SpaceX fairing

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pippin
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« Reply #30 on: 02/13/2012 11:15 PM »

Which of course are the real bread-and-butter market for satcom manufacturers.
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« Reply #31 on: 02/14/2012 11:56 AM »


The SLS may introduce a new fairing size, possibly to contain large lunar landers.
I have zero faith SLS will be anything but a pork money pit.
Ben the Space Brit
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« Reply #32 on: 02/14/2012 12:04 PM »

Purely FWIW, actual and probable demand seems to leave a requirement for two 'families' of fairing sizes: Approximately 5m for commercial satellite launch and approximately 7-8m for HSF cargo launch.
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« Reply #33 on: 02/14/2012 12:24 PM »

Purely FWIW, actual and probable demand seems to leave a requirement for two 'families' of fairing sizes: Approximately 5m for commercial satellite launch and approximately 7-8m for HSF cargo launch.
And which payload would require the big fairing? I don't see any funded project. Everything is in studies. Nothing will get done before the SLS. And, at least until 2021, it will fly Orion. Let's not kid ourselves.
SpaceX might use a 4.1m fairing for the Falcon 9 to get extra performance to GTO. Or a longer 5m with dual manifest capability for the FH. Nothing more for the foreseeable future. Let's remember that even most missions on EELV use the 4m fairing.
Ben the Space Brit
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« Reply #34 on: 02/14/2012 12:39 PM »

Purely FWIW, actual and probable demand seems to leave a requirement for two 'families' of fairing sizes: Approximately 5m for commercial satellite launch and approximately 7-8m for HSF cargo launch.
And which payload would require the big fairing? I don't see any funded project. Everything is in studies.

That's why I said "probable".

Still, you have to admit that a large HSF module, say a lander, would require a large fairing.  If your plans include HSF exploration (which SpaceX's apparently do), then you need to be planning a large fairing.  It's a long way off but I'd be surprised if there isn't a 6-7m fairing option for FH at least being studied.
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« Reply #35 on: 02/14/2012 03:31 PM »

Still, you have to admit that a large HSF module, say a lander, would require a large fairing.  If your plans include HSF exploration (which SpaceX's apparently do), then you need to be planning a large fairing.  It's a long way off but I'd be surprised if there isn't a 6-7m fairing option for FH at least being studied.

This is only true if you have a strong bias against higher flight rates and assembling things in space.  NASA has traditionally viewed things this way but I think it is not prudent to assume as a foregone conclusion that SpaceX would approach things with the same attitude.
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« Reply #36 on: 02/14/2012 04:33 PM »

The usable (net) diameter of 15 ft (4.57 m) of the shuttle cargo bay has since become an industry standard.

That is a really interesting point; I wonder how long it will last? Standards like that can have very long lives; e.g. Roman cart tracks roughly determined the railway gauge initially used in Britain, and therefore most of Europe and North America today. I wonder if 100 years from now Shuttle will be mainly remembered as the vehicle that set the "15-ft standard payload width"...

Urban Legend Historicism alert!  The reality of RR gauge size is that several different widths started out in Britain but the one that won out won out for a variety of engineering and economic reasons, among them that that width was narrow enough to permit reasonable turn radii and wide enough to minimize derailing. Like other engineering decisions, it was the best economic tradeoff that meets at the intersection of two curves going in opposite directions, along with dominance of the most widespread. (simplicity of track construction vs limiting de-railing). The similarity to roman cart track widths, if it exists, is coincidental. (the main question being...which Roman carts? The 2nd century BC Pompeii ones? The 1st century Britain? The 3rd century Aquileia? Standard is not as standard as legend indicates... Although they are all reasonably close for obvious engineering reasons.)

The shuttle component max size may have been set by rail tunnel size, but that's a pretty generous 'standard.'
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« Reply #37 on: 02/14/2012 04:42 PM »

Upto now I have been saying:
SpaceX has to demonstrate the 5m fairing but:
1) A 4.1m fairing for F9 is more in line with the needs of the commercial market (GTO to 3.6tonnes). The extra weight and drag could make a difference in the 100kg order, which might mean being able to tackle an order or not.
2) The current 5m is not enough to make the FH dual manifested, and thus, is too expensive. FH would need an option of a longer fairing with a dual deployment system.
Those are actual and current needs of the market. The rest is person wet dreams.
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« Reply #38 on: 02/14/2012 05:22 PM »

Still, you have to admit that a large HSF module, say a lander, would require a large fairing.  If your plans include HSF exploration (which SpaceX's apparently do), then you need to be planning a large fairing.  It's a long way off but I'd be surprised if there isn't a 6-7m fairing option for FH at least being studied.

This is only true if you have a strong bias against higher flight rates and assembling things in space.  NASA has traditionally viewed things this way but I think it is not prudent to assume as a foregone conclusion that SpaceX would approach things with the same attitude.

