Author Topic: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”  (Read 29026 times)

Offline Rocket Science

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I know what you’ve read about the Dream Chaser and how it was based on the Russian BOR-4 and all. Even NASA’s own webpage states that the HL-20, Dream Chaser’s ancestor was based on it. This is doing a disservice to all the Lifting Body work done by Dale Reed and the magnificent series of X-planes, such as the X-23, X-24A/B, the HL-10 and M2-F1/2/3. One obscure and forgotten program was Martin’s Space Taxi or “Yellowbird”. It was displayed in the Hall of Science at the 1964 New York World’s Fair. It was shown with an Orbital Space Station that was animated with the docking Space Taxis and the film “Rendezvous in Space” made to explain the program. The Space Shuttle did fulfill the vision of the conceptual program at a larger scale, but the Dream Chaser is closer to the actual vision dimensionally depicted by Martin.  Sorry BOR, you were about 20 years too late to claim the concept.
http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topic/10567-martin-company-at-hall-of-science/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=P2iKXSRt6aM

« Last Edit: 10/28/2011 10:11 PM by Rocket Science »
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Offline Rocket Science

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A couple more...
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Offline BrightLight

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I would bicycle to the hall on weekends and watch the show every time I went. I knew then that lifting bodies are not only way cool but the right way to get back down. Thanks for reminding me of where I came from!

Offline Rocket Science

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I would bicycle to the hall on weekends and watch the show every time I went. I knew then that lifting bodies are not only way cool but the right way to get back down. Thanks for reminding me of where I came from!
Sweet, I guess we lived close by. I was at the tip of the South Bronx at Clason point. Went to fair when it opened, pretty cool stuff to have seen...

Regards
Robert
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Offline raketen

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I know what you’ve read about the Dream Chaser and how it was based on the Russian BOR-4 and all. Even NASA’s own webpage states that the HL-20, Dream Chaser’s ancestor was based on it. This is doing a disservice to all the Lifting Body work done by Dale Reed and the magnificent series of X-planes, such as the X-23, X-24A/B, the HL-10 and M2-F1/2/3.

A small wind tunnel model was initially made by NASA Langley using photos of the BOR-4.  This was used to generate the mold line of other wind tunnel models and eventually the HL-20 mockup (now the SNC Dream Chaser).  BTW, the HL-20 designation was selected, tongue-in-cheek, because it was "twice as good as the HL-10."  It was assumed at the time that the U.S. lifting body work may have influenced the BOR-4 design, but it became clear from wind tunnel results that the Soviets had obviously put a lot of effort in refining the shape they eventually flew to orbit 4 times.

Offline Rocket Science

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I know what you’ve read about the Dream Chaser and how it was based on the Russian BOR-4 and all. Even NASA’s own webpage states that the HL-20, Dream Chaser’s ancestor was based on it. This is doing a disservice to all the Lifting Body work done by Dale Reed and the magnificent series of X-planes, such as the X-23, X-24A/B, the HL-10 and M2-F1/2/3.

A small wind tunnel model was initially made by NASA Langley using photos of the BOR-4.  This was used to generate the mold line of other wind tunnel models and eventually the HL-20 mockup (now the SNC Dream Chaser).  BTW, the HL-20 designation was selected, tongue-in-cheek, because it was "twice as good as the HL-10."  It was assumed at the time that the U.S. lifting body work may have influenced the BOR-4 design, but it became clear from wind tunnel results that the Soviets had obviously put a lot of effort in refining the shape they eventually flew to orbit 4 times.
Sure, they refined an American Idea that first flew into space 1966 as the X-23. Way before BOR in the eighties. It's a good idea we took back. :)
Compare side by side...
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Online mike robel

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I swear I remember that same display in the Denver museum of Natural History.  It amazes me how much the station looks like the Revelll Space Station model from the 1950s.

Offline GClark

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Actually, the genesis of the BOR-4 is at the same time more complex and yet simpler than that.

What would become the BOR-4 was first sketched out at the bureau of Pavel Tsybin in the late 'fifties right around the same time as Eggers was developing the M1 - the PKA.  The design was eventually passed off (I'm simplfying this more than a little) to Mikoyan where it landed on Lozino-Lozinskys' desk.  He developed it into the  Spiral EPOS.  Sub-scale tests of BOR-1, -2, and -3 models were flown in the 'sixties and 'seventies, along with the piloted MiG 105.11 (now at Zhukovskii).

