Author Topic: NASA Langley confirms they are working to confirm the Widom/Larsen LENR theory  (Read 68160 times)

Offline jimgagnon

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New Energy Times Dr Dennis Bushnell (chief scientist at NASA’s Langley Research Center) wrote “We [NASA Langley] are NOT doing a Rossi Replication attempt although we are using/ had planned to use H2 and Nickel. We are doing experiments to verify, or not, the W-L [Widom Larsen] theory.”

Widom Larsen LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) is a technique designed to use low momentum neutrons to join nuclei and generate energy from the weak nuclear force, as opposed to fission/fusion which generates its power from the strong nuclear force. Advantages are scalable high density energy sources with little or no need for radiation shielding.

Good overview here:
  http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/05/nasa-confirms-widom-larsen-theory.html

Offline johncarpinelli

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There has been some progress in the development of LENR. The Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) was able to generate excess heat using nickel and hydrogen. This adds significant credibility as EPRI is sponsored by US electric utilities.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/09/epri-publishes-report-on-energy-production-from-nanoscale-metal-lattice/

Rossi recently published a report on his "hot cat" reactor which has a power density of 163.4 MW * kg-1 and operates at a temperature of 1050 °C.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/10/final-update-corrected-again-pordenone-hot-cat-report/

Assuming that Rossi's "hot cat" is real and there are no radioactive byproducts, what are the implications for space access?  Does this mean a LENR thermal rocket would be a possibility for Earth to LEO?

Aviation could benefit from LENR as an alternative fuel source. Would this enable cheap supersonic flights?

Offline douglas100

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This is an interesting idea. I hadn't heard of it before. It appears that no new physics is needed to make it work (a very big point in its favour.) But there's always a big step from theory to use.

Quote
Would this enable cheap supersonic flights?

Far to soon to say. Let's not get carried away just yet by the promise of amazing applications. Any questions about using this as a source of energy in aviation or space are premature (but fun to speculate about.) It will interesting to see how this develops.
Douglas Clark

Offline bad_astra

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3rd Party review of the "Rossi Device." is now available. I was and remain extremely skeptical, but the paper is interesting reading
http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913


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Offline deltaV

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Here are some (apparent) physicists who think it's bogus:
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/43138/widom-larsen-theory .

Online guckyfan

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Here are some (apparent) physicists who think it's bogus:
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/43138/widom-larsen-theory .

I don't read it that way. They are discussing controversely, what happens but seem to agree, something really happens which is not just chemical.

With all scepticism this is exciting. But I am not a physicist and am not entitled to my own opinion at this point. This review is very strong in claiming something out of the normal happens. I don't know how credible they are though.


Offline grondilu

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An article on phys.org:

Tests find Rossi's E-Cat has an energy density at least 10 times higher than any conventional energy source

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-05-rossi-e-cat-energy-density-higher.html#jCp
Space is pretty much literally an astronomically-high hanging fruit.

Offline xanmarus

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« Last Edit: 05/23/2013 04:52 PM by xanmarus »

Online guckyfan

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This test is not independent and use strange testing methods.
More here http://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/05/21/rossi-manipulates-academics-to-create-illusion-of-independent-test/

Maybe I should repeat, that I am quite sceptic myself. Something that sounds too good to be true usually is.

But about strange testing methods. Why not? They gave a reason why and in their paper described that they made sure during the experiment that they err on the cautios side and the excess heat can be and probably is higher than they measured but certainly not lower.

And as this is a commercial venture by Rossi it is only natural that he keeps some secrets. No problem with that as long as the test is on the heat phenomenon and not on a theory what actually happens.

One wonders though why Rossi is not taking a patent. Obviously he does not want to reveal what exactly he is doing. Does he believe, nobody can duplicate his success?

Offline ChrisWilson68

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(bringing an off-topic discussion from another thread here)

well OK then i will reserve Rossi stuff for a future thread after this; but Rossi has been his own worse enemy credibility wise. this turning it over to a corporate third party as well as kind of going with an NDA for Rossi is most likely an attempt to distance Rossi and his baggage from the device. and i doubt that a serious U.S. corporate or government entity would take such steps if they did not view the device as credible enough to pay for and entangle themselves legally and reputation-wise.

in other news that could be applicable to advances space propulsion as a power source Rossi has shipped three LENR reactors to the U.S for evaluation by a Corporate or possibly government interest. This happened in April. Also Rossi's organisation says that from now on the PR and news point of contact will be this unnamed interest and not his group. 

Since Rossi's device are allegedly capable of scaling to at least the multi-megawatt range these things are very topical for space propulsion as they could easily power something like a  VASIMR engine or act as a starter motor for a fusion drive or act as power for deep space probes rather than using an RTG.

A claim by Rossi that a mysterious unnamed entity in the U.S. is evaluating Rossi's device doesn't strike me as any reason to take Rossi more seriously.  Instead, it sounds like more reason than ever to be skeptical.  This is just the kind of thing a con artist does.

First of all, the claim is conveniently completely unverifiable.  Rossi could just be making it up and nobody would ever be able to find any evidence to disprove it.

Secondly, even supposing Rossi actually shipped a device to some U.S. entity, all that shows is that some U.S. company or government group wanted to test Rossi's device.  There are hundreds of thousands of such organizations -- finding one that is willing to test it is hardly a difficult task.

Finally, what kind of reputable organization behaves this way?  Has there been even a single case of an invention being publicly touted but refused independent testing, then claimed to be shipped to a mysterious unnamed third party for testing that turned out to really work?  I've never heard of one.

With real inventions, either it is kept entirely secret or once it is announced, it is publicly demonstrated and available for independent testing by multiple independent reviewers.

Only pseudoscience works by publicly claiming results while keeping anyone from actually being able to verify them.

