Author Topic: Poll proposal: should the US collaborate in space with China?  (Read 9503 times)

Online RonM

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They collaborate with multiple entities. ESA, Russians, also ILO

Oh, is that all we're talking about? As far as I can tell, they're not any better off for the experience than the US.

I thought the OP was talking about an ISS-scale cooperation.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/10/science-uk-manned-mission-mars-china-us

Quote
On their return George Osborne announced in his autumn statement that Britain is setting aside £80m for an international space co-operation fund for emerging powers. China and India, which both have highly developed space programmes, will be free to apply.

Please read the article above in full.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/20/china-jade-rabbit-rover-space-politics

NASA Budget: £18bn.
CNSA : Budget: $1.3bn
ISRO : Budget: $1.3bn.
ESA : Budget: $5.5bn
RSA : Budget : $5.5bn.
JAXA : Budget: $2.5bn

Obviously,  £80m anywhere else but NASA will go much further.

Still haven't seen a reason provided

IMHO, I think it would be a good idea to have China and India become partners in ISS. Both China and India would add resources and talent. As you can see above, their combined space programs have a budget about the size of JAXA.

China would still want to build their own space station, but through the ISS they could cooperate with other nations on international manned spaceflight. Beyond that, the framework of the ISS partners could be used for BEO manned missions.

In today's world, no one nation has the economic will for manned Lunar or Mars missions. If all the major space programs worked together, then we could finally get out of LEO.

Offline pagheca

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I can create a poll if no one else does, but I'd like to see it be more than just a yes no... what are the possible alternatives? Here are some I came up with

- No collaboration or cooperation of any sort other than what is required by international law (NOTAMs and the like)
- Sharing research results after the fact (modify ITAR as required in every case from here down)
- Access to the DSN for Chinese scientific missions plus the above
- Flying experiments on each other's vehicles plus the above
- Launching craft on each other's  vehicles plus the above
- Invite the Chinese to be an ISS partner (if ESA and other parties agree) plus the above
- Plan the ISS followon to incorporate the Chinese plus the above
- Allow private firms to plan future commercial (ISRU and resource extraction) joint ventures with the Chinese


Thanks. The list is an interesting topic for debating but, IMHO, a bit too technical and long to read and understand. Also for me it would be difficult with to vote with this level of resolution. With 3-4 options it would collect more votes.


Online Lar

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Offline pagheca

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Great! Thanks a lot!

Offline HappyMartian

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Still haven't seen a reason provided


"More than 70 nations use the International Space Station (ISS) for research today, and a growing realization of its value is driving a sense of urgency to continue the unique facility after the scheduled 2020 shutdown, and replace it once it is gone."

Post-ISS Orbital Outposts Taking Shape   By Frank Morring, Jr.  Aviation Week
At: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_09_30_2013_p24-620364.xml


When you have an international science laboratory in space and you exclude the direct participation of a large space-faring nation, it has the appearance that politics is more important than science and you want a political alliance that excludes a significant player on the world stage.

Why should that large space-faring nation then be expected to help you out in trying to resolve international issues?

Have you provided "a reason" to exclude that large space-faring nation?     
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Offline Khadgars

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The Chinese should not bother collaborating with the USA.

Historically, the USA has a record of breaking agreements and making unilateral decisions which its partners then have to work around.   It is much better for China to develop its own expertise and let the USA decline as a "space power".

How do you figure?  Chinese HSF launch rate is worse than SLS in its worse case.  By end of the decade US will have 2 different HSF launch options, maybe 3.  Curiosity's landing on Mars was significantly more difficult than Cheng 3.  U.S planetary science is unmatched.  No question U.S is in a bit of a lull right now, but hardly on the decline.

Offline pagheca

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I would suggest to comment only on the actual poll created by Lar not here. See link below:

A poll has been created here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33581.msg1136927#msg1136927

please do not comment here anymore!.

Offline Prober

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The future of human race lies in the cooperation of the whole human race. We're one.

Sorry, but Utopian ideas never work.

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― Winston Churchill
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
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Offline heinkel174

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I was always intrigued by the west estimate of the CNSA budget.

It is impossible to derive a ‘budget’ for CNSA for it is simply not a Chinese counterpart of NASA, ESA, Roscosmos or JAXA. It’s hat that various institutes and individuals from the civilian sector of the space industry wear, when managing public outreach or dealing with the outside world. EVERYONE on the top positions of CNSA has other ‘day jobs’, usually in COSTIND and CAS.

