Major KSC refurbishment work continuing ahead of SLS and Orion debuts

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kirghizstan
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« Reply #135 on: 03/17/2012 04:27 PM »

speaking as a non rocket scientist, my initial thought was, that makes no sense.  no commercial company would be willing to put all work on hold and evacuate the area because another company was trying to launch or just performing tests at the pad


Reminds me of railroad roundhouse.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/622963main_6-3_Russell.pdf

From page 11:

Hopefully that one was in jest.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the horrible wrongness of that idea!

 - Ed Kyle
corrodedNut
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« Reply #136 on: 03/17/2012 06:42 PM »

The question that needs to be asked; if all launchers roll out simultaneously...do they form Voltron?
catdlr
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« Reply #137 on: 07/06/2012 09:51 PM »

Status Report ??

KSC: Establishing a New Gateway to Space
Published on Jul 6, 2012 by NASAKennedy

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/SsWS9hBDtyI&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/SsWS9hBDtyI&rel=1</a>
vulture4
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« Reply #138 on: 07/09/2012 03:13 AM »

Anything is possible, but it is not easy to see why the Delta would use LC-39. The Delta is designed strictly for horizontal processing and CX-37B could be activated (and use the existing horizontal integration building) much more cheaply than building a separate facility at LC-39.
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« Reply #139 on: 07/09/2012 03:15 AM »

Anything is possible, but it is not easy to see why the Delta would use LC-39. The Delta is designed strictly for horizontal processing and LC-37B could be activated (and use the existing horizontal integration building) much more cheaply than building a separate facility at LC-39.
There already are horizontal processing facilities, four of them in fact, at LC-39. It would require a different mobile platform than the VAB does, but if you'd read the 21st Century documents, they discussed just this setup.
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« Reply #140 on: 07/28/2012 05:17 PM »

Anything is possible, but it is not easy to see why the Delta would use LC-39. The Delta is designed strictly for horizontal processing and LC-37B could be activated (and use the existing horizontal integration building) much more cheaply than building a separate facility at LC-39.
There already are horizontal processing facilities, four of them in fact, at LC-39. It would require a different mobile platform than the VAB does, but if you'd read the 21st Century documents, they discussed just this setup.
As Ed Kyle noted earlier, there is no way to erect a horizontal rocket at LC-39. Because of the height of the pad surface above the surrounding terrain and the steep slopes around it there is no way to add rails for a gantry crane and given the location of the flame trench, with one section centered on the crawlerway, no simple way to even add an erector arm.

I've seen some of the documents and even been in some of the meetings referred to. Unfortunately this plan is limited to powerpoint sketches where you can draw anything and is not realistic once you consider it in any depth. The central problem is the concept of a multiuser launch facility. That only works when all users need exactly the same thing, and when the facility itself is the most expensive element.

An example of a facility that could be multiuser but is seriously underutilized is the SLF, which is flat concrete with no interfaces at all. No one is on the runway more than a few hours before being towed off to a specialized hangar. The SLF just needs to be rid of the ancient MSBLS.

But a pad is different. Every launch vehicle has unique structural and functional interfaces and different operational requirements, and they all periodically change. The most radical adaptive capability I ever saw in operation was CX-17B which could accommodate both the Delta II and Delta III, requiring five different fueling systems (RP-1, LH2, Aerozine-50, LOX, and N2O4) and access platforms that could be folded into multiple configurations. The vehicle is the expensive part of the system, and the complex is built around it.

The proposed multiuser launch complex plan for LC-39 is not an engineer's response to the problem of high launch costs, it is the response of management to the problem that the world has changed. Yes, with enough money you could make it work, after a fashion. But why? No launch provider would commit to using a pad when a mod needed by a competitor or the launch failure of a competitor's vehicle might shut them down for six months. There's more than enough conflicts over the common use of the Eastern Range command, control, computers and aircraft, and they can presumably switch vehicles in a day or so. Can you imagine the schedule delays when only one vehicle can be on the pad at once, perhaps for weeks? And for a commercial customer, time is money.