Online Stormbringer

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anyway here is the article the above posts spawns from:  http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/rossi-e-cat-undergoing-tests-in-the-united-states

additionally there is a patent in italy for the ecat by Rossi. apparently it is publicly available but not from any web link i have found yet.
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Offline cordwainer

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I'm pretty skeptical of LENR and E-Cat considering Rossi's personal past. Con-artist would be a close description for his past activities. That being said even if LENR proves to possible it would only be applicable as an electrical power generation system. The heat produced would be anywhere close to what one would need to produce a thermal propulsion system for a monopropellant rocket like an NTR.(Even if it were the system would still weigh quite a bit) It might work to increase the efficiency of a jet engine so cheap supersonic flight, maybe?

Online Stormbringer

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i just had a passing thought. i remember reading articles about a (too smart for his own good) american boy who used low speed neutrons from hoarded smoke detector americium to breed fissile uranium for a back yard garden shed nuclear reactor (which worked.) the process evidently worked. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn

and http://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scout/2/

(If I recall correctly this article details his work with americium derived neutrons to enrich uranium.)

 it strikes me that that would be a low energy neutron nuclear change similar to what is being discussed here. also it seems to be a pretty big proliferation/terrorism and environmental threat too. but anyway it's not like LENR has no recognized confirmation. looking for a chemical explanation given that low energy nuclear transformation has been demonstrated seems to be uncalled for.
« Last Edit: 10/27/2013 05:13 AM by Stormbringer »
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Offline Cinder

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Can't see why keeping Rossi out of LENR discussion is not a good thing.  He is nothing but distraction.
The pork must flow.

Offline JasonAW3

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Wait a minute.

     If I'm reading this right it means that the guys who THOUGHT they'd discovered "Cold Fusion" had instead stumbled across another type nuclear reaction utilizing teh Weak Force rather than Fusion.

     Those poor guys... All these years they were ridiculed as frauds and hoaxters and it looks like they'd just misinterprated their data. Oh my...

     This would be the definition of tragidy...

Jason
« Last Edit: 11/01/2013 06:33 PM by JasonAW3 »
My God!  It's full of universes!

Offline QuantumG

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I hear those things are awfully loud. It glides as softly as a cloud. What's it called? Monowhale!

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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The guys over at http://www.quantumheat.org have been trying to replicate LENR for about a year now without seeing any excess heat so far. Just saying.
« Last Edit: 11/02/2013 11:25 PM by Elmar Moelzer »

Offline Nilof

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So if you assume you can make infinite neutrons you can use them to make abitrary ammounts of energy? What a shocker!

Either way, the obvious flaw in the scheme posted by the OP is that bombarding protons with relativistic electrons won't generate neutrons. It'll mostly result in loads of Bremstrahlung and some pair production.
« Last Edit: 11/05/2013 10:54 AM by Nilof »
For a variable Isp spacecraft running at constant power and constant acceleration, the mass ratio is linear in delta-v.   Δv = ve0(MR-1). Or equivalently: Δv = vef PMF. Also, this is energy-optimal for a fixed delta-v and mass ratio.

Offline flymetothemoon

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I think if NASA are committing funds to working on this we can't write it off yet just because we don't yt understand the science.

There are many, many reports of enormous excess heat and transmutation. Brillouin claim to be the only ones who can genuinely control it, but who knows if government labs are making progress in silence. The Japanese are definitely very interested in pursuing it - for obvious reasons.

Offline flymetothemoon

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...and talking of Japan:

https://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/10/22/journal-publishes-toyotas-independent-replication-of-mitsubishi-lenr-transmutation/

"The research appeared in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics earlier this month."

"This is the first mainstream, peer-reviewed journal publication of a replication of the Iwamura experiment."

Offline Robert Thompson

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Low Energy Nuclear Reaction Aircraft, Feb 19-27, 2014
https://connect.arc.nasa.gov/p1zygzm2h3i/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal
36 mins.
Doesn't validate phenomenon, but runs with it. May not be worth your time.

Offline cordwainer

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I am skeptical of LENR but I think it is a shade more likely that some as yet unexplained phenomena is happening here that might be useful as opposed to Blacklights "hydrinos". More research should be made, at the very least it will put the cold fusion camp at rest if nothing pans out.

Offline Raj2014

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Any new news on the low energy nuclear reactions?

Offline sparkymark79

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Yep, a multi million dollar buyout from Industrial Heat with Rossi staying on as Chief Scientist.

I 1MW plant now in operation in a clients premises making usable heat (although no disclosure)

A 6 month report being published within the next week or so with many peer reviewers and apparently full disclosure. rumours are circulating that it's positive. Next few weeks should be very interesting. I recommend you look at http://www.e-catworld.com/

Offline sparkymark79

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Hehe, and lo and behold it appears the very same day I posted this.

available here as a PDF:

http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LuganoReportSubmit.pdf


Offline Star One

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There's a thread for this over on Talk Polywell that in the past has caused a lot of heat.

Offline bad_astra

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Is E-Cat from now on a forbidden subject at NSF? I noticed the entire thread was removed.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline aceshigh

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Is E-Cat from now on a forbidden subject at NSF? I noticed the entire thread was removed.

I don´t think the mods liked you creating a new ECAT thread for something that you could very well have posted on this topic.

Offline bad_astra

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I did not create a thread.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline aceshigh

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I did not create a thread.

well, someone had. And there was this one already.

Offline RotoSequence

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In light of the FTL neutrino debacle, I'm going to wait and see what other labs have to say before getting my hopes up.

Offline aceshigh

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Is there a FTL neutrino debate? I thought that had already been solved and the result was no FTL neutrinos, just measurement errors. We know neutrinos escape a supernova much earlier than the light from the supernova explosion, because they just get through all those layers of dense mass as if nothing existed.

Offline Cinder

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Debacle, not debate.
The pork must flow.

Offline sghill

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So for anyone who doesn't follow LENR news (bear with me if you do- or chime in), here's a little summary of the E-Cat saga.

