Author Topic: Soyuz-MS spacecraft  (Read 11125 times)

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #15 on: 08/15/2011 06:16 PM »
Now that I'm reading it again. Could they be referring to Kurs?

One of the rumors floating around is that a Soyuz-TMA-M flight in 2013 will test Kurs-NA, which would then be a standard feature on Soyuz-MS.

My understanding that Kurs-NA is functionally identical to Kurs-CM, the current flavor, just modernized, ie using integrated circuits.


Didn't the Kurs also had some Ukranian components? Wouldn't this allow them to have a 100% Russian Kurs? Besides, I understand the Kurs was developed when Soyuz had the processing power of a calculator. Couldn't they add some new mode to allow more precise approach? One that allowed it to dock with an IDSS?

The current Kurs system was manufactured in the Ukraine. I suspect that the boxes are being refurbished after missions, but there are probably diminishing stocks of them, due to failures and cannibalization.

The Russians have been wanting to replace the Ukrainian boxes with Russian boxes (Kurs-NA), but there also has been a desire to create a totally new improved version of Kurs (Kurs-MM).  The latest rumor indicates that the near term plan is to go with Kurs-NA, which is functionally identical to the current boxes. That means that there is no requirement to update the Kurs system on ISS to interface with the updated system, the same antennas and Kurs-P at ISS will still work. To go with a millimeter based system, ISS Kurs would have to be upgraded, and that is a big deal.

Offline patchfree

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #16 on: 08/16/2011 04:32 PM »
I think that one of innovations of the Soyouz (and Progress) MS series will be use of the GPS/Glonass in the trajectory of the spacecraft (and also for landing of cosmonautes). This was previously announced amoung the successive improvements of the spacecraft: Visor replaced by video, new solar pannels, use of GPS, and so on...

The surprise went only from the attribution of a new name.

Online russianhalo117

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #17 on: 12/17/2012 06:48 AM »
Do we have any new information on this? Recent graphics would be appreciated if available. According to Interfax UK the first flight of Soyuz MS series is delayed by one year to early 2016.

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #18 on: 12/17/2012 08:28 PM »
Do we have any new information on this? Recent graphics would be appreciated if available. According to Interfax UK the first flight of Soyuz MS series is delayed by one year to early 2016.

There were several Russian press reports on this latest Soyuz upgrade last year. This is one of the more detailed ones, based on an interview with RKK Energiya chief Vitaliy Lopota at last year's MAKS air show :

http://www.spacecorp.ru/press/branchnews/item2048.php

He described the main modifications as follows :

- higher power output from the solar panels through the use of more efficient photovoltaic cells
- different arrangement of the approach and orientation thrusters which should make it possible to achieve docking even if one of the engines fails or perform a safe de-orbit burn even "if there are two failures in the engines"
- a new system of mutual measurements for approach and docking. Instead of the optical device now used for control and manual orientation of the vehicle, a so-called "video orientator" is being developed whose work will not be hampered by orbital lighting conditions as is currently the case
- improved communications systems
- the old command radio link will be replaced by a unified command/telemetry system which will make it possible to receive telemetry via satellite and control the vehicle when it is not within sight of Russian ground stations
- GLONASS/GPS receivers which after parachute deployment and after touchdown will make it possible to send exact coordinates to Mission Control via the Kospas/Sarsat system

This should be the last major Soyuz upgrade before the new-generation manned vehicle is introduced. As usual, some of the modifications will be initially tested on Progress vehicles called Progress-MS.

Note that other sources have referred to the vehicle as Soyuz TMA-MS.




Online russianhalo117

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft (aka Soyuz TMA-MS)
« Reply #19 on: 12/17/2012 08:48 PM »
Thanks for the info.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #20 on: 10/08/2013 09:31 PM »
Couldn't this include the mods necessary for Soyuz-2b?

My impression is that the mods described by Energia would cause Soyuz to lose mass, which is the opposite of what is required for Soyuz 2-1b. A lighter Soyuz and a more capable LV mean that existing drop zones will be unusable.

