Author Topic: Soyuz-MS spacecraft  (Read 18962 times)

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #20 on: 10/08/2013 09:31 PM »
Couldn't this include the mods necessary for Soyuz-2b?

My impression is that the mods described by Energia would cause Soyuz to lose mass, which is the opposite of what is required for Soyuz 2-1b. A lighter Soyuz and a more capable LV mean that existing drop zones will be unusable.

Would Soyuz be volume limited? Couldn't they simply add more cargo/fuel? Or at that point the LAS becomes the limiting factor? If so it would seem to me that the Soyuz would be limited to the Soyuz-2a. Since it's about 17% cheaper, doesn't seems to be a problem (unless you want a significantly higher ISS).

On the other hand, the Progress MS on Soyuz-2b should put a significant bigger amount of cargo, wouldn't it? It would seem interesting to understand how does this relates to the Progress that's supposed to bring the MLM.

There are controlability issues for Soyuz that do not exist for Program M1 if attempts are made to fill the OM (BO) with significant amounts of additional cargo; of course the LAS would present problems with an extra ton of mass on Soyuz.


Hmmm ... it seems that all of these issues got conflated elsewhere.

The purpose of another modernization of Soyuz would be to test subsystems that will fly on the new generation, and apparently so many new subsystems are proposed that this version of Soyuz will get  a new designation. The result of the modernization will be that the Soyuz will be somewhat lighter than previous variants.

At the same time, this version of Soyuz may fly on Soyuz 2. Since the spacecraft will be lighter, there is no need to spend all of the extra money required for the "B" version of Soyuz, the cheaper "A" will be sufficient. Or Soyuz-FG could continue as the baseline launcher, since there does not seem to be a mass requirement to upgrade the LV.

Also, the "A" version is only marginally more capable than the current Soyuz-FG (~200 kg), so the drop zone problem is not so bad (drop zone problem, in this case, means that the lighter Soyuz will fly a different trajectory than the older, heavier Soyuz and so lower stages will fall in different places).

What this all means is that there probably would be some mass available for extra cargo in the (hopefully less crowded) OM, as long as some ballast or new systems were installed in the PAO to balance it out. Or possibly some extra mass at the very bottom of the descent module, but not so much as to impact the lifting capability during re-entry.  Another possibility would be a "tweak" of the thruster system (changing the cant of the nozzles slightly) to allow for front loading.

Anyway,  I have no idea as to when or whether the MS version of Soyuz will ever fly. The proposed flight dates of the new generation spacecraft are only 4 years away or so, leaving Roskosmos with the prospect of entering both spacecraft into operation at the same time.

« Last Edit: 10/08/2013 09:35 PM by Danderman »

Offline Prober

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #21 on: 10/08/2013 10:05 PM »
Link to specs?
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #22 on: 10/08/2013 10:27 PM »
I don't have any specs. I don't even have much of an update from the 2011 announcement about Soyuz-MS. I did find this snippet:

http://www.energia.ru/ru/news/news-2013/public_06-19.html

translated by Google and me:

It is known that RSC Energia  is working on the creation of ships such as "Soyuz " and " Progress" of the new series - "Soyuz MS" and " Progress  MS." Commissioning of the first cargo ship series " MS" is planned in 2015. In 2014, the factory should begin testing this ship. I recall that , in contrast to the "Soyuz TMA " and " Progress M " on the "Soyuz MS" and " MS Progress " will be installed satellite navigation systems GLONASS and GPS, as a modern radio link control with satellite channel connection , upgraded hardware automatically rendezvous"Kurs" , a digital television radio link ,  extra micrometeorite protection , as well as for a series of improvements aimed at improving the reliability and security of ships, increasing the level of harmonization and the replacement of obsolete materials and components to modern.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #23 on: 10/09/2013 02:44 PM »
I don't have any specs. I don't even have much of an update from the 2011 announcement about Soyuz-MS. I did find this snippet:

http://www.energia.ru/ru/news/news-2013/public_06-19.html

translated by Google and me:

It is known that RSC Energia  is working on the creation of ships such as "Soyuz " and " Progress" of the new series - "Soyuz MS" and " Progress  MS." Commissioning of the first cargo ship series " MS" is planned in 2015. In 2014, the factory should begin testing this ship. I recall that , in contrast to the "Soyuz TMA " and " Progress M " on the "Soyuz MS" and " MS Progress " will be installed satellite navigation systems GLONASS and GPS, as a modern radio link control with satellite channel connection , upgraded hardware automatically rendezvous"Kurs" , a digital television radio link ,  extra micrometeorite protection , as well as for a series of improvements aimed at improving the reliability and security of ships, increasing the level of harmonization and the replacement of obsolete materials and components to modern.
Mr. Zak hears that Soyuz MS is planned to begin factory tests sometime in 2015, with factory tests concluding in 2016 (if no issues occur) with first flight around early 2017 (this timeline matches nicely with anik's Russian Launch Schedule). Also apparently a TMA-M deferred item, the flight computer system in PAO Compartment is planned to move to the descent compartment thus replacing Descent Computer System.

Entry Corrected
« Last Edit: 10/09/2013 03:03 PM by russianhalo117 »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #24 on: 10/09/2013 03:01 PM »
Mr. Zak hears that Soyuz MS is planned to begin factory tests sometime in 2015, with factory tests concluding in 2016 (if no issues occur) with first flight around early 2017 (this timeline matches nicely with anik's Russian Launch Schedule). Also apparently a TMA-M deferred item, the flight computer system in Instrumentation Compartment is planned to move to the descent compartment thus replacing Descent Computer System.

Let me elaborate on this a bit.

The Soyuz flight computer is located in the PAO, mostly because the old Argon-16 was so large. This means that after separation of the modules prior to re-entry, the Soyuz descent module loses its flight computer. As compensation, the descent module carries a small computer to control the re-entry. 

With the flight computer moving to the descent module, there is no requirement for a separate re-entry computer any more, since the flight computer can control re-entry.

However, moving the flight computer from the PAO requires major modifications to Soyuz - the cabling has to be modified, and the center of gravity of the spacecraft will change.

There was a discussion about radically modifying the cabling in Soyuz, in particular, that a fiber optic system could be introduced, saving maybe 200 kg in mass.



Offline Fuji

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #25 on: 12/17/2013 06:06 AM »
Russian space agency may resume ten-day flights to ISS
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/711713

Quote
Russian federal space agency, Roskosmos, may renew short-term ten-day flights to the ISS when a new generation of U.S. spacecraft enters service. On the other hand, long-term missions to the ISS are to be prolonged to nine months as soon as upgraded Soyuz spacecraft are commissioned in 2015, the director of human space flight at Roskosmos, Aleksey Krasnov, told Itar-Tass Monday.
Quote
“We may switch to nine-month flights, as we hope that the new spacecraft, which is now in the upgrade stage [Soyuz TMA-MS], will be able to stay in orbit longer than the current one [Soyuz TMA-M],” Krasnov said.
Quote
The first Soyuz TMA-MS flight is scheduled for 2015. This Soyuz version is to have better solar cell panels, modified docking and attitude control engines, which will allow for approaching and docking with the ISS even if one of the engines fails, and ensure re-entry despite any two engine failures. The spacecraft will have modern communication and emitter location systems, as well as command line system - all using satellite data transmission channels. Motion control and navigation systems will undergo the most dramatic overhaul.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #26 on: 12/17/2013 01:59 PM »
So no more H2O2 for RCS oxidizer?

Offline Prober

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #27 on: 12/17/2013 02:03 PM »
So no more H2O2 for RCS oxidizer?

that's a major change and "might" be going in the wrong fuel direction?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33280.0
« Last Edit: 12/17/2013 02:07 PM by Prober »
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Offline baldusi

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #28 on: 12/17/2013 03:53 PM »
So no more H2O2 for RCS oxidizer?

that's a major change and "might" be going in the wrong fuel direction?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33280.0
H2O2 decomposes. That's why the Soyuz was certified for 210days in space. If they are doing 9 months missions, that would mean at least 300days in space of certification. They had to make a new system for PTK to stay one year in BEO. So I guess they are developing slowly.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #29 on: 12/17/2013 03:55 PM »
Don't rule out a better containment system for the Soyuz-MS H202.

