|
HappyMartian
|
|
« Reply #15 on: 03/31/2012 05:23 AM » |
|
Talking is a start. Perhaps there is "good reason" to believe that this currrent US policy is also going to change.
The only ones talking are Europe and China. The positions of both US parties has been consistent on this issue, nothing is going to change.
Some space station partners appear ready to welcome China into the groupPeter Rakobowchuk, Thursday, March 01, 2012 "'We are not a closed club, our doors are wide open,' Vladimir Popovkin, the head of the Russian Space agency, said after a meeting Thursday of the leaders of the organizations involved in the station." And, "Jean-Jacques Dordain, head of the European body, said he hopes the International Space Station partnership would be open, adding it would benefit from co-operation with China." And, ""I am in favour of seeing how we can work together with China," he told reporters after the meeting in Quebec City. "It will take some steps, but it will come, I am sure. And, "This is not a closed partnership, it is an open partnership and anyone who can help support this partnership is more than welcome." From: http://www.globalmontreal.com/canada/some+space+station+partners+appear+ready+to+welcome+china+into+the+group/6442592395/story.htmlRonsmytheiii, perhaps you know a lot more about international space politics than these folks, but maybe you don't. 
|
|
|
|
PeterAlt
|
|
« Reply #16 on: 03/31/2012 08:28 AM » |
|
Jim, I've done plenty of research on the subject and have followed the space station program since the 80's.
I was referring to something I read not too long ago that said NASA monitors all objects that orbit within the proximity of the station very closely. They do this as a safety measure to protect the crew from any and all possible risks of collisions.
If the Chinese were to fly in close proximity to ISS, NASA will be forced to monitor this activity very carefully (as it would for any object orbiting near the proximity of the outpost), and, thus, involving the agency. The level of involvement may vary from simple observer (powerless to advise safety proceedures, etc.) to active participant (the safer option). The second option is safer because NASA could use agency owned hardware to assist with the mission, in addition to giving expert experienced advise, if needed. Knowing safety is priority #1, NASA (IMHO) will choose the safer option, reluctantly, because just standing by without direct involvement while a spacecraft not under the control of ISS partner agencies is within harms way of the station is not an option.
|
|
|
|
Jim
|
|
« Reply #17 on: 03/31/2012 08:57 AM » |
|
Jim, I've done plenty of research on the subject and have followed the space station program since the 80's.
snip
If the Chinese were to fly in close proximity to ISS,.....
Can't tell that from the questions you post, because your premise is wrong. The Chinese are not going to do this. It would be the equivalent of parking in someone's driveway without permission. They and anybody else who is not involved in the ISS is not going to do this. So, NASA is not going to be involved.
|
|
|
|
Jim
|
|
« Reply #18 on: 03/31/2012 09:02 AM » |
|
Talking is a start. Perhaps there is "good reason" to believe that this currrent US policy is also going to change.
The only ones talking are Europe and China. The positions of both US parties has been consistent on this issue, nothing is going to change.
Some space station partners appear ready to welcome China into the group
Peter Rakobowchuk, Thursday, March 01, 2012
"'We are not a closed club, our doors are wide open,' Vladimir Popovkin, the head of the Russian Space agency, said after a meeting Thursday of the leaders of the organizations involved in the station."
And, "Jean-Jacques Dordain, head of the European body, said he hopes the International Space Station partnership would be open, adding it would benefit from co-operation with China."
And, ""I am in favour of seeing how we can work together with China," he told reporters after the meeting in Quebec City. "It will take some steps, but it will come, I am sure.
And, "This is not a closed partnership, it is an open partnership and anyone who can help support this partnership is more than welcome."
From: http://www.globalmontreal.com/canada/some+space+station+partners+appear+ready+to+welcome+china+into+the+group/6442592395/story.html
Ronsmytheiii, perhaps you know a lot more about international space politics than these folks, but maybe you don't.
"these folks" don't matter, US says no.
|
|
|
|
HappyMartian
|
|
« Reply #19 on: 03/31/2012 11:06 AM » |
|
"these folks" don't matter, US says no.
The world changes and so do American policies. And you are wrong Jim, "these folks" represent other folks that NASA is trying to reach out to. You know, 'winning the hearts and minds' sort of thing. Think what you will Jim. Have a lovely day. Cheers!
|
|
|
|
JazzFan
|
|
« Reply #20 on: 03/31/2012 02:36 PM » |
|
"these folks" don't matter, US says no.