One of the central P.T. Barnum figures in the LENR world, Andrea Rossi, may have captured the lightning in a bottle.  His "E-Cat" technology has been at the forefront, but he's such a shady character, that no one has been taking him seriously.  Anyhoo, fast forward a few years, and he's got a little factory setup in Italy making Megawatt-scale direct to electricity fusion reactors.  He's building them in shipping containers, and offering them for sale for $1.5 million for a 1 MW reactor (my last solar project was 455kW for $8 million).  Still no one takes him seriously because he won't allow 3rd party testing of the system.  Finally, a known Research Triangle investment firm-Cherokee Investment Partners- buys into the concept and buys Rossi's technology earlier this year, and then sets up a company called Industrial Heat to exploit it, finally bringing it out of the shadows.  http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/industrial-heat-has-acquired-andrea-rossis-e-cat-technology-241853361.html  They then allow one of the units' performance to be verified in Switzerland by a 3rd party.  The results were published yesterday afternoon.

I'll note that even though 3rd party testing was conducted, the guys sponsoring the report are friends with Rossi, and he wasn't entirely out of the picture during the setup and analysis phases.  So don't go short selling oil futures just yet.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2014 07:57 PM by sghill »
Bring the thunder!

Offline Damon Hill

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What I'm seeing so far is lots of heat, but not light.  Nor electricity, nor motion.  Electricity in, heat out.  Maybe net heat out, but the tyranny of thermodynamics is still not broken.

This would be bigger news if some kind of direct conversion to electricity, or motion, were involved. 

But I'm not seeing any evidence for that.  Just invested energy being turned into low grade heat.

Offline Damon Hill

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Thermodynamics.  Is no one paying attention to practical application?  We've already got nuclear energy, but what does it take to turn nuclear energy into useful energy, at what cost?

I see invested energy being turned into low grade heat.  But that's not the whole story.

Offline AdrianW

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So for anyone who doesn't follow LENR news (bear with me if you do- or chime in), here's a little summary of the E-Cat saga. [...]
That was a very balanced summary, well done! Most comments on the Internet are either irrationally dismissive or irrationally optimistic.


What I'm seeing so far is lots of heat, but not light.  Nor electricity, nor motion.  Electricity in, heat out.  Maybe net heat out, but the tyranny of thermodynamics is still not broken.

This would be bigger news if some kind of direct conversion to electricity, or motion, were involved. 

But I'm not seeing any evidence for that.  Just invested energy being turned into low grade heat.
What?! If the results of the experiment are valid – and you don't voice any doubts – then this goes way beyond generation of heat! Just because the tested device doesn't already have a power outlet where you can plug in your waffle iron, doesn't mean that it doesn't have practical and commercial uses.
It seems to me that you have watched too many movies in which theoretical physicists make a world-changing breakthrough, build a generator, and power their lab with their new invention – all on their own, and in their garage.  :P

Besides, the experiment was not about how much electricity could be generated, and it was not about optimizing the heat output (the authors explicitly stated that they throttled the reactor to ensure a stable run).


Offline sghill

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Thermodynamics.  Is no one paying attention to practical application?  We've already got nuclear energy, but what does it take to turn nuclear energy into useful energy, at what cost?

I see invested energy being turned into low grade heat.  But that's not the whole story.

You're missing the point. Anything that generates Watts is an energy source.  Some are more efficient than others.

Here's a great little chart showing energy densities of various fuel sources, including the E-cat results from the 2013 and now 2014 testing from the "LENR FTW" forum.  It's reported energy density is just below plutonium, but more importantly the specific power output over time is second only to TNT.
Bring the thunder!

Offline JasonAW3

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I'm not really sure what is happening, but I don't know of ANY chemical process that can change the isotopic make up of particular materials.

Couple of questions;  Is the net heat being put out higher than the amount of power being put into the system.
   Next; Is the net heat output higher than any electrically catalized chemical reactions known to science?
   Next; Is the net heat output higher than any known chemical reaction but lower than any known nuclear reaction?
   Next; is there ANY radiation output of anykind.  One would expect that any sort of nuclear reaction of any known type would put out at LEAST a slightly higher than background radiation level.
   And last: Using a baseline radiation reading before activation of the E-Cat system, is the radiation detected during its' operation more, equal to or even less than normal background radiation?

     Assuming fakery;  is there any way that the system could be getting fed excess heat, either via an electrical or chemical means.

     Assuming that this is not some sort of fakery, the reason that the team seem so cagey about allowing closer examination of their system may be due to the fact, that, it may be working on some sort of simple principle that these folks may have stumbled across, that they are trying to see if they can patent how they are making use of this principle.  My guess, is that if this is purely on the up and up, that when physicists are allowed to fully examine the system, that they'll be thumping themselves on the heads, because the principle will be so obvious, that everyone overlooked it.

     From the descriptions, it seems like whatever the reaction is, requires the addition of a small amount of electron flow to catalize the reaction.  Cut the electricity, and the reaction stops.  The closest example I can think of off the top of my head is the electrical seperation of hydrogen and oxygen from water.  While this does produce a small amount of heat and a combustible fuel, the overall reaction is energy negative.  You put more energy into the process than you get out.

My God!  It's full of universes!

Offline Damon Hill

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I'm trying to be a practical person, and I'm just not particularly impressed.  People see energy generated, but I don't see electricity or motion being generated.  Most of that heat gain goes up the stack or out radiators and that bugs me, a lot.

Aneutronic fusion might be a true revolution as it generates highly charged helium nuclei, which charge could be neatly captured at double the efficiency of any heat engine.  You see 40% electricity with a complex of turbines and heat exchangers; I see 60% heat that's mostly a liability with some limited application.  With polywell-based p-B11 fusion, that's up to around 80% electricity and just20% lost heat that has to be dissipated.  Thermodynamic's tyranny hasn't been totally broken, but the chains are a lot looser.  Polywell's still a complex technology that has yet to be mastered, but it'd be revolutionary.

I'm being difficult, but I'm being practical.