Rather than an adaptation of US lifting bodies, IMNSHO the BOR was a case of concurrent development.

Note:  Technically, there was no X-23.  The sub-scale SV-5 reentry tests were simply called SV-5D/PRIME.  Andreas Parsch has a discussion of this at his Designation Systems website.

V/R,

Edit: Added name of SV-5D program.
« Last Edit: 10/29/2011 06:52 AM by GClark »

Offline Rocket Science

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Actually, the genesis of the BOR-4 is at the same time more complex and yet simpler than that.

What would become the BOR-4 was first sketched out at the bureau of Pavel Tsybin in the late 'fifties right around the same time as Eggers was developing the M1 - the PKA.  The design was eventually passed off (I'm simplfying this more than a little) to Mikoyan where it landed on Lozino-Lozinskys' desk.  He developed it into the  Spiral EPOS.  Sub-scale tests of BOR-1, -2, and -3 models were flown in the 'sixties and 'seventies, along with the piloted MiG 105.11 (now at Zhukovskii).

Rather than an adaptation of US lifting bodies, IMNSHO the BOR was a case of concurrent development.

Note:  Technically, there was no X-23.  The sub-scale SV-5 reentry tests were simply called SV-5D/PRIME.  Andreas Parsch has a discussion of this at his Designation Systems website.

V/R,

Edit: Added name of SV-5D program.

Yes, I know about the Mig 105/Spiral. Jet powered and folding wings, which makes them just a conventional swept wing A/C in landing config, not a pure lifting body as was "Yellowbird". Also, by your logic "technically", there was no BOR 4 or X-38, since they were "subscale" as well ::)
« Last Edit: 10/29/2011 02:30 PM by Rocket Science »
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Offline GClark

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(Heavy sigh)  Now you've made me go all over pedantic.

"The X-23A designation is generally attributed to the Martin Marietta SV-5D PRIME unmanned lifting body reentry test vehicle, but available USAF nomenclature records show that X-23A was never actually assigned. On 16 November 1965, the designation X-23A was requested for the SV-5P [sic!] vehicle, which is known to have been designated as X-24A in mid-1967 (see next paragraph). The vehicle description accompanying the designation request of 1965 clearly describes the SV-5P as a low-speed (Mach 2 to landing) manned lifting-body aircraft. However, in a letter dated 15 December 1965, the request was disapproved for the reason that the subject aircraft was unmanned (at that time, the aircraft designation system was still used as originally intended in 1962, i.e. for manned aircraft only)! This appears to be very weird indeed, but apparently there was a severe misunderstanding regarding the nature of the research aircraft at the office which had to approve the designation.

In late 1966, the offices responsible for the USAF's lifting body reentry programs again pondered the question how to designate the test vehicles. After a stillborn proposal to introduce a completely new designation category for gliding reentry vehicles, it was decided that the best way to go was to request the designations X-23A for the unmanned SV-5D PRIME and X-24A for the manned SV-5P. X-24A was accordignly requested and approved, but it appears that no actual request for X-23A was ever sent to the nomenclature office. Reasons are unknown, but maybe it was realized that an MDS request for an unmanned vehicle was futile, especially when the rejection of the 1965 request for X-23A explicitly said that unmanned aircraft need no designation. Whatever the reasons, the designation X-23A was never even requested for, let alone allocated to, the SV-5D PRIME vehicle. "

Source:  http://designation-systems.net/usmilav/missing-mds.html

This is heading OT.  I would debate the origin of the BOR family of lifting bodies with you all night, but the mods probably wouldn't appreciate it very much.

I recommend more reading, young padawan.

V/R,

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #10 on: 10/30/2011 12:20 PM »
Sometimes “X” is assigned to programs for no other reasons other than its “sexy” which in turn means “funding”.  Getting back on thread it is interesting how if you look at the Martin “Yellowbird”,  you can definitely see its influence on Northop’s HL-10… Interesting…  ;)

Regards
Robert

Some history for those interested...
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4220/contents.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/saintii.htm
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=20965.0
« Last Edit: 10/30/2011 01:10 PM by Rocket Science »
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #11 on: 11/02/2011 12:19 AM »
Martin concept for HL-10

http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=4912

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Offline simonbp

And predating all that, the Martin Model 410 Apollo proposal. It actually outscored NAA in the ranking, but lost as it was too different from what Faget & Co. had asked for.

