ESA, China Discuss Shenzhou Docking At ISS

[QuantumG]

Or: "China will overtake the US to become the world's largest economy by 2020, which in turn will be overtaken by India in 2050."

Or: "Linear extrapolation is awesome. We'll never stop using it! Malthusian what now? "

[HappyMartian]

Or: "China will overtake the US to become the world's largest economy by 2020, which in turn will be overtaken by India in 2050."

Or: "Linear extrapolation is awesome. We'll never stop using it! Malthusian what now? "

You are doing better QuantumG. "Linear extrapolation is awesome" is nonsense. 

[Garrett]

I see this talk of ESA-China cooperation as a simple knowledge-exchange program in the short term. I would doubt that there will be any taikonauts on an ESA vessel, or European astronauts on a Chinese vessel, in the next ten years.

If we were to assume some possibility of joint manned missions, say in 15 years time, then to me it makes sense to have discussions now. For example, if in the year 2025 it became acceptable to all ISS partners (including the US) for a Chinese vessel to dock to the station, then that Chinese vessel would still need to be compatible with ISS docking requirements. I would presume that if China were aware today of what some of those requirements are, then it would facilitate, from an engineering perspective, long term docking scenarios?

[Bob Shaw]

There's something that China *could* do for the ISS - a unique selling point if ever there was one...

...it could dock a vehicle at a US port in order to perform attitude control and EOL de-orbit. There's nothing else out there able to actually perform a whole docking sequence at the US end (not a berthing, a docking - no station arm required). Not only that, they can do it unmanned.

By the time ISS *has* to go for a swim the Chinese plan to have their own Mir-class station, the assembly of which will require unmanned space tugs/station modules and optionally robotic manned vehicles. Their current docking-system is almost-but-not-quite ISS compliant, and if the world was a sensible place would indeed be compatible with the ISS when it is finally used on a regular basis.

China genuinely has something to bring to the table. 

[manboy]

There's something that China *could* do for the ISS - a unique selling point if ever there was one...

...it could dock a vehicle at a US port in order to perform attitude control and EOL de-orbit. There's nothing else out there able to actually perform a whole docking sequence at the US end (not a berthing, a docking - no station arm required). Not only that, they can do it unmanned.

By the time ISS *has* to go for a swim the Chinese plan to have their own Mir-class station, the assembly of which will require unmanned space tugs/station modules and optionally robotic manned vehicles. Their current docking-system is almost-but-not-quite ISS compliant, and if the world was a sensible place would indeed be compatible with the ISS when it is finally used on a regular basis.

China genuinely has something to bring to the table. 

There are no Kurs-like antennas on USOS which Shenzhou requires to dock unmanned. The Chinese docking mechanism is very similar to APAS-89/95, all open APAS mechanisms on ISS will be converted to the non-compatible NASA Docking System (NDS) around 2015.

Even if the Chinese had a vehicle that could de-orbit the ISS, Congress (and rightfully so) would never allow it.

[Ronsmytheiii]

"these folks" don't matter, US says no.

The world changes and so do American policies. And you are wrong Jim, "these folks" represent other folks that NASA is trying to reach out to. You know, 'winning the hearts and minds' sort of thing. Think what you will Jim. Have a lovely day.

Cheers!

There's actually a very simple answer: money & power.

The Russians just showed their hands, saying "...their doors are wide open". They don't need China for technology. In fact they don't really 'need' them at all, if they so wanted. The basic fact is that if you can't (afford to) do Human Space Flight by yourself, you need a partner with financial backing that can. China has shown it has taken some necessary steps to be a player, which is important because it sets the stage of their level of commitment.

The Russians & Europeans (as a whole, and more specifically) are in need of the financial resources from other to go to Mars (which is the destination we are all talking about, it really is a race it seems). ESA obviously cannot show their people that they are spending Billions on a space program which many would consider a waste considering the hardships felt all around (and the debt levels many are burdened with).

And then the United States, not willing to show its hand so blatenly, that they are unwilling to show a desperate lack of funds for a mission to Mars at this time.

So by involving China at this stage, by allowing admission to the ISS at this late stage, it is a matter of appeasement to smooth the waters, welcome their money (for the future missions) and make it all seem, as Jim points out with his 'Kumbaya' comment (fairly accurately, imo), and declare all is well with the nations of the world.

The ISS partner nations have do the hardest part: they got the thing built & it works. Now they just need (a good slap in the face) to wake up and just do the small things necessary at this stage to make good use out of it. It's so silly, honestly.