Oh well, let's see where LENR actually takes us.  Maybe it's more practical than I think it is.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2014 08:05 PM by Damon Hill »

Offline sghill

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Couple of questions;  Is the net heat being put out higher than the amount of power being put into the system.
   Next; Is the net heat output higher than any electrically catalized chemical reactions known to science?
   Next; Is the net heat output higher than any known chemical reaction but lower than any known nuclear reaction?
   Next; is there ANY radiation output of anykind.  One would expect that any sort of nuclear reaction of any known type would put out at LEAST a slightly higher than background radiation level.
   And last: Using a baseline radiation reading before activation of the E-Cat system, is the radiation detected during its' operation more, equal to or even less than normal background radiation?
Assuming fakery;  is there any way that the system could be getting fed excess heat, either via an electrical or chemical means.

As the story rattles around the Internet, some more analysis is coming out.  Here's a very nice article: http://fcnp.com/2014/10/09/the-peak-oil-crisis-cold-fusion-a-new-report/  There's a lot of background info in this article that will answer some of the questions here.

To answer your questions in order:
#1 and #2, time plays a role in answering that.  The answer is "yes, but" to both.  Look at the chart I attached.  TNT is lower density, but faster, uranium and plutonium are higher density, but slower.  They generated 1.5MWh during the 32 day test (running below peak power input) using a gram of fuel.  The reactor operated between 1,200 C and 1,400 C.  That output is higher than a chemical reaction can match for the amount of time it ran with the amount of fuel they had is the simple answer.
#3 and #4, I assume you mean ionizing radiation- it generated lots of heat!  This is kind of the million dollar question.  Fusion the way we expect it to occur should have generated ionizing radiation, but the researchers are all still alive, and they claim there was no radiation.  Keep in mind that the test was a performance validity test, useful for investment purposes, kind of like the EMDrive tests.  They wanted to show the device performed as claimed, and not what was behind the black curtain.
#5, This was a critique of earlier tests conducted by Rossi himself, and then by these researchers in a previous test.  This second test was conducted out of his hands by a 3rd party.  If it is fraud, you have to ask why these independent professors would risk their careers and reputations to help some Americans they've never met.  The technology is now owned by an American venture capital company, and not the Italian working out of his private lab.  That company has wild risks if they are lying, including criminal liability.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2014 07:49 PM by sghill »
Bring the thunder!

Offline ChrisWilson68

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In the comment section of this page (an article about this new report), GoatGuy has some well-reasoned criticism of the heat measurement reported in the new paper.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/10/third-party-report-on-32-day-continuous.html

Offline MP99

Is there any way the device could be putting out only neutrinos as radiation?

Cheers, Martin

Offline ChrisWilson68

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The comments that this test was done by a "3rd party" aren't quite true.  The lead author is a long-time friend of Rossi, and Rossi was personally there to do some of the setup.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Is there any way the device could be putting out only neutrinos as radiation?

My understanding is that current physics says all known nuclear reactions people have thought of that might be going on here wouldn't be putting out only neutrinos, they would also be generating other radiation that would have been detected.

Offline khallow

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The comments that this test was done by a "3rd party" aren't quite true.  The lead author is a long-time friend of Rossi, and Rossi was personally there to do some of the setup.

For me, this is the uncomfortable problem. If this process works, it should be easy to demonstrate without interference from Rossi or requiring people with a connection to him. Basically, you should be able to construct a box with no connection to the outside world which generates power.
Karl Hallowell

Offline bad_astra

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Michael Nelson, Alternate Discipline Leader for SLS Propulsion at NASA’s Propulsion Research and Development Laboratory, notes, “I was impressed with the work that was done to insure the measurements claiming a 3.2 to 3.6 COP were accurate. Aside from the fact that this could not have been produced from any known chemical reaction, the most significant finding to me is the evidence of isotopic shifts in lithium and nickel. Understanding this could possibly be the beginning of a whole new era in both material transmutations and energy for the planet and for space exploration. This is an exciting time to live in and this is an exciting technology to witness come about.”

-taken from  http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/10/prweb12239416.htm
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline Zardar

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The isotopic tests are explained by the ole switcheroo technique. Both testing teams complained about the minimal amounts they had to test.
"There is one born every minute!" my old Granny used to say...

That is my conclusion too.
Although I-Am-Not-A-Nuclear-Physicist, the isotropic measurements don't make sense to me.
I am a test engineer, and I always look for what's missing, not just what's there.
Even disregarding the total absence of neutrons and gammas (since I am willing to test the conjecture that the proposed reactions are non-radioactive):

1) they ran this thing for a month.
2) apparently steady-state for the last 3 weeks or so, delivering ~2.3KW
3) This is supposedly a relatively low-power level for the device.
3) Output power was very flat for those 3 weeks, with no sign of dropping off. (plot 6)
4) Then afterwards they measured the isotopic ratio of the 'ash' - which showed the Li-7 and Ni (non-62) was almost all gone.

So, what would have happened if they had ran the thing for another week?
Would it have kept going steady-state at 2.3KW, and, if so WHAT WOULD IT HAVE USED FOR FUEL?

So, the 'ash' must have been switched  (probably at insertion since observer's tend to be more diligent when doing post-run checks).
The mistake was switching it for a isotopically fully depleted pre-prepared ash sample instead of a partially-depleted one.

QED.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 08:00 PM by Zardar »

Offline sghill

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The isotopic tests are explained by the ole switcheroo technique. Both testing teams complained about the minimal amounts they had to test.
"There is one born every minute!" my old Granny used to say...

That is my conclusion too.
Although I-Am-Not-A-Nuclear-Physicist, the isotropic measurements don't make sense to me.
(I am a test engineer, and I always look for what's missing, not just what's there.)

1) they ran this thing for a month.
2) apparently steady-state for the last 3 weeks or so, delivering ~2.3KW
3) This is supposedly a relatively low-power level for the device.
3) Output power was very flat for those 3 weeks, with no sigh of dropping off. (plot 6)
4) then afterwards they measured the isotopic ratio of the 'ash' - which showed the Li-7 and Ni (non-62) was almost all gone.

So, what would have happened if they had ran the thing for another week?
Would it have kept going steady-state at 2.3KW, and, if so WHAT WOULD IT HAVE USED FOR FUEL?

So, the 'ash' must have been switched  before measurement.
Their mistake was switching it for a fully depleted pre-prepared isotopic sample instead of a partially-depleted one.