Musk is not a magician. SpaceX is able to work more efficiently than NASA because it is, pardon the pun, "vertically integrated". That is to say that to the greatest extent possible the company has direct control of all the resources needed for the launch and answers only to the customer.  Unless he has absolutely no choice Musk will not put himself in a situation he cannot control. And most likely when he has launched a couple of manned Dragons from CX-40 NASA will relent and go along. Similarly, although Boeing is happy to have OPF3 as a single-user processing facility for the CST, in my opinion it will be launched from the existing Atlas pad at CX-41.

The irony is that there are so many things KSC could be doing that could be of enormous practical value to America, from basic R&D in over a dozen fields, no longer tied to the need to claim every test supports the current mission, to clearing away the past and offering each launch provider empty land, utility hookups, and maybe someday a modern range based on GPS tracking and capable of switching vehicles in less than a day. We could be testing the subscale VTOHL reusables the DOD keeps talking about, or even fuel-cell aircraft propulsion, harnessing KSC experience in cryos and runway ops.

KSC can be relevant and indeed vital to our nation in the 21st Century, but only if we have the vision to broaden its mission. KSC can, and must, be much more than just a launch site.
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« Reply #141 on: 07/28/2012 06:44 PM »

Anything is possible, but it is not easy to see why the Delta would use LC-39. The Delta is designed strictly for horizontal processing and LC-37B could be activated (and use the existing horizontal integration building) much more cheaply than building a separate facility at LC-39.
There already are horizontal processing facilities, four of them in fact, at LC-39. It would require a different mobile platform than the VAB does, but if you'd read the 21st Century documents, they discussed just this setup.
As Ed Kyle noted earlier, there is no way to erect a horizontal rocket at LC-39. Because of the height of the pad surface above the surrounding terrain and the steep slopes around it there is no way to add rails for a gantry crane and given the location of the flame trench, with one section centered on the crawlerway, no simple way to even add an erector arm.

I've seen some of the documents and even been in some of the meetings referred to. Unfortunately this plan is limited to powerpoint sketches where you can draw anything and is not realistic once you consider it in any depth. The central problem is the concept of a multiuser launch facility. That only works when all users need exactly the same thing, and when the facility itself is the most expensive element.

An example of a facility that could be multiuser but is seriously underutilized is the SLF, which is flat concrete with no interfaces at all. No one is on the runway more than a few hours before being towed off to a specialized hangar. The SLF just needs to be rid of the ancient MSBLS.

But a pad is different. Every launch vehicle has unique structural and functional interfaces and different operational requirements, and they all periodically change. The most radical adaptive capability I ever saw in operation was CX-17B which could accommodate both the Delta II and Delta III, requiring five different fueling systems (RP-1, LH2, Aerozine-50, LOX, and N2O4) and access platforms that could be folded into multiple configurations. The vehicle is the expensive part of the system, and the complex is built around it.

The proposed multiuser launch complex plan for LC-39 is not an engineer's response to the problem of high launch costs, it is the response of management to the problem that the world has changed. Yes, with enough money you could make it work, after a fashion. But why? No launch provider would commit to using a pad when a mod needed by a competitor or the launch failure of a competitor's vehicle might shut them down for six months. There's more than enough conflicts over the common use of the Eastern Range command, control, computers and aircraft, and they can presumably switch vehicles in a day or so. Can you imagine the schedule delays when only one vehicle can be on the pad at once, perhaps for weeks? And for a commercial customer, time is money.

Musk is not a magician. SpaceX is able to work more efficiently than NASA because it is, pardon the pun, "vertically integrated". That is to say that to the greatest extent possible the company has direct control of all the resources needed for the launch and answers only to the customer.  Unless he has absolutely no choice Musk will not put himself in a situation he cannot control. And most likely when he has launched a couple of manned Dragons from CX-40 NASA will relent and go along. Similarly, although Boeing is happy to have OPF3 as a single-user processing facility for the CST, in my opinion it will be launched from the existing Atlas pad at CX-41.