The world changes and so do American policies. And you are wrong Jim, "these folks" represent other folks that NASA is trying to reach out to. You know, 'winning the hearts and minds' sort of thing. Think what you will Jim. Have a lovely day.
Cheers!
I'm not too sure about those hearts and minds, but if they do not have budget dollars and a significant contribution, then Jim is right.
|
|
|
|
Jim
|
|
« Reply #21 on: 03/31/2012 02:41 PM » |
|
"these folks" don't matter, US says no.
The world changes and so do American policies. And you are wrong Jim, "these folks" represent other folks that NASA is trying to reach out to. You know, 'winning the hearts and minds' sort of thing. Think what you will Jim. Have a lovely day.
Yep, and we all sit in a circle holding hands singing Kumbaya, after which ponies and unicorns will passed out.
|
|
|
|
robertross
|
|
« Reply #22 on: 03/31/2012 03:01 PM » |
|
"these folks" don't matter, US says no.
The world changes and so do American policies. And you are wrong Jim, "these folks" represent other folks that NASA is trying to reach out to. You know, 'winning the hearts and minds' sort of thing. Think what you will Jim. Have a lovely day.
Cheers!
There's actually a very simple answer: money & power. The Russians just showed their hands, saying "...their doors are wide open". They don't need China for technology. In fact they don't really 'need' them at all, if they so wanted. The basic fact is that if you can't (afford to) do Human Space Flight by yourself, you need a partner with financial backing that can. China has shown it has taken some necessary steps to be a player, which is important because it sets the stage of their level of commitment. The Russians & Europeans (as a whole, and more specifically) are in need of the financial resources from other to go to Mars (which is the destination we are all talking about, it really is a race it seems). ESA obviously cannot show their people that they are spending Billions on a space program which many would consider a waste considering the hardships felt all around (and the debt levels many are burdened with). And then the United States, not willing to show its hand so blatenly, that they are unwilling to show a desperate lack of funds for a mission to Mars at this time. So by involving China at this stage, by allowing admission to the ISS at this late stage, it is a matter of appeasement to smooth the waters, welcome their money (for the future missions) and make it all seem, as Jim points out with his 'Kumbaya' comment (fairly accurately, imo), and declare all is well with the nations of the world. The ISS partner nations have do the hardest part: they got the thing built & it works. Now they just need (a good slap in the face) to wake up and just do the small things necessary at this stage to make good use out of it. It's so silly, honestly.
|
|
|
|
woods170
|
|
« Reply #23 on: 03/31/2012 06:02 PM » |
|
"these folks" don't matter, US says no.
The world changes and so do American policies. And you are wrong Jim, "these folks" represent other folks that NASA is trying to reach out to. You know, 'winning the hearts and minds' sort of thing. Think what you will Jim. Have a lovely day.
Yep, and we all sit in a circle holding hands singing Kumbaya, after which ponies and unicorns will passed out.
That one brought a big smile on my face. But ah, Happy Martian, you best stop trying to convince Jim. Ain't gonna happen.
|
|
|
|
Ronsmytheiii
|
|
« Reply #24 on: 04/01/2012 07:07 PM » |
|
"these folks" don't matter, US says no.
The world changes and so do American policies. And you are wrong Jim, "these folks" represent other folks that NASA is trying to reach out to. You know, 'winning the hearts and minds' sort of thing. Think what you will Jim. Have a lovely day.
Cheers!
Wow, all you have done is repeated the same line over and over again and added smiley faces. US policy will only change when China stops stealing every technology that they get their hands on, and ends their authoritarian chokehold on their nation. China has little to offer the ISS other than crew rotation. ESA and Russia are only using them as leverage with the US. Congress pays 70% of ISS, and their position has not changed. And if you respond with "things change" you lose and have no knowledge of the status of relations between the two nations for decades.
|
|
|
|
QuantumG
|
|
« Reply #25 on: 04/01/2012 10:17 PM » |
|
US policy will only change when China stops stealing every technology that they get their hands on
It occurs to me that I never hear geeks who hate patent law (and copyright law) talk about China.. too close to reality I guess.
|
|
|
|
simonbp
|
|
« Reply #26 on: 04/02/2012 01:59 AM » |
|
Forget Congress, the probability of getting _all_ the ESA member states to agree to tech-sharing with China is tiny. The reason for the American reluctance is rooted in massive Chinese IP-theft last time they tried in to 90s, leading to ITAR. I doubt there isn't going to be at least one ESA member that won't raise the issue.
|
|
|
|
Robotbeat
|
|
« Reply #27 on: 04/02/2012 03:07 AM » |
|
... The reason for the American reluctance is rooted in massive Chinese IP-theft last time they tried in to 90s, leading to ITAR. ...