QED.

OK, I'm only bringing this up because the ash problem bugs me too.  Couldn't they have loaded in the expected amount of fuel to be burned over the 30-ish day period, and the thing simply ran out of gas when it got to the end?  That'd explain the fully depleted sample, and we don't know enough about the internal process to determine how much of a drop off is to be expected.  My car doesn't slow down to 30 when it runs out of gas.  It just stops, and the tank is empty (actually, I have an electric car, and it will drop off, but that's beside the point  :)  ).
Bring the thunder!

Offline IslandPlaya

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The isotopic tests are explained by the ole switcheroo technique. Both testing teams complained about the minimal amounts they had to test.
"There is one born every minute!" my old Granny used to say...

That is my conclusion too.
Although I-Am-Not-A-Nuclear-Physicist, the isotropic measurements don't make sense to me.
(I am a test engineer, and I always look for what's missing, not just what's there.)

1) they ran this thing for a month.
2) apparently steady-state for the last 3 weeks or so, delivering ~2.3KW
3) This is supposedly a relatively low-power level for the device.
3) Output power was very flat for those 3 weeks, with no sigh of dropping off. (plot 6)
4) then afterwards they measured the isotopic ratio of the 'ash' - which showed the Li-7 and Ni (non-62) was almost all gone.

So, what would have happened if they had ran the thing for another week?
Would it have kept going steady-state at 2.3KW, and, if so WHAT WOULD IT HAVE USED FOR FUEL?

So, the 'ash' must have been switched  before measurement.
Their mistake was switching it for a fully depleted pre-prepared isotopic sample instead of a partially-depleted one.

QED.

OK, I'm only bringing this up because the ash problem bugs me too.  Couldn't they have loaded in the expected amount of fuel to be burned over the 30-ish day period, and the thing simply ran out of gas when it got to the end?  That'd explain the fully depleted sample, and we don't know enough about the internal process to determine how much of a drop off is to be expected.  My car doesn't slow down to 30 when it runs out of gas.  It just stops, and the tank is empty (actually, I have an electric car, and it will drop off, but that's beside the point  :)  ).
There is no 'fuel' burned. It is a trick to fool the monitoring of the input power.

Offline Zardar

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So, the 'ash' must have been switched  before measurement.
Their mistake was switching it for a fully depleted pre-prepared isotopic sample instead of a partially-depleted one.

QED.

OK, I'm only bringing this up because the ash problem bugs me too.  Couldn't they have loaded in the expected amount of fuel to be burned over the 30-ish day period, and the thing simply ran out of gas when it got to the end? 

Nope. According to the Lugano Report,
1) They changed the power level to an arbitrary setting after 10 days. "We therefore decided to increase the power"
2) And "The shutdown date had already been decided when organizing the test"

So, the exact amount of  fuel, or the expected duration of that fuel, could not have been pre-determined.




Offline aero

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I don't trust Rossi.

From the report, Rossi's only involvement was
Quote
charge insertion, reactor startup, reactor shutdown and powder charge extraction.

A little slight of hand could have easily substituted a fully depleted charge for the one extracted.

Why do something like that? Well, to avoid disclosing the total energy available per gram of charge. To avoid disclosing small amounts of quickly decaying radio activity in the recently used charge. I'm sure Rossi could think of other reasons. As I said, I don't trust him.

But that said, the careful work and reporting of the research convinces me that there must be something viable about the e-Cat. And, with no radiation detected during operation, any radio active elements in the used charge would be very - uninteresting.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2014 07:27 PM by aero »
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline Zardar

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I don't trust Rossi.

But that said, the careful work and reporting of the research convinces me that there must be something viable about the e-Cat.

Any indications of interference with the running of the test completely invalidates any "careful work and reporting of the research" and therefore there is no logical basis for being convinced that "there must be something viable about the e-Cat. "


Offline IslandPlaya

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I don't trust Rossi.

But that said, the careful work and reporting of the research convinces me that there must be something viable about the e-Cat.

Any indications of interference with the running of the test completely invalidates any "careful work and reporting of the research" and therefore there is no logical basis for being convinced that "there must be something viable about the e-Cat. "
Quite so.
The delta config triac is the one thing that is constant across Rossi's ever changing devices.
His scam depends on being unable to accurately determine input power into his device.

Online Robotbeat

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Michael Nelson, Alternate Discipline Leader for SLS Propulsion at NASA’s Propulsion Research and Development Laboratory, notes, “I was impressed with the work that was done to insure the measurements claiming a 3.2 to 3.6 COP were accurate. Aside from the fact that this could not have been produced from any known chemical reaction, the most significant finding to me is the evidence of isotopic shifts in lithium and nickel. Understanding this could possibly be the beginning of a whole new era in both material transmutations and energy for the planet and for space exploration. This is an exciting time to live in and this is an exciting technology to witness come about.”

-taken from  http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/10/prweb12239416.htm
Sounds like an engineer. I love engineers, but... They usually aren't trained on just how devilishly tricky Mother Nature is in concealing her secrets and the general scientific discipline of Skepticism. That's okay, so long as you stay within the realm of know physics. Stray outside that realm, and it is SO easy to fool yourself or (as may be the case here) allow yourself to be fooled. One must be armed with skepticism and (ideally) armored by experience wrangling with Mother Nature.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Online Stormbringer

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cold fusion-----------.LENR----------------------->experiment labs blowing up and windows melting.

http://donalfagan.wordpress.com/2013/02/27/nasa-widom-larsen-and-lenr-infighting/

« Last Edit: 11/24/2014 04:28 PM by Stormbringer »
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline bad_astra

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Alexander G. Parkhomov of People's Friendship University in Moscow is reporting he has replicated the LENR results from the Lugano test earlier this year. As the article has not been properly translated from Russian I will refrain from anything further.