(last is a 3d rendering I did)

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #13 on: 11/08/2011 11:24 AM »
And predating all that, the Martin Model 410 Apollo proposal. It actually outscored NAA in the ranking, but lost as it was too different from what Faget & Co. had asked for.

(last is a 3d rendering I did)
Great pics Simon, but the "biconic capsule" is a bit OT. Thanks for sharing just the same.

Robert
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #14 on: 11/08/2011 11:26 AM »
A historical timeline of U.S. and U.S.S.R. efforts...

http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Arts/Art4293.htm
« Last Edit: 11/08/2011 11:26 AM by Rocket Science »
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Offline simonbp

It's not a actually biconic capsule, it's the Langley M-1 lifting body shape, which was the father of the M2-F1 and the grandaddy of all other US lifting bodies...

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #16 on: 11/09/2011 11:23 PM »
It's not a actually biconic capsule, it's the Langley M-1 lifting body shape, which was the father of the M2-F1 and the grandaddy of all other US lifting bodies...
Hey Simon,
Yup, I know the M-1 is an oldie in lifting body concepts, but I guess I’m not making myself clear in my thread, that it isn’t about lifting bodies in general but a “Space Taxi” to and from a space station that has its history in the lifting body vein. That being said, is your model rendered for Orbiter Sim, I’m always looking for some good addons, especially “grandpa”…   ;)

Regards
Robert
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Online mike robel

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #17 on: 09/07/2012 04:03 PM »
Sort of a Bump.  I seem to recall an exhibit in the Denver Museum of Natural History of the Yellowbird and the Space Station.  I also am touched by the resemblence of the Martin Space Station to the Revell Space Station model of 1953.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #18 on: 09/07/2012 04:19 PM »
Sort of a Bump.  I seem to recall an exhibit in the Denver Museum of Natural History of the Yellowbird and the Space Station.  I also am touched by the resemblence of the Martin Space Station to the Revell Space Station model of 1953.
I'm thinking you mean this one Mike?

http://www.oldmodelkits.com/index.php?detail=4298&searchtext=space%20station
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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #19 on: 09/07/2012 09:03 PM »
Yep, that's the one.  I have one in my collection.  Sort of my pride, along with the XSL-01.  Unfortunantly, it did not turn out so well as I would have liked when I built it.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #20 on: 12/18/2013 08:22 AM »
« Last Edit: 12/18/2013 08:31 AM by Rocket Science »
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #21 on: 12/18/2013 04:27 PM »
Where the heck would the docking port be in that tiny thing? It's not a very useful thing without that...

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #22 on: 12/18/2013 05:16 PM »
Where the heck would the docking port be in that tiny thing? It's not a very useful thing without that...
It was suposed to dock via the nose to the station as it was displayed at the NY World's Fair. I rotated the pic from the previous page.
« Last Edit: 12/18/2013 05:18 PM by Rocket Science »
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #23 on: 12/18/2013 05:49 PM »
If anyone knows where this vehicle is today please let us know! :)
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #24 on: 12/18/2013 08:24 PM »
Where the heck would the docking port be in that tiny thing? It's not a very useful thing without that...
It was suposed to dock via the nose to the station as it was displayed at the NY World's Fair. I rotated the pic from the previous page.

Perhaps, but none of the other images (of models and schematics) show anything like - or room for anything like - a docking mechanism.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #25 on: 12/18/2013 08:42 PM »
Where the heck would the docking port be in that tiny thing? It's not a very useful thing without that...
It was suposed to dock via the nose to the station as it was displayed at the NY World's Fair. I rotated the pic from the previous page.

