Author Topic: Argentina's SLV development  (Read 39403 times)

Offline Nahavandi

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Re: Argentina's Tronador II
« Reply #20 on: 01/02/2012 11:05 PM »
BTW, could a mod change the Thread's title to "Argentina's Launch Vehicle development" or something like that?

I'll change it right now .

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #21 on: 05/14/2012 03:50 PM »
Not exactly about the LV, but the comm sats that we are launching next year have their coverage maps online:
http://www.arsat.com.ar/satelites.html

Offline Nahavandi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #22 on: 05/14/2012 05:28 PM »
Not exactly about the LV, but the comm sats that we are launching next year have their coverage maps online:
http://www.arsat.com.ar/satelites.html

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #23 on: 07/06/2012 02:09 PM »
This is a Presentation of August 23th, 2011 by CONAE. There's some info about the SAC-D, some info about the CONAE's Falda del Carmen testing lab (shakers, vacuum chamber, anechoic chamber, etc.) for small sats. Then there's some information about the SAOCOM, with weight, measures, and a very interesting organizational chart. The B&W image is made by the SARAT, an aircraft borne SAR for development purposes of the SAOCOM subsystems.
And last, there's the latest concept of the Tronador II. It's a lot more logical from what I see:

LEO orbital launcher
Polar Orbits at altitude 600km
Maximum payload: 250kg (it's not clear if it it that to 600km or the maximum of the LV).
Built in Argentina
Launched in Argentina

Total Length: 27m
Total Weight: 60 tonnes
Dry Weight: 8 tonnes
First Stage: Diameter 2.5m, Thrust 90tonnes force.
Second Stage: Diameter 2.5m, Thrust 30tonnes force.
Third Stage: Diameter 1.5m, Thrust 4tonnes force.

Offline osiossim

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #24 on: 07/09/2012 12:12 PM »
Dear baldusi,

I always wonder about the rationale behind Argentina's launch vehicle development program.

Can you share some ideas about it?

Offline spaceStalker

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #25 on: 07/09/2012 02:03 PM »
Prestige + ICBM's, the usual..

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #26 on: 07/09/2012 02:28 PM »
We had an ICBM (Condor II), and atomic technology, we simply decided not to pursue. In fact, many US nuclear war heads have Argentinian material. I won't say, though, that the fact that Brazil is doing a SLV isn't part of the motivation, though.
The truth is the we have developed a relatively advanced satellite capabilities upto 3.5 tonnes. But the national aerospace agency, CONAE, is betting on a segmented (or fractional) satellite architecture, like the DARPA F5 architecture. Thus they need really small launchers for cheap. They had an objective of 6M per launch for a 250kg payload to a 600km SSO. I don't really think they can pull it off, I think everybody who tried it has failed (see Pegasus, SpaceX, etc.). And it's probably that if anybody achieves those prices will be with an evolution of XCOR, Masten or Armadillo, rather than the equivalent of Scud technology. They do appear to have taken a page from SpaceX. As they apparently will use the same engine for first and second stage.
And they have some experience with hypergolic propellents from the satellite thrusters and the T4000 project will end up making the third stage engine. My guess is that they are also developing an indigenous kick engine for satellites. Basically, you can't share much technology from a modern LV with your satellite industry, but you can with hypergolics.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #27 on: 07/09/2012 03:45 PM »
In fact, many US nuclear war heads have Argentinian material.

Source?
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Offline Downix

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #28 on: 07/09/2012 04:25 PM »
In fact, many US nuclear war heads have Argentinian material.

Source?
Argentina was a prime source of Uranium for US warheads for a long period, currently supplied through companies such as Blue Sky and Calypso.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #29 on: 09/11/2012 07:19 PM »
According to this article:
The failed T4000 was a test of the TVS system. It failed to ignite due to a valve. The planned impulse time was just 10 seconds.
The current plan has six stages, called VEX. Only four are talked about and I'll correct some mistakes that I'm assuming they are makings.

VEX 1: One stage. Apparently it will weight 1.8tonnes and have a 4tnf engine (the articles states it the other way around, which doesn't makes any sense). Apparently is a 30 seconds mission with an optional additional 30 seconds. Budgeted for 2013/14.
VEX 2: First Stage will use 3 x 4tnf engines. Second Stage will use a 4tnf engine. Budgeted for 2014/15/16.
VEX 3: One 30tnf engine. Budgeted from 2015 onwards.
VEX 4: One 30tnf engine.
VEX 5: First Stage 3 x 30tnf and Second Stage 1 x 30tnf + RSC (new development). Apparently it will stage at 80km.

I've mixed the information on the article with the information from the Budget Office. Just download the Excel, items 57125 (VEX I), 57126 (VEX II) and 57630 (VEX III).