Guess what, the address of the CNSA headquarter is same as the COSTIND, because loosely speaking they are the same institute bearing two different names (that’s an oversimplification but you get what I mean).

Offline pagheca

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sorry for the question OT, but since today I can't access anymore the actual poll thread:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33581.new;topicseen#new

I got the e-mail saying "a reply has been posted to a topic you are watching by catiare." but when I click on it I got the message:

"The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.".

Is that normal? Does it happen to anyone else? Or the poll has for some reason removed?
« Last Edit: 12/24/2013 10:14 PM by pagheca »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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I also got a strange response. I could view the poll page and then submitted my answer, but was then told I could not view the page!
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline pagheca

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do you remember the section the poll was included? I suspect it has been removed but maybe access has been moved. I would be curious to know for which reason. ITAR? :)

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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I think it was in the General Discussion section.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online Lar

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do you remember the section the poll was included? I suspect it has been removed but maybe access has been moved. I would be curious to know for which reason. ITAR? :)
It was going south due to excessive political comments so, although I started the thread, I reported it. I imagine I may not have been the only one who did that.

I just checked through my posts and I can't find any to that thread so I assume it got scotched.

(you can check your posts too by following this link, I think

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts
or
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=40145  (these are mine, the first link will be the reader, for whoever reads this... you, me, whoever)

)
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Online RonM

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I checked my posts and that thread has been killed.

Why didn't they remove the offending posts, lock the thread, and leave reasonable ones for people to look at?

Isn't the editing here getting a little heavy handed?

Offline savuporo

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Isn't the editing here getting a little heavy handed?
If you saw what stuff people started dragging out of the dark corners, no. That thread belonged under politics section in the first place.
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Online RonM

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Isn't the editing here getting a little heavy handed?
If you saw what stuff people started dragging out of the dark corners, no. That thread belonged under politics section in the first place.

I missed the worst of it. Good thing, I guess. You're right, that poll should have been in the politics section.

Offline pagheca

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Frankly speaking I'm astonished by what happened. Why not to cancel the offending posts reminding what can be done and what not, as happened many times?

I noticed since the beginning that the poll was not in the right section, but, first, I would have expected at least a word in this thread to say why the poll itself has been removed. Second, from what I read, very different but interesting point of views, were posted, as expected.  No offenses, or harsh discussions. So, I think banning of this poll is someway related to the problem: we are not allowed to talk about the relations in space between these two countries. Imagine if we can think of collaborating!

No problems. Bye bye - I'll go somewhere where polite, on-topic comments can be posted without risking that the time spent writing them is just wasted. Sorry for my (rapid) transit through this website coming to the end and for being concerned about the future of collaboration in space.

Of course read this quickly: I expect it will be cancelled as well any soon as a dangerous form of criticism.
« Last Edit: 12/26/2013 01:08 PM by pagheca »

Offline HappyMartian

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Frankly speaking I'm astonished by what happened. Why not to cancel the offending posts reminding what can be done and what not, as happened many times?

I noticed since the beginning that the poll was not in the right section, but, first, I would have expected at least a word in this thread to say why the poll itself has been removed. Second, from what I read, very different but interesting point of views, were posted, as expected.  No offenses, or harsh discussions. So, I think banning of this poll is someway related to the problem: we are not allowed to talk about the relations in space between these two countries. Imagine if we can think of collaborating!

No problems. Bye bye - I'll go somewhere where polite, on-topic comments can be posted without risking that the time spent writing them is just wasted. Sorry for my (rapid) transit through this website coming to the end and for being concerned about the future of collaboration in space.

Of course read this quickly: I expect it will be cancelled as well any soon as a dangerous form of criticism.



Pagheca, sometimes one or two or fifty or even ninety of your posts get erased or placed in limbo for some unknown period of time.

Maybe I hold this site's absolute record for the number of times my posts have disappeared.  :)

I have posted many times "about the relations in space between these two countries" and probably most of those posts are still in their original threads. And, I too am very "concerned about the future of collaboration in space".

In brief, I do learn from and enjoy the wide diversity of excellent articles and useful comments and nifty ideas that are available at this website. And I do enjoy posting here... even when my posts get erased.

Popularity often doesn't have much to do with truth. Folks around the world just celebrated the birthday of an individual who was not rewarded with anything nice for his attempts to communicate the truth as he saw it.

In the big picture, maybe it is wise not to get annoyed or upset about minor issues.

So please don't give up on NASASpaceflight.com!

Have a Happy New Year and keep on posting here!

Cheers!


Edited.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2014 11:21 AM by HappyMartian »
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