Perhaps, but none of the other images (of models and schematics) show anything like - or room for anything like - a docking mechanism.
I know what you mean Lars... but look at 4:24 and 7:00 in the second video and you will see. When I saw Yellowbird in person I was eight and I've been hooked on lifting bodies ever since... :)
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Offline Rocket Science

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« Last Edit: 12/20/2013 09:02 AM by Rocket Science »
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Offline RanulfC

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #27 on: 12/31/2013 07:40 PM »
Just found this on NTRS, "The Study of the Influance of Size of a Manned Lifting Body Entry Vehicle on Research Potential and Cost" starring none other than the "Yellow-Bird" D-3 :)
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670020694_1967020694.pdf

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Offline Jester

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #28 on: 12/31/2013 08:21 PM »
If anyone knows where this vehicle is today please let us know! :)

Contact  Jim O'Kane

snip:
its in a museum warehouse in Oklahoma. Repainted sometime in 1986 to look more like Dyna-Soar
http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topic/10567-martin-company-at-hall-of-science/#entry84339

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #29 on: 01/22/2014 08:53 PM »
If anyone knows where this vehicle is today please let us know! :)

Contact  Jim O'Kane

snip:
its in a museum warehouse in Oklahoma. Repainted sometime in 1986 to look more like Dyna-Soar
http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topic/10567-martin-company-at-hall-of-science/#entry84339
Thanks Jester, I think I might have located him.  :) We'll see if he replies!
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Offline Prober

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #30 on: 01/22/2014 11:26 PM »
If anyone knows where this vehicle is today please let us know! :)

not bad, not bad and only 12,000 plus pounds.
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Offline pburkhardt

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #31 on: 02/09/2014 06:09 PM »
Was the "Yellowbird" basically the same space plane that David Janssen flew to rescue the Apollo vehicle "Ironman One" in the 1969 film "Marooned?"  Sure looks like it...minus one fin...and with a big ole engine added to the rear... ;)

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #32 on: 02/10/2014 10:10 PM »
Was the "Yellowbird" basically the same space plane that David Janssen flew to rescue the Apollo vehicle "Ironman One" in the 1969 film "Marooned?"  Sure looks like it...minus one fin...and with a big ole engine added to the rear... ;)
That is actutally the PRIME/SAINT II/X-23/X-24A moldline. IIRC the vehicle used in the movie was an old X-24A mock-up. I've been trying to recall how I came across that info. It is on display the the Space and Rocket Center in Alabama, hanging from the ceiling...

http://archive.is/ie9p5

http://photovalet.com/data/comps/TAR/TARV03P08_07.jpg
« Last Edit: 02/11/2014 07:43 PM by Rocket Science »
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #33 on: 02/10/2014 10:23 PM »
Here is some more Russian misinformation how they claimed to have created the exact HL-20 mold line including going so far as to say the X-38 is also based on their design work when it was based on the PRIME X-23/X-24A.  Which flew into space almost two decades before BOR. The underbody camber looks nothing alike and the BOR had a “flat bottom” and folding wings to zero dihedral....

http://malchish.org/avtor/img/maxon/kosmos/space_wings.htm

(click on  Google translate)
« Last Edit: 02/10/2014 10:25 PM by Rocket Science »
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #34 on: 08/31/2015 12:39 AM »
I came across some hard to find photos of Yellowbird being installed at the Hall of Science in New York.
One can really see the aero work that led to the HL-10. 8)

http://nysci.org/installing-rendezvous-in-space/

« Last Edit: 08/31/2015 12:44 AM by Rocket Science »
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Some great images here that I'd never seen before. Thanks for sharing! Here's an article I write on the design story that led to the Dream Chaser. It's still difficult to know how much the HL-10 et al influenced Mikoyan work on Spiral, but given that NASA made no secret of their work on Lifting Bodies I suspect they would certainly have been aware of the American designs.

The influence of the BOR4 shape on the HL-20 is fully acknowledged so maybe the whole thing has just gone full-circle!

https://thehighfrontier.wordpress.com/2015/10/27/dream-chaser-dna-a-story-of-spaceplane-evolution/

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #36 on: 11/15/2015 04:00 PM »
Some great images here that I'd never seen before. Thanks for sharing! Here's an article I write on the design story that led to the Dream Chaser. It's still difficult to know how much the HL-10 et al influenced Mikoyan work on Spiral, but given that NASA made no secret of their work on Lifting Bodies I suspect they would certainly have been aware of the American designs.