And to keep the the thread from being killed, this is posted in relation to theoretical studies, the application to spaceflight is clear enough,  though I do not know if Parkhomov is using Larsen's theory, or simply replicating the "Dog Bone" reactor of Rossi. MFMP will also attempt to replicate their own "dog bone" on January 30.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline bad_astra

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Correction, MFMP starts the fueled test today.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin


Offline birchoff

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I'm trying to be a practical person, and I'm just not particularly impressed.  People see energy generated, but I don't see electricity or motion being generated.  Most of that heat gain goes up the stack or out radiators and that bugs me, a lot.

Aneutronic fusion might be a true revolution as it generates highly charged helium nuclei, which charge could be neatly captured at double the efficiency of any heat engine.  You see 40% electricity with a complex of turbines and heat exchangers; I see 60% heat that's mostly a liability with some limited application.  With polywell-based p-B11 fusion, that's up to around 80% electricity and just20% lost heat that has to be dissipated.  Thermodynamic's tyranny hasn't been totally broken, but the chains are a lot looser.  Polywell's still a complex technology that has yet to be mastered, but it'd be revolutionary.

I'm being difficult, but I'm being practical.

Oh well, let's see where LENR actually takes us.  Maybe it's more practical than I think it is.

I honestly felt and to some extent still feel the same way. A true revolution in energy generation would be if we had a reactor that did direct generation of electricity or at the very least generated energy in a form that we had the ability to convert to electrical energy without loosing so much to waste heat.

Then it occured to me that there are alot of manufacturing and mining processes that can make use of Thermal energy. And to a lesser extent, space is a bloody cold place. So being able to circulate a working fluid that would be heated by that waste heat through an entire ship or station in deep space is a plus.

Offline Comga

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What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline bad_astra

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The google DOC is from the MFMP experimenters. That's the raw data. Go with that.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline bad_astra

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This test is not independent and use strange testing methods.
More here http://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/05/21/rossi-manipulates-academics-to-create-illusion-of-independent-test/

One wonders though why Rossi is not taking a patent. Obviously he does not want to reveal what exactly he is doing. Does he believe, nobody can duplicate his success?

Patent Granted:
https://animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/us9115913b1.pdf
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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This test is not independent and use strange testing methods.
More here http://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/05/21/rossi-manipulates-academics-to-create-illusion-of-independent-test/

One wonders though why Rossi is not taking a patent. Obviously he does not want to reveal what exactly he is doing. Does he believe, nobody can duplicate his success?

Patent Granted:
https://animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/us9115913b1.pdf
Very broadly formulated patent, explicitly does not mention any non chemical reactions.

Offline bad_astra

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If you google NSWCDD-PN-15-00408 you can find the NAVSEA presentation presented at an IEEE meeting by Dr. Louis DeChiaro.

The presentation seems fairly up to date. The images of some sort of LENR powered shuttle on slide 21 is new to me, though.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline tchernik

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If you google NSWCDD-PN-15-00408 you can find the NAVSEA presentation presented at an IEEE meeting by Dr. Louis DeChiaro.

The presentation seems fairly up to date. The images of some sort of LENR powered shuttle on slide 21 is new to me, though.

Very nice document.

It very much looks like this is for real.

Online Robotbeat

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If you google NSWCDD-PN-15-00408 you can find the NAVSEA presentation presented at an IEEE meeting by Dr. Louis DeChiaro.

The presentation seems fairly up to date. The images of some sort of LENR powered shuttle on slide 21 is new to me, though.

Very nice document.

It very much looks like this is for real.
If it were for real, they'd have no problem producing electricity. Have a box that produces tens of kilowatts of electricity, hooked up to an electrical meter, and making money.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline birchoff

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If you google NSWCDD-PN-15-00408 you can find the NAVSEA presentation presented at an IEEE meeting by Dr. Louis DeChiaro.

The presentation seems fairly up to date. The images of some sort of LENR powered shuttle on slide 21 is new to me, though.

Very nice document.

It very much looks like this is for real.
If it were for real, they'd have no problem producing electricity. Have a box that produces tens of kilowatts of electricity, hooked up to an electrical meter, and making money.

guess I would love to understand your definition of "real". Because my definition of real doesnt mean it has to be immediately useful. By your definition nuclear fission shouldn't exist since there was a period of time that it wasnt doing anything useful, much less generating electricity.

LENR/Cold Fusion's problem has always been every academic investigator treating it like a gold mine. In a way it would have been better if it wasnt so easy to forsee a commercial use case for it. Because then it could actually get the proper research treatment, with methods publicly released and a focus more on sharing knowledge and less on making a quick buck.

Offline MP99

If you google NSWCDD-PN-15-00408 you can find the NAVSEA presentation presented at an IEEE meeting by Dr. Louis DeChiaro.

The presentation seems fairly up to date. The images of some sort of LENR powered shuttle on slide 21 is new to me, though.

Very nice document.

It very much looks like this is for real.
If it were for real, they'd have no problem producing electricity. Have a box that produces tens of kilowatts of electricity, hooked up to an electrical meter, and making money.
They claim to have a customer using the heat in a commercial process.

Cheers, Martin

Offline bad_astra

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If you google NSWCDD-PN-15-00408 you can find the NAVSEA presentation presented at an IEEE meeting by Dr. Louis DeChiaro.

The presentation seems fairly up to date. The images of some sort of LENR powered shuttle on slide 21 is new to me, though.

Very nice document.

It very much looks like this is for real.
If it were for real, they'd have no problem producing electricity. Have a box that produces tens of kilowatts of electricity, hooked up to an electrical meter, and making money.

"They" have over fifty million dollars in combined funding from Woodford Equity and Cherokee Investment Funds after two years of dilligence. "They" are not really trying to impress Joe Schmoe
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline Comga

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If you google NSWCDD-PN-15-00408 you can find the NAVSEA presentation presented at an IEEE meeting by Dr. Louis DeChiaro.

The presentation seems fairly up to date. The images of some sort of LENR powered shuttle on slide 21 is new to me, though.

Very nice document.

It very much looks like this is for real.
If it were for real, they'd have no problem producing electricity. Have a box that produces tens of kilowatts of electricity, hooked up to an electrical meter, and making money.

