ISS-based cryogenic third stages as expendable Earth-Moon tugs

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Danderman
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« Reply #15 on: 07/18/2011 05:58 AM »

We suppose an international company. That company buy bulks of cryogenic third stages from countries willing to sell them
The company evidently also buy a rocket ride to loft these stages into low earth orbit. Evidently no payload is carried; no GEO satellite.


OK, so far, this is pretty much like the CSI Lunar Express, so it sounds good at this point.


Meanwhile, lunar heavy payloads (15- 20 tons) are launched and dock to the ISS.

How exactly do these lunar heavy payloads dock with ISS, and what fraction of the injected mass is allocated to orbit matching with ISS, prox ops prop consumption, rendezvous gear, power for the rendezvous avionics, etc.?

The company provide the cryogenic stages with Soyuzautomated rendezvous and docking gear (Kurs + probe-and-drogue).
Then a booster loft the cryogenic third stage near the ISS no fly zone, the payload disengage from the space station, dock to the stage, fire, head to L1 / L2 / LLO.

This a mere expension of CSI Soyuz/ block D scheme that involve the ISS into a lunar flight.

By using the ISS for a lunar program, we don't have to wait 2028 and the end of its useful life to return beyond LEO...

Thoughts ?

Getting your hands on Kurs for the cryogenic upper stage will cost more money than you could ever imagine. Plus, your lunar heavy payload will require active Kurs to dock with the cryogenic stage, which means that the avionics of the lunar heavy payload would have to be "married" to the Kurs system - you can't just take any flight computer and hook it up to Kurs, its got to be designed for it, since Kurs handles much of the computations for docking.

Lunar Express makes lunar missions for human affordable, since it re-uses Soyuz, obviating the need to pay for Soyuz for lunar missions. Your architecture seems to make lunar missions more expensive, but for no obvious benefit other than "involving ISS".

JohnFornaro
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« Reply #16 on: 07/18/2011 02:08 PM »

As to the OP.   Almost absolutely.  Why not a kerolox tug?  ISP, Schmi-SP.  It could be good enough.  The environment is not too hot to keep O2 chilly, and not too cold to keep kero from freezing.  The ISS becomes Harper's Ferry.  A little town where all the railroads converged.  After the country grew up a bit, Harper's Ferry, and the ISS become a quaint LEO B&B.
Archibald
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« Reply #17 on: 07/23/2011 12:13 PM »

Danderman,
Points noted.
Doesn't the ATV use Kurs ?
Now I see, what would be needed would be something like the Orbital Manoeuvering Vehicle imagined for Freedom 25 years ago. The OMV would be based at the ISS and use Kurs (if that save any money).

Quote
Getting your hands on Kurs for the cryogenic upper stage will cost more money than you could ever imagine.

Can you detail more ? I'm curious...

Quote
Your architecture seems to make lunar missions more expensive, but for no obvious benefit other than "involving ISS".

Certainly it is far from ideal. I vastly prefers libration point rendezvous. I imagined this  in reaction to the ongoing events - a) the ISS is already there b) the shuttle is gone, Soyuz is the only manned ship left, and on. Neither NASA nor Congress are that rational - my plan is no worse than building a SLS without any payload ;)

Danderman
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« Reply #18 on: 07/27/2011 02:36 AM »

Danderman,
Points noted.
Doesn't the ATV use Kurs ?

ATV has Kurs for reference only, there are no links between the ATV Kurs and the flight computer - this means that rendezvous cannot be conducted using Kurs.

Danderman
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« Reply #19 on: 07/27/2011 02:37 AM »



Quote
Getting your hands on Kurs for the cryogenic upper stage will cost more money than you could ever imagine.

Can you detail more ? I'm curious...


My assertion is based on years of experience in places like NIITP in Moscow.
Danderman
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« Reply #20 on: 07/27/2011 02:38 AM »

Now I see, what would be needed would be something like the Orbital Manoeuvering Vehicle imagined for Freedom 25 years ago. The OMV would be based at the ISS and use Kurs (if that save any money).

Getting your hands on Kurs for the OMV would cost you more money than you can ever imagine.

Why not use Progress as a tug?
Archibald
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« Reply #21 on: 07/27/2011 06:34 AM »

Ah, I see where it all goes.
Kurs is the only (AFAIK - Shenzhou perhaps ?) automated docking system in the world, and the russians know that, so they sell it at a high price. The usual business of a monopolistic position, Microsoft-style.
In the end it is cheaper to buy a second-hand Soyuz or Progress with an on-board Kurs ! Kind of buying an old car just for a couple of unique spares.
Using Progress as a tug ? why not ? it reminds me of this http://www.ulalaunch.com/site/docs/publications/AIAASpace2008PaperMarkAFoster.pdf

The PBF used a second-hand ATV as a tug.  (ATF/PBF CONOPS)
douglas100
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« Reply #22 on: 07/27/2011 08:52 AM »


In the end it is cheaper to buy a second-hand Soyuz or Progress with an on-board Kurs !

That would be kind of difficult since the Soyuz Kurs antennas are lost when the modules separate for entry. As for a second hand Progress, there ain't no such thing, by definition.  :)
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« Reply #23 on: 07/27/2011 03:04 PM »

A "used" Progress in this context means that the function of delivering cargo to ISS has been completed, and the Progress has separated from ISS. At this point, it may be available for use for other customers.

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« Reply #24 on: 07/27/2011 05:48 PM »

Back to the -astute - CSI scheme.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/199/1
How does the Soyuz / logistic module docks with the Block D or Breeze ?
Danderman
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« Reply #25 on: 07/27/2011 05:57 PM »

Back to the -astute - CSI scheme.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/199/1
How does the Soyuz / logistic module docks with the Block D or Breeze ?


In the CSI "Lunar Express" system, the Soyuz rendezvous with the Blok-DM/Briz-M baselines Kurs-SM, but it may be possible to conduct the operation without Kurs at all, to save some mass; we also considered use of Kurs-MM.

One of the variants of the scheme would have the crew jettison the Kurs active and passive boxes prior to TLI, although that would be a bit of a nightmare, it would save ~ 150 kg of mass.
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« Reply #26 on: 07/27/2011 06:23 PM »

A "used" Progress in this context means that the function of delivering cargo to ISS has been completed, and the Progress has separated from ISS. At this point, it may be available for use for other customers.



Think the Russians are still removing the Kurs boxes from Progress and stowing them on ISS for later return, even though the shuttle is no longer available to return them.
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« Reply #27 on: 07/27/2011 06:25 PM »

A "used" Progress in this context means that the function of delivering cargo to ISS has been completed, and the Progress has separated from ISS. At this point, it may be available for use for other customers.



Think the Russians are still removing the Kurs boxes from Progress and stowing them on ISS for later return, even though the shuttle is no longer available to return them.

Yes - the Lunar Express bseline requires that a Kurs active box be expended. That is one of the reasons why we were looking at not using Kurs for the rendezvous as an option, or using Kurs-MM.

When Lunar Express was first presented, Roskosmos was only flying 2 Soyuz and 3 - 4 Progress per year, so Kurs boxes were available. Now, with so many additional Kurs boxes needed, there may not be enough for Lunar Express. However, there are options.

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« Reply #28 on: 07/28/2011 05:16 AM »

Got to learn about Kurs - any documentation on it is welcome.
Danderman
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« Reply #29 on: 07/28/2011 04:46 PM »

Got to learn about Kurs - any documentation on it is welcome.

http://niitp.ru/eng/
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