Would Soyuz be volume limited? Couldn't they simply add more cargo/fuel? Or at that point the LAS becomes the limiting factor? If so it would seem to me that the Soyuz would be limited to the Soyuz-2a. Since it's about 17% cheaper, doesn't seems to be a problem (unless you want a significantly higher ISS).

On the other hand, the Progress MS on Soyuz-2b should put a significant bigger amount of cargo, wouldn't it? It would seem interesting to understand how does this relates to the Progress that's supposed to bring the MLM.

There are controlability issues for Soyuz that do not exist for Program M1 if attempts are made to fill the OM (BO) with significant amounts of additional cargo; of course the LAS would present problems with an extra ton of mass on Soyuz.


Hmmm ... it seems that all of these issues got conflated elsewhere.

The purpose of another modernization of Soyuz would be to test subsystems that will fly on the new generation, and apparently so many new subsystems are proposed that this version of Soyuz will get  a new designation. The result of the modernization will be that the Soyuz will be somewhat lighter than previous variants.

At the same time, this version of Soyuz may fly on Soyuz 2. Since the spacecraft will be lighter, there is no need to spend all of the extra money required for the "B" version of Soyuz, the cheaper "A" will be sufficient. Or Soyuz-FG could continue as the baseline launcher, since there does not seem to be a mass requirement to upgrade the LV.

Also, the "A" version is only marginally more capable than the current Soyuz-FG (~200 kg), so the drop zone problem is not so bad (drop zone problem, in this case, means that the lighter Soyuz will fly a different trajectory than the older, heavier Soyuz and so lower stages will fall in different places).

What this all means is that there probably would be some mass available for extra cargo in the (hopefully less crowded) OM, as long as some ballast or new systems were installed in the PAO to balance it out. Or possibly some extra mass at the very bottom of the descent module, but not so much as to impact the lifting capability during re-entry.  Another possibility would be a "tweak" of the thruster system (changing the cant of the nozzles slightly) to allow for front loading.

Anyway,  I have no idea as to when or whether the MS version of Soyuz will ever fly. The proposed flight dates of the new generation spacecraft are only 4 years away or so, leaving Roskosmos with the prospect of entering both spacecraft into operation at the same time.

« Last Edit: 10/08/2013 09:35 PM by Danderman »

Offline Prober

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #21 on: 10/08/2013 10:05 PM »
Link to specs?
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #22 on: 10/08/2013 10:27 PM »
I don't have any specs. I don't even have much of an update from the 2011 announcement about Soyuz-MS. I did find this snippet:

http://www.energia.ru/ru/news/news-2013/public_06-19.html

translated by Google and me:

It is known that RSC Energia  is working on the creation of ships such as "Soyuz " and " Progress" of the new series - "Soyuz MS" and " Progress  MS." Commissioning of the first cargo ship series " MS" is planned in 2015. In 2014, the factory should begin testing this ship. I recall that , in contrast to the "Soyuz TMA " and " Progress M " on the "Soyuz MS" and " MS Progress " will be installed satellite navigation systems GLONASS and GPS, as a modern radio link control with satellite channel connection , upgraded hardware automatically rendezvous"Kurs" , a digital television radio link ,  extra micrometeorite protection , as well as for a series of improvements aimed at improving the reliability and security of ships, increasing the level of harmonization and the replacement of obsolete materials and components to modern.

Online russianhalo117

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #23 on: 10/09/2013 02:44 PM »
I don't have any specs. I don't even have much of an update from the 2011 announcement about Soyuz-MS. I did find this snippet:

http://www.energia.ru/ru/news/news-2013/public_06-19.html

translated by Google and me:

It is known that RSC Energia  is working on the creation of ships such as "Soyuz " and " Progress" of the new series - "Soyuz MS" and " Progress  MS." Commissioning of the first cargo ship series " MS" is planned in 2015. In 2014, the factory should begin testing this ship. I recall that , in contrast to the "Soyuz TMA " and " Progress M " on the "Soyuz MS" and " MS Progress " will be installed satellite navigation systems GLONASS and GPS, as a modern radio link control with satellite channel connection , upgraded hardware automatically rendezvous"Kurs" , a digital television radio link ,  extra micrometeorite protection , as well as for a series of improvements aimed at improving the reliability and security of ships, increasing the level of harmonization and the replacement of obsolete materials and components to modern.
Mr. Zak hears that Soyuz MS is planned to begin factory tests sometime in 2015, with factory tests concluding in 2016 (if no issues occur) with first flight around early 2017 (this timeline matches nicely with anik's Russian Launch Schedule). Also apparently a TMA-M deferred item, the flight computer system in PAO Compartment is planned to move to the descent compartment thus replacing Descent Computer System.

Entry Corrected
« Last Edit: 10/09/2013 03:03 PM by russianhalo117 »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #24 on: 10/09/2013 03:01 PM »
Mr. Zak hears that Soyuz MS is planned to begin factory tests sometime in 2015, with factory tests concluding in 2016 (if no issues occur) with first flight around early 2017 (this timeline matches nicely with anik's Russian Launch Schedule). Also apparently a TMA-M deferred item, the flight computer system in Instrumentation Compartment is planned to move to the descent compartment thus replacing Descent Computer System.

Let me elaborate on this a bit.

The Soyuz flight computer is located in the PAO, mostly because the old Argon-16 was so large. This means that after separation of the modules prior to re-entry, the Soyuz descent module loses its flight computer. As compensation, the descent module carries a small computer to control the re-entry. 

With the flight computer moving to the descent module, there is no requirement for a separate re-entry computer any more, since the flight computer can control re-entry.

However, moving the flight computer from the PAO requires major modifications to Soyuz - the cabling has to be modified, and the center of gravity of the spacecraft will change.

There was a discussion about radically modifying the cabling in Soyuz, in particular, that a fiber optic system could be introduced, saving maybe 200 kg in mass.



Online Fuji

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #25 on: 12/17/2013 06:06 AM »
Russian space agency may resume ten-day flights to ISS
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/711713

Quote
Russian federal space agency, Roskosmos, may renew short-term ten-day flights to the ISS when a new generation of U.S. spacecraft enters service. On the other hand, long-term missions to the ISS are to be prolonged to nine months as soon as upgraded Soyuz spacecraft are commissioned in 2015, the director of human space flight at Roskosmos, Aleksey Krasnov, told Itar-Tass Monday.
Quote
“We may switch to nine-month flights, as we hope that the new spacecraft, which is now in the upgrade stage [Soyuz TMA-MS], will be able to stay in orbit longer than the current one [Soyuz TMA-M],” Krasnov said.
Quote
The first Soyuz TMA-MS flight is scheduled for 2015. This Soyuz version is to have better solar cell panels, modified docking and attitude control engines, which will allow for approaching and docking with the ISS even if one of the engines fails, and ensure re-entry despite any two engine failures. The spacecraft will have modern communication and emitter location systems, as well as command line system - all using satellite data transmission channels. Motion control and navigation systems will undergo the most dramatic overhaul.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #26 on: 12/17/2013 01:59 PM »
So no more H2O2 for RCS oxidizer?

Offline Prober

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #27 on: 12/17/2013 02:03 PM »
So no more H2O2 for RCS oxidizer?

that's a major change and "might" be going in the wrong fuel direction?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33280.0
« Last Edit: 12/17/2013 02:07 PM by Prober »
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Offline baldusi

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #28 on: 12/17/2013 03:53 PM »
So no more H2O2 for RCS oxidizer?

that's a major change and "might" be going in the wrong fuel direction?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33280.0
H2O2 decomposes. That's why the Soyuz was certified for 210days in space. If they are doing 9 months missions, that would mean at least 300days in space of certification. They had to make a new system for PTK to stay one year in BEO. So I guess they are developing slowly.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #29 on: 12/17/2013 03:55 PM »
Don't rule out a better containment system for the Soyuz-MS H202.

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