"They" have over fifty million dollars in combined funding from Woodford Equity and Cherokee Investment Funds after two years of dilligence. "They" are not really trying to impress Joe Schmoe

Referencing the investment of venture capitalists is the worst form of "appeal to authority", a logical fallacy.
By definition, venture capitalists try to find endeavors in fields outside of their expertise, which is monetary, in which to invest.  Even the best have poor batting averages, although there are many reasons for that more common than that the physics doesn't work.
« Last Edit: 10/06/2015 07:08 PM by Comga »
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline bad_astra

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Woodford Equity Income Fund is not venture capital. On the other hand, the US Navy is also testing (see the NAVSEA presentation). More information on that is apparently forthcoming, and will probably be more interesting than anything yet mentioned, including a way to replicate Pons and Fleischman.

I'm not interested in this thread getting into the whole debase on Andrea Rossi. There have been persons with agenda's who have tried in the past to derail conversations regarding LENR on here, and succeeded. Rossi is by far not the only person working on this, and his group is not even working on space related applications.

NASA is clearly continuing to work on this, as is NAVSEA, and  that is worth discussing.

My guess is the effect is from quantum tunneling in metal hydrides requiring a Ni, Pd, or Pt catalyst.
« Last Edit: 10/06/2015 07:50 PM by bad_astra »
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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I agree with Robotbeat and remain skeptical. Rossi and his invention have been around for a while. His stories often contradict each other over time. There is still no accepted theory to fully explain the function of the device.

Offline AdrianW

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There is still no accepted theory to fully explain the function of the device.

Independent of everything else, this is by far the weakest of all arguments. You don't need a theory to observe or reproduce an effect. We could observe and reproduce electrical sparks before we could explain them; heck, we could observe and reproduce fire tens of thousands of years before we could explain it.

There are good reasons to be skeptical of Rossi, but this is not one of them.

Offline Star One

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I agree with Robotbeat and remain skeptical. Rossi and his invention have been around for a while. His stories often contradict each other over time. There is still no accepted theory to fully explain the function of the device.

You're attempting to drag it back to one person when there are more involved in this than just him.
« Last Edit: 10/07/2015 08:22 PM by Star One »

Offline sghill

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And to be clear.  Cherokee Investment owns the technology and the company Industrial Heat, and has so for a few years now.  Rossi was assigned the US patent and he is a technical advisor to Cherokee.  It's not Rossi who is claiming to have a working fusion reactor at a commercial customer's site, it's Cherokee.  Cherokee is a US company based in NC.  They are subject to U.S. fraud laws, and they are making some very specific performance claims at this time (such as the patent application data) that would destroy them if it were willingly fraudulent.

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2014/10/raleigh-investor-darden-still-bullish-on.html

They are still playing things close to the vest, as are all the other fusion players because the competitors and thieves are circling.  I imagine they are working on reliability, long term testing, and manufacturing so that when they do go "general availability" with a product they can consistently deliver it.

A 1mW/ $1 million fusion reactor sitting in a shipping container and generating heat for an industrial customer is a big f-ing deal, and the applications for space flight and the world in general can't be overstated.  It's because the possibilities are so huge that we're all getting worked up whenever that sometimes-crook, sometimes-inventor Rossi shows up in the news.
« Last Edit: 10/07/2015 02:13 PM by sghill »
Bring the thunder!

Offline bad_astra

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Well, in this case I think the possibility that NRL has been replicating Fleishman and Pons repeatedly is a far bigger matter. There just isn't information yet, to do anything but speculate.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline WBY1984

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Another thread discussing fringe topics with a whole load of fuzzy data? I lurk here mostly, but I hope topics like this isn't a sign of where this site is headed.

Offline flymetothemoon

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Another thread discussing fringe topics with a whole load of fuzzy data? I lurk here mostly, but I hope topics like this isn't a sign of where this site is headed.

This is the advanced concepts forum.


Offline bad_astra

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Another thread discussing fringe topics with a whole load of fuzzy data? I lurk here mostly, but I hope topics like this isn't a sign of where this site is headed.

Tell you what, when Airbus gives their presser later this month dealing with this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/259591568/Airbus-LENR-Patent-Google-Translation

we can talk in greater detail. Fair enough?
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline Comga

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Some mighty find this interesting.

Naysayers, probably not.

https://meetings.vtools.ieee.org/m/35303
(snip)

I remain intensely skeptical but these are respectable scientists being hosted by an established and  respectable organization. 
It would have been interesting to hear.
Can anyone get a transcript or presentation package from it?
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline sghill

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Another thread discussing fringe topics with a whole load of fuzzy data? I lurk here mostly, but I hope topics like this isn't a sign of where this site is headed.

Then go read the mainstream articles on it instead and please loose the attitude.  Here's a lovely update on LENR efforts from August by a Lawrence National Lab scientist: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-h-bailey/post_10010_b_8052326.html

Or if you simply want hard information on why the e-cat reactor doesn't work as advertised go here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/258595858/USPTO-Final-Rejection-Rossi-Patent

Honestly, I am still scratching my head over what changed between March when USPTO issued a "final rejection" letter to Rossi and August when they accepted the application and granted the patent, but I go do some primary research before shooting my mouth off.
Bring the thunder!

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Or if you simply want hard information on why the e-cat reactor doesn't work as advertised go here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/258595858/USPTO-Final-Rejection-Rossi-Patent

Honestly, I am still scratching my head over what changed between March when USPTO issued a "final rejection" letter to Rossi and August when they accepted the application and granted the patent, but I go do some primary research before shooting my mouth off.
Different patent. The new patent does not mention LENR in any way.
I want to add that while there are a lot of "notes" from respectable scientists floating around, I have yet to see a peer reviewed paper in a physics publication that actually confirms the whole thing. So far, all I see are reviews by "believers" and nothing from skeptics. You need to convince the latter and not the former in order to convince me.

Offline flymetothemoon

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Another thread discussing fringe topics with a whole load of fuzzy data? I lurk here mostly, but I hope topics like this isn't a sign of where this site is headed.