Online Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #30 on: 12/17/2013 04:19 PM »
Starting with Soyuz TMA-5, the H2O2 system had already been improved, resulting in a slight life-duration extension. I doubt they can do better with this system (SIOS) : I guess they should make a major redesign of it.
Nicolas PILLET
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Offline anik

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #31 on: 12/17/2013 05:21 PM »
Quote
The first Soyuz TMA-MS flight is scheduled for 2015

The first Soyuz MS launch wil be NET March 2017.

Online Olaf

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #32 on: 12/17/2013 05:30 PM »
Quote
The first Soyuz TMA-MS flight is scheduled for 2015

The first Soyuz MS launch wil be NET March 2017.

Are this different spacecraft?

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #33 on: 12/17/2013 05:32 PM »
Quote
The first Soyuz TMA-MS flight is scheduled for 2015

The first Soyuz MS launch wil be NET March 2017.

Are this different spacecraft?
AFAIK, They are same but some corporations and agencies are using different designations.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2013 05:32 PM by russianhalo117 »

Online Olaf

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #34 on: 12/17/2013 05:44 PM »
Quote
The first Soyuz TMA-MS flight is scheduled for 2015

The first Soyuz MS launch wil be NET March 2017.

Are this different spacecraft?
AFAIK, They are same but some corporations and agencies are using different designations.
But there are a difference of two years, or maybe one year and some months.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2013 05:45 PM by Olaf »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #35 on: 12/17/2013 05:49 PM »
Quote
The first Soyuz TMA-MS flight is scheduled for 2015

The first Soyuz MS launch wil be NET March 2017.

Are this different spacecraft?
AFAIK, They are same but some corporations and agencies are using different designations.
But there are a difference of two years, or maybe one year and some months.
you can ask Anik, but they are the same SC Series.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #36 on: 12/17/2013 06:03 PM »
Starting with Soyuz TMA-5, the H2O2 system had already been improved, resulting in a slight life-duration extension. I doubt they can do better with this system (SIOS) : I guess they should make a major redesign of it.

there may not have been an actual improvement in the H2O2 system for TMA-5, but rather experts from Energia re-qualified the system from 180 days to 210 days.

Quote
The first Soyuz TMA-MS flight is scheduled for 2015

The first Soyuz MS launch wil be NET March 2017.

The later date almost always wins.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2013 06:05 PM by Danderman »

Online Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #37 on: 12/17/2013 06:21 PM »
Starting with Soyuz TMA-5, the H2O2 system had already been improved, resulting in a slight life-duration extension. I doubt they can do better with this system (SIOS) : I guess they should make a major redesign of it.

there may not have been an actual improvement in the H2O2 system for TMA-5, but rather experts from Energia re-qualified the system from 180 days to 210 days.

There have been actual improvment : system СТЭО (Система Термоэлектрический Охладитель) !

http://www.kosmonavtika.com/vaisseaux/soyouz/tech/sio/sio.html
Nicolas PILLET
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Offline Prober

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #38 on: 12/17/2013 07:45 PM »
Don't rule out a better containment system for the Soyuz-MS H202.

agreed; more on the h2o2 system
http://suzymchale.com/ruspace/soyuz.html
There will also be an improved cooling system for the hydrogen peroxide re-entry control thrusters, enabling the Soyuz to remain in space for up to a year. The ship would be designated Soyuz TMA-Ts, «Союз-ТМА-Ц», the “Ts” meaning Цифровой, Tsifrovoi, digital (later changed to “M”, presumably for “Modernized”).
« Last Edit: 12/18/2013 01:35 AM by Prober »
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Offline anik

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Re: Soyuz-MS spacecraft
« Reply #39 on: 12/17/2013 08:43 PM »
Soyuz TMA-MS does not exist. There will be Soyuz MS beginning with factory number 731. In FPIP schedule in L2 section we can see Soyuz TMA-M with number 722 and launch in September 2016. I doubt that the next ship in November 2016 will be 731 due to presence of only one Russian on board it. That is why the first Soyuz MS launch can not be earlier than March 2017. Soyuz MS will be Soyuz TMA-M with fully modernized and tested systems. The date of first Soyuz MS launch depends on results of first flights of Progress MS ships too.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2013 08:45 PM by anik »

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