I don't want the thread to go OT, so I'll just make one technical point - the width of the fairing has little to do with on-orbit assembly.  It is simply the alternative to building a narrow, high or narrow, long vehicle.  JWST has also demonstrated just how problematic and elaborate folding TPS can be.


@ baldusi,

The real issue is cost.  If you can really only afford one fairing size right now, a 5m-class one is the one you want because you can handle wider payloads, should any come your way.  Also building a 4m-class PLF would be an extra cost that isn't really a necessity.  Not all companies have pockets as deep as ULA.

Regarding the PLF length, I read somewhere that SpaceX is claiming a variable-length PLF, should there be customer interest to justify its development.  Additionally, has SpaceX ever claimed it wishes to do Ariane-5-style dual launches or is this just a forum assumption of what they will do with FH?
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« Reply #39 on: 02/14/2012 05:39 PM »

  JWST has also demonstrated just how problematic and elaborate folding TPS can be.


No, it hasn't.  Point out one problem.
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« Reply #40 on: 02/14/2012 05:41 PM »

Additionally, has SpaceX ever claimed it wishes to do Ariane-5-style dual launches or is this just a forum assumption of what they will do with FH?
Yes.  IIRC, Shotwell mentioned it almost 2 years ago. 
baldusi
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« Reply #41 on: 02/14/2012 06:42 PM »

The real issue is cost.  If you can really only afford one fairing size right now, a 5m-class one is the one you want because you can handle wider payloads, should any come your way.  Also building a 4m-class PLF would be an extra cost that isn't really a necessity.  Not all companies have pockets as deep as ULA.
I seriously doubt that developing a smaller fairing is very expensive. In fact, it might well be the cheapest part of the rocket. And it is quite commercial. Ariane 5, Vega, and Atlas V all use Ruag and Antares uses  fairings, I know Delta IV offered the SYLDA, so it seems to be a COTS piece of equipment. Please note that the separation mechanism, sound suppression inlay, connectors, etc. are mostly the same.
In any case, it might well be the cheapest upgrade available for the money. Remember that a 4m fairing has 38% less drag losses. That's a lot. So, in every 5.2m launch that would fit a 4m they are paying that cost. That also translates into strain on the thrust structure. Less strain allows for more aggressive ascent profiles. And since Falcon can fly with 3.6m Dragon, and 5.2m fairing, flying with 4m should be easy. An there's weight issues. In the case of the Atlas V, the 5m medium fairing is 1700kg heavier than the 4m. And the F9 separates the fairing while the US is firing, so it does adds an extra weight.
What's more, I think very few commercial satellites need 5m. If you need that you can only use Arian 5 (120M), Atlas V(180M) or H-IIA (I don't know how much). If you can use 4m, then you can use Proton (80M), Sea Launch (around 70M?), Soyuz-ST, LM-3BE. What do you think satellite operators usually chose? In particular, Atlas V and H-IIA/b have zero share in the commercial market. And only five satellites per year use the upper part of the Arian 5. So at most (and I guess is much less) there are five commercial satellites that might need 5m.
Look into the fairing sizes for DoD, too. Delta IV did 11 4m launches and 2 5m launches, plus the 5 heavies, of course. Atlas IV is 19 of 4m vs 9 of 5m. In just 3 (the two OTV plus one NROL) of the 11 launches (sans heavy) of 5m F9 could match the performance of the LV. So overall it would seem that they would rather get the extra performance
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Regarding the PLF length, I read somewhere that SpaceX is claiming a variable-length PLF, should there be customer interest to justify its development.  Additionally, has SpaceX ever claimed it wishes to do Ariane-5-style dual launches or is this just a forum assumption of what they will do with FH?
I think it was proposed somewhere. But I'm stating that as an economist. The FH is too expensive unless you dual manifest for at least 80% of the GTO market (that's about 16 satellites/yr, btw). Without dual manifest it's too expensive. Will be dirty cheap if they do, though.
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« Reply #42 on: 02/14/2012 06:54 PM »

Keep in mind drag losses are more significant for smaller rockets. Wouldn't make much of a difference for larger rockets (Falcon Heavy in particular).
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« Reply #43 on: 02/14/2012 07:47 PM »

Keep in mind drag losses are more significant for smaller rockets. Wouldn't make much of a difference for larger rockets (Falcon Heavy in particular).
The Atlas V guide says that the GTO (1800m/s deficit) difference between a 400 and a 500 is almost 950kg. A 401 to a 501 is 700kg. Between a Delta IV (4,2) and a (5,2) is 1,076kg. I couldn't get the numbers on any other LV (the H-IIA didn't shows for same configuration, and the Ariane 5 doesn't offers 4m). Those are not trivial numbers. And going from 3.5tonnes to 4.5tonnes means reaching 35% vs 50% of the market.
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« Reply #44 on: 02/14/2012 07:53 PM »

Those are not trivial numbers.

Nor are they solely due to higher drag. A bigger fairing weighs more, there's also additional hardware for Atlas in the 5xx variant like the CFLR.
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