The influence of the BOR4 shape on the HL-20 is fully acknowledged so maybe the whole thing has just gone full-circle!

https://thehighfrontier.wordpress.com/2015/10/27/dream-chaser-dna-a-story-of-spaceplane-evolution/
Great article Chris, thanks for the link! :)
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Offline Jimmy Murdok

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #37 on: 11/15/2015 04:16 PM »
Another great article. It´s in Spanish from Daniel Marin, but I really recommend you to use Google Translator, it´s a jewel. When I´ve time I might translate it.
http://danielmarin.naukas.com/2010/12/14/la-nave-espacial-sovietica-que-copiaron-los-estados-unidos/

Offline TrevorMonty

Some great images here that I'd never seen before. Thanks for sharing! Here's an article I write on the design story that led to the Dream Chaser. It's still difficult to know how much the HL-10 et al influenced Mikoyan work on Spiral, but given that NASA made no secret of their work on Lifting Bodies I suspect they would certainly have been aware of the American designs.

The influence of the BOR4 shape on the HL-20 is fully acknowledged so maybe the whole thing has just gone full-circle!

https://thehighfrontier.wordpress.com/2015/10/27/dream-chaser-dna-a-story-of-spaceplane-evolution/
Great article Chris.

The HL20 along with other shelved NASA/government research/development programs are never a waste of time. Here are just a few that have been dusted off and lead to commercial products.
1) HL20 and Dream Chaser.

 2) Inflatable Transhab which Bigelow has picked up.

3) Bionic capsule and Blue Origin orbital space vehicle.

4) DCX engineers ended up at Blue Origin, Armadillo Aerospace. Not sure but wouldn't be surprised if Masten and SpaceX have links to DC-X program.

5) Aerospike engine and Firefly.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #39 on: 11/16/2015 07:45 PM »
Yep, that's the one.  I have one in my collection.  Sort of my pride, along with the XSL-01.  Unfortunately, it did not turn out so well as I would have liked when I built it.

Chanting....  "What do we want?  PICTURES! When do we want it?  NOW!" (in the appropriate thread of course!)
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #40 on: 11/18/2015 12:21 PM »
Not what you're discussing, but a predecessor study.

Offline Antilope7724

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #41 on: 11/18/2015 06:50 PM »
Interesting that post Shuttle and with 30 years of experience with a winged spacecraft we are going back to capsules and not going with small lifting body spacecraft. Dream Chaser is still a dream.
« Last Edit: 11/18/2015 06:51 PM by Antilope7724 »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #42 on: 11/18/2015 07:20 PM »
Interesting that post Shuttle and with 30 years of experience with a winged spacecraft we are going back to capsules and not going with small lifting body spacecraft. Dream Chaser is still a dream.

Well, they had problems back then, particularly high landing speeds.

I'm not sure that the problems they had then are necessarily what did in DreamChaser recently. My understanding is that DreamChaser may have been done in by other issues, including a late start and a more complicated design that did not easily fit the specific requirements for the program. But I'm sure that this has all been discussed to death on one of the other more appropriate threads on this site, so I'll stop.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #43 on: 01/14/2016 09:53 PM »
Dream Chaser will finally get to fly space missions! Your cargo-taxi has arrived sir... ;D
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob, Physics instructor, aviator, vintage auto racer

Offline Antilope7724

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #44 on: 01/15/2016 11:39 AM »
Yes, congrats to SNC and the Dream Chaser. Now all the have to do is paint it yellow.  ;D

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #45 on: 01/15/2016 03:19 PM »
Yes, congrats to SNC and the Dream Chaser. Now all the have to do is paint it yellow.  ;D
"You can have it any color you want as long as its black"

Henry Ford
 ;D
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob, Physics instructor, aviator, vintage auto racer

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #46 on: 11/08/2017 11:23 AM »
A little bump before the upcoming Dream Chaser flight test...
« Last Edit: 11/08/2017 12:37 PM by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob, Physics instructor, aviator, vintage auto racer

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Before Dream Chaser: The Martin Space Taxi “Yellowbird”
« Reply #47 on: 11/08/2017 04:36 PM »
Yes, congrats to SNC and the Dream Chaser. Now all the have to do is paint it yellow.  ;D
"You can have it any color you want as long as its black"

Henry Ford
 ;D

Well the bottom has to be black as that's the color of  most of the materials that can handle those temps.

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