Robert, how will involving China help anyone go to Mars? They only have a LEO transport right now, The closest they have been was a carryon with Phobos-Grunt. China is not going to fund a European/Russian Mars effort, and the US is still committed to a joint Mars program, just might not be ExoMars.

If you truly want to see what the US fears by working with China, look up Intelsat 708. They tried before with commercial launches, and were burnt pretty badly.

[Jim]

That one brought a big smile on my face. But ah, Happy Martian, you best stop trying to convince Jim. Ain't gonna happen.

Yes, unfortunately there are still a lot of old-school Cold-Warriors about.

It is not my feelings about China, I just understand the US position and reality and it isn't the old-school Cold-Warriors.

[Jim]

There's nothing else out there able to actually perform a whole docking sequence at the US end .....

snip

By the time ISS *has* to go for a swim ......

By the time the ISS has to go for a swim, the US will have the capability

[Jim]

And if we do get another global conflict, America will be on the loser side.

Unsubstantiated and irrelevant.

[HappyMartian]

....
They tried before with commercial launches, and were burnt pretty badly.

If it was important to try it once, it may be important to try it twice, thrice, or as many times as it takes to get it right. Quietly discussing and extensively planning for what needs to happen for a positive outcome can increase the likelyhood of success.

Lots of really big ugly things happened during the Cold War and a whole lot of good people were killed, yet we nonetheless went out and carefully planned and successfully flew the the Apollo Soyuz Test Project
mission in July 1975.

"Apollo Soyuz Goals
Apollo Soyuz was the first international manned spaceflight. It was designed to test the compatibility of rendezvous and docking systems for American and Soviet spacecraft, to open the way for international space rescue as well as future joint manned flights."
From: http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/history/astp/astp-goals.htm


"Planning the mission required years of exchanging information and working together to overcome language barriers and the hurdle of two different measuring systems. Russia uses the metric system and Americans use inches and feet."

And, "Those years left a legacy of brotherhood between scientists, pilots and engineers who found that, despite official propaganda, they liked each other, said Leonov."

And, "'Remember that time — the insane mistrust, not just for people, but between countries," said Leonov. "We discovered kind, good, smart people, who decided to show all of humanity that we are completely different."
From: Apollo-Soyuz Mission 25 Years Later By Claire Moore
At: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=120107&page=1


"NASA administrator Charles Bolden pointed out that the five partners are reaching out to other non-traditional nations.

'We have encouraged each other to go out and try to find people who would not have an opportunity to enjoy this incredible facility that we have and bring them in as best we can,' he said."

From: Some space station partners appear ready to welcome China into the group  At: http://www.globalmontreal.com/canada/some+space+station+partners+appear+ready+to+welcome+china+into+the+group/6442592395/story.html


Now do we want to try to "bring them in as best we can" or should we try to start a new Cold War? Do you want to go to the Moon, NEOs, Mars, and Ceres? Do you really want a fully utilized International Space Station? Do you ever worry about the Fermi paradox or wandering NEOs and planets?

The ISS is where some of our common space research and other work can occur and be shown to the world on live high-definition TV and Internet video shows. But the careful and extensive discussions, politics, planning, building, and mission control coordination activities will happen here on Earth.

Welcome to the Spaceship Earth. Be polite to your crewmates. Folks around the world might be watching you. 


Cheers! 

 

[robertross]

Robert, how will involving China help anyone go to Mars?

money: they have it, and will always have it so long as we keep giving ours to them

[Jim]

Welcome to the Spaceship Earth. Be polite to your crewmates. Folks around the world might be watching you. 

Get real and awake up to some reality.   It not going to happen for quite some time

[Danderman]

Robert, how will involving China help anyone go to Mars?

money: they have it, and will always have it so long as we keep giving ours to them

There is no question that China has some money. The question is whether that money would be used to greatly accelerate the current China space program. Chinese plans that have been publicly released indicate a slowly ramping up program. To speculate that there would be activities over and above what has been released is pointless without provision of new supporting data.

[Cog_in_the_machine]

Welcome to the Spaceship Earth. Be polite to your crewmates. Folks around the world might be watching you. 

Get real and awake up to some reality.

I like the cut of your jib Jim.

[A_M_Swallow]

Robert, how will involving China help anyone go to Mars?

money: they have it, and will always have it so long as we keep giving ours to them

Currently yes but China does not have a monopoly on low cost manufacturing.  The governments of India and Brazil want the money and jobs to come to their countries.  Deliberately creating poverty has gone out of fashion.