Offline albatros68

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #30 on: 10/10/2013 02:42 PM »
Argentina's CONAE might  test Tronador/VEX 1 October 12-17 at 35-31.26S 057-11.3W

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #31 on: 10/11/2013 01:56 PM »
Argentina's CONAE might  test Tronador/VEX 1 October 12-17 at 35-31.26S 057-11.3W
Source? El diario de Punta de Indio? Ojo que ese no es el lugar de lanzamiento y me hace pensar que es un ensayo sin lanzamiento.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #32 on: 11/10/2013 12:32 AM »
Apparently CONAE did a press day in Las Pipinas, Punta de Indio, Buenos Aires Province with the VEX-1, the first technological demonstrator for the Tronador II project. Apparently it's, basically, the upper stage, with a flight GNC, and the mission objective is to demonstrate the avionics (GNC). They are planning a total of 6 demonstrator missions. The plan is to launch on 2015 Sept NET for the orbital capable Tronador II Tecnológico (this might imply a technology demonstrator). Budget is 2B Pesos (287M at today exchange rate) in the next three years.

VEX 1
Length: 14.5m
Weight: >3tonnes
Launch: next few weeks.

The article (Spanish)
A youtube video (Spanish)

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #33 on: 11/10/2013 12:35 AM »
Some of the screencaps of the video on the InfoBAE article:

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #34 on: 11/10/2013 12:36 AM »
And some more.

Offline cdemczuk

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #35 on: 11/12/2013 04:01 AM »
It's incredible to think that with this launch we are waiting to see a "failure" to find what's wrong. According to Varotto the chances of succes are 10%. Of course it's a test, and there is not such thing as a failure. 8)

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #36 on: 11/15/2013 02:45 PM »
It's incredible to think that with this launch we are waiting to see a "failure" to find what's wrong. According to Varotto the chances of succes are 10%. Of course it's a test, and there is not such thing as a failure. 8)
Varotto knows about managing expectations. Look at the failure of the T4000. It was a very shameful failure. And look at any other on-off project. Aborts and failure are the norm. That's the route CONAE has chose. Which given the budget and experience I think is a wise one. They lack the infrastructure, experience and budget to do a system egineering heavy approach like current NASA/DoD. So small and evolving is the most reasonable way to go. Which, incidentally, is how all other space powers did it originally.

Offline cdemczuk

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #37 on: 11/15/2013 09:38 PM »
Yes, you are right! Varotto is being very carefull about this project. He is aware that any little thing could shut down the project (by internal or external forces). I'm not an expert in the subject but I notice that the rocket engine nozzle is pretty weir, isn´t it? Not the cup form that I usually saw, especially being this the second stage which should work at low pression.  This is a recent photo of VEx-1 at launch pad (not mine). Hablamos en inglés siendo los dos argentinos pero supongo que hay que hacerlo para dejar el tema abierto a los demás. Saludos. ;)

Offline baldusi

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #38 on: 11/24/2013 02:11 PM »
From http://www.hidro.gov.ar/Nautica/Radioav/radioCRP.asp:

Quote
** RIO de la PLATA 1930 23/11/13 **
----------------------------------------
PROVINCIA DE BUENOS AIRES
RIO DE LA PLATA MEDIO Y EXTERIOR
CARTA H-116

PROHIBIDA NAVEGACION PESQUERA Y DEPORTIVA POR LANZAMIENTO SATELITE TRONADOR II,
DIA 29 DE NOV POR LA MAÑANA, EN EL ÁREA DETERMINADA POR:
PSN 35-31.26S 057-11.3W Y RADIO DE 7 KM.

Short version: forbidden navegation on Nov 29 in the described zone due to the launch of the VEX.

The referenced chart (Carta H-116) is the Exterior Rio de la Plata and can be downloaded from here.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2013 02:29 PM by baldusi »

Offline lbiderman

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Re: Argentina's SLV development
« Reply #39 on: 11/29/2013 11:23 PM »
From http://www.hidro.gov.ar/Nautica/Radioav/radioCRP.asp:

Quote
** RIO de la PLATA 1930 23/11/13 **
----------------------------------------
PROVINCIA DE BUENOS AIRES
RIO DE LA PLATA MEDIO Y EXTERIOR
CARTA H-116

PROHIBIDA NAVEGACION PESQUERA Y DEPORTIVA POR LANZAMIENTO SATELITE TRONADOR II,
DIA 29 DE NOV POR LA MAÑANA, EN EL ÁREA DETERMINADA POR:
PSN 35-31.26S 057-11.3W Y RADIO DE 7 KM.

Short version: forbidden navegation on Nov 29 in the described zone due to the launch of the VEX.

The referenced chart (Carta H-116) is the Exterior Rio de la Plata and can be downloaded from here.

No news yet. I have a "contact" inside CONAE, I'll ask her if they where able to pull the launch off.
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