The irony is that there are so many things KSC could be doing that could be of enormous practical value to America, from basic R&D in over a dozen fields, no longer tied to the need to claim every test supports the current mission, to clearing away the past and offering each launch provider empty land, utility hookups, and maybe someday a modern range based on GPS tracking and capable of switching vehicles in less than a day. We could be testing the subscale VTOHL reusables the DOD keeps talking about, or even fuel-cell aircraft propulsion, harnessing KSC experience in cryos and runway ops.

KSC can be relevant and indeed vital to our nation in the 21st Century, but only if we have the vision to broaden its mission. KSC can, and must, be much more than just a launch site.
LC-39 flat pad has all of the equipment you mention lacking as part of the mobile platform.
vulture4
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« Reply #142 on: 08/02/2012 10:26 PM »

LC-39 flat pad has all of the equipment you mention lacking as part of the mobile platform.

Anything is possible if we want to pay for it. But designing, testing and maintaining two dissimilar sets of GSE and presumably two different launch control centers for Atlas and potentially Falcon would be very expensive. Fully operational pads already exist for both. How would this cost (high tens or more likely low hundreds of millions) be justified?

Cost is what is strangling the human space program, and it will get a lot worse under the Ryan budget. Spending a dime we don't need to sacrifices mission goals and risks cancellation.
Go4TLI
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« Reply #143 on: 08/03/2012 12:57 AM »

LC-39 flat pad has all of the equipment you mention lacking as part of the mobile platform.

Anything is possible if we want to pay for it. But designing, testing and maintaining two dissimilar sets of GSE and presumably two different launch control centers for Atlas and potentially Falcon would be very expensive. Fully operational pads already exist for both. How would this cost (high tens or more likely low hundreds of millions) be justified?

Cost is what is strangling the human space program, and it will get a lot worse under the Ryan budget. Spending a dime we don't need to sacrifices mission goals and risks cancellation.

That's way to black and white and not representative of possible realities in many ways, not to mention the political jab
vulture4
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« Reply #144 on: 08/05/2012 07:31 PM »

LC-39 flat pad has all of the equipment you mention lacking as part of the mobile platform.

Anything is possible if we want to pay for it. But designing, testing and maintaining two dissimilar sets of GSE and presumably two different launch control centers for Atlas and potentially Falcon would be very expensive. Fully operational pads already exist for both. How would this cost (high tens or more likely low hundreds of millions) be justified?

Cost is what is strangling the human space program, and it will get a lot worse under the Ryan budget. Spending a dime we don't need to sacrifices mission goals and risks cancellation.

That's way to black and white and not representative of possible realities in many ways, not to mention the political jab

I agree politics is a factor. What politician wouldn't want to claim he had "saved jobs at KSC"? But the real political force we have to deal with is the fact that American taxpayers want tax cuts. NASA needs to vastly reduce the cost of human spaceflight if we are to ever see more than a handful of people in space.

The facilities are available if there's a program that really wants them, as Boeing commercial is using OPF3, which is the newest major facility in all of LC-39 and has reasonable maintenance costs, for processing the CST. Boeing has no appropriate facility so would have had to build one or share a multiuser facility, which would have been a scheduling nightmare.

But there's been no such request from SpaceX, which has room to process the Dragon, or ULA, which already has a working launch site at CX-41. If NASA provides enough incentive money they will do the job in whatever way NASA wants, but it would be a cardinal error to waste money on a massive refurbishment program to attract "customers" for 50 year old facilities when it provides no practical benefit to the taxpayers who are footing the bill.

That said, if you have ideas as to how existing NASA facilities could be used more productively I would be happy to hear them.
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