExoMars programme could only survive with either a significant increase in ESA-provided budget (not very likely to happen with all the financial trouble going on in Europe), OR, get another partner on-board. That other partner became Russia, providing Proton launchers, requiring re-design of ExoMars hardware to fit inside the smaller payload-envelope of the Proton and re-design to work with the other flight hardware now provided by Russia.
So yes, there was significant consequences of NASA pulling out. The most severe could play out coming November. Despite Russia stepping in to replace NASA the ExoMars programme will still require a significant increase in spending from ESA member states (in increase in the order of 200 million Euros). It remains to be seen whether the ESA ministers are willing to spend that additional amount of money. They might, because they now have obligations to Russia. OR, they might choose not to provide the additional funds and the mission will be cancelled. If and when that scenario plays out it will be ironic to see ESA walk the sime line NASA did.

From the circumstances you are outlining, especially in regards to funding in the current European climate, make it sound like it is more likely to be cancelled than anything else.

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