That's not the only reason. There's the whole national rivalry deal, which I think is pretty significant.
|
|
|
|
HappyMartian
|
|
« Reply #28 on: 04/02/2012 05:09 AM » |
|
... The reason for the American reluctance is rooted in massive Chinese IP-theft last time they tried in to 90s, leading to ITAR. ...
That's not the only reason. There's the whole national rivalry deal, which I think is pretty significant.
Yep, and America plans ahead. See: The Wealth Report 2012At: http://media.hotnews.ro/media_server1/document-2012-03-28-11858067-0-the-wealth-report-2012.pdfOr: "China will overtake the US to become the world's largest economy by 2020, which in turn will be overtaken by India in 2050." From India to be the largest economy of the world by 2050Published on Wed, Mar 28, 2012 At: http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/real-estate/india-to-belargest-economythe-world-by-2050_686304.htmlAnd to avoid getting accused of being a blind cheerleader for anyone: "China's aging population and the deteriorating natural environment will constrain economic growth, Ma Jiantang, head of the National Bureau of Statistics said Saturday." From: Aging population will constrain economic growthUpdated: 2012-03-17 At: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-03/17/content_14855460.htmChristian Science Monitor 8 reasons America is not in declineAt: http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2012/0306/8-reasons-America-is-not-in-decline/US-still-has-most-competitive-major-economy-in-the-world?google_editors_picks=trueHow Big a Competitive Threat Is China, Really?10:47 AM Wednesday February 29, 2012 by Michael Beckley At: http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2012/02/how_big_a_competitive_threat_i.html#"'With China's working-age population set to decline steadily from 2012 onward due to retirement, the notion that a minimum of 8 percent GDP growth is necessary to sustain full employment and preserve social stability is now outdated,' analysts at Nomura said in a note to clients." From: China sacrifices growth to satiate inflation dragon At: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/03/11/uk-china-economy-inflation-idUKBRE82A02Z20120311Yep, sitting "in a circle holding hands singing Kumbaya" isn't going to play very well with most of the folks in India or much of the rest of the world either. Real benefits and seeing their 'kids' exploring and mining the Moon might work out pretty good. Space exploration has largely been about reaching out to, and motivating, kids and adults around the world. Is the ISS going to be an important steppingstone that gets humans spread out across our Solar System ASAP or is it simply going to become a symbol of how modern countries failed to reach out to and help resolve the urgent need for modernity in developing countries? Sometimes it seems like some of the space cadets on the spaceship Earth are a bit too narcissistic. Maybe the dinosaurs had that problem, too. Whining loudly about details that can be quietly negotiated won't get us where we need to go. And Ronsmytheiii, perhaps you know a lot more about international space politics than Robertross, but maybe you don't. Perhaps you should pay me a visit in China. PM me if you wish to discuss it. Yep, thank you Robertross. I love your above comment, "It's so silly, honestly." Cheers!
|
|
|
|
aquanaut99
|
|
« Reply #29 on: 04/02/2012 06:39 AM » |
|
That one brought a big smile on my face. But ah, Happy Martian, you best stop trying to convince Jim. Ain't gonna happen.
Yes, unfortunately there are still a lot of old-school Cold-Warriors about. But take heart, they will eventually die out. In the end, we will be singing Kumbaya. Because if we don't, the only alternative is tearing ourselves apart in another global conflict (over oil, water, food, living space, whatever). It's either one or the other. And if we do get another global conflict, America will be on the loser side. (In fact, once can argue that the USA hasn't won a major war since WWII, and then only due to the Russians doing most of the fighting for us, but I disgress). ISS is an expensive white elephant of dubious scientific value. It's main achievement is that the USA, Russia and ESA have been forced to sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya in order for it to work... :p
|
|
|
|