Tell you what, when Airbus gives their presser later this month dealing with this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/259591568/Airbus-LENR-Patent-Google-Translation

we can talk in greater detail. Fair enough?

Oh now that's a biggie. Woah.

Offline Star One

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Another thread discussing fringe topics with a whole load of fuzzy data? I lurk here mostly, but I hope topics like this isn't a sign of where this site is headed.

Tell you what, when Airbus gives their presser later this month dealing with this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/259591568/Airbus-LENR-Patent-Google-Translation

we can talk in greater detail. Fair enough?

This is an earlier related news item.

http://news.newenergytimes.net/2015/01/16/airbus-staff-scientist-sees-potential-of-lenrs/

Offline TheTraveller

« Last Edit: 10/18/2015 12:45 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Comga

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All the Papers From Airbus LENR Conference:

http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/10/17/all-the-papers-from-airbus-conference/
OK. I only read part of one paper but it is a doozy.
"But, for sure, we can say two things about that."
Who writes like that in a professional paper?
The paper seems to say that because the LENR camp is having difficulty generating a proof that convinces "orthodox physicists" of the validity of LENR, they can say "Oh yeah, smarty pants. Well you can't prove that it doesn't exist to OUR satisfaction!"

With this as an example, I don't intend to read another unless someone can point me to one with substance.

Edit: Fixed the acronym
« Last Edit: 10/18/2015 05:02 AM by Comga »
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Offline savuporo

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All the Papers From Airbus LENR Conference:

http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/10/17/all-the-papers-from-airbus-conference/
I think this kind of seals the thread

Quote
6 Conclusion

We have described the basics of the theory of some kind of games which are general enough to represent an important class of existing games. We proposed that Nature mimics such games for energy creation. We showed that such a point of view englobes all known kinds of energy today. But we also showed that this gives room for much more subtle schemes, some of which could be at stake in the experiments of cold fusion. In fact, there are so many possibilities for games, that probably, even if a small fraction of the games was playable for creating energy, we still probably have infinitely many ways to create such energy.

That's from the esteemed scientist who is the only strenuous link to Airbus Group Innovations ( not Airbus ) here, and also the apparent organizer of the 'conference'. I'm sorry, maybe i'm just an engineering dude but this does not resemble a scientific paper.
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Offline alexterrell

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If it were for real, they'd have no problem producing electricity. Have a box that produces tens of kilowatts of electricity, hooked up to an electrical meter, and making money.

That's the crux of the matter. Measuring energy in and out is not difficult. Your average high school lab and physics teacher could do this, beyond all reasonable doubt.

It's now been several years since it was claimed to be producing, but still no repeated, fully verifiable experiments.

So either it's a hoax, or there's something there, but no one's quite figured it out yet.

These guys think there's something there, but are being a bit more cautious:
http://www.slideshare.net/lewisglarsen/lattice-energy-llc-scalability-of-lenr-power-generation-systems-nov-29-2015

Offline sghill

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Here's some 3rd party validation news this week on a US LENR company- Brillouin Energy.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2015/12/prweb13108198.htm


These guys just testified to Congress too.  They are using hydrogen and nickel in their tabletop reactors to generate heat.
http://www.virtual-strategy.com/2015/11/24/congress-views-brillouin-energys-lenr-hht-bolier-reactor-system-generating-thermal-energy#axzz3tNNhepxw



BERKELEY, CA (PRWEB) DECEMBER 02, 2015
Brillouin Energy Corp., developer of renewable energy technologies capable of producing commercially useful amounts of thermal energy (heat) based on controlled low energy nuclear reactions (“LENR”), announced today that its Hydrogen Hot Tube™ (HHT™) Boiler System reactor core modules, were the subject of a recently completed independent Technical Validation Report.
The 35-page Report was prepared as technical due diligence by Michael Halem, a third party technical investigator. The Technical Validation Report summarizes the investigation into Brillouin Energy's HHT™ single tube core prototypes at Brillouin's Berkeley laboratory and at its research partner SRI International. The results are drawn from a series of calibrated tests of both systems. Mr. Halem personally designed tests on the HHT™ systems and then directed the technical staff of Brillouin Energy and SRI to execute the test plans. The tests, in which 95 channels of data were recorded and then investigated, included multiple technical changes to validate the thermodynamic results.
In all cases, the results were consistent: the data demonstrate with very high confidence that the Brillouin Energy HHT™ prototype repeatedly produced lab-scale excess heat from LENR.
"I was given full access to the experiments," said Mr. Halem. "I was able to confirm, with a high degree of confidence, excess energy output above chemical and likely due to a nuclear reaction." The Technical Validation Report affirms that Brillouin Energy’s HHT™ technology "is scalable by assembling multiple HHT™ tubes" in a reactor system. The Report was peer reviewed by Mr. Halem’s technical colleague, Dr. Antoine Guillemin who holds his Masters in Nuclear Physics and Ph.D. in Building Physics. Brillouin Energy’s Technical Validation Report is available upon request to qualified interested parties under a customary non-disclosure agreement.
About Brillouin Energy
Brillouin Energy is a clean-technology company based in Berkeley, California, which is developing, in collaboration with Stanford Research International (SRI), an ultra-clean, low-cost, renewable energy technology that is capable of producing commercially useful amounts of thermal energy from LENR.
Brillouin Energy’s technology includes a proprietary method of electrical stimulation of nickel metal conductors using its unique Q-Pulse™ control system. The process stimulates the system to generate LENR reactions, which generates excess heat. The excess heat produced is a product of hydrogen and a nickel metal lattice. Other than the heat output, there are no (zero) toxic or CO2 emissions of any kind.
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Offline Paul451

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It's probably worth pointing out that Halem and Guillemin are partners in a company called LENR Invest, which is financially involved with Brillouin. Hardly an "independent" validation, and certainly not a "peer review".

(Annoyingly, this stuff seems to happen a lot in the LENR field. We get promised independent validation by external expert researchers, but it always seems to turn out to be some combination the same dozen guys who are already committed LENR believers.)

Offline sghill

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It's probably worth pointing out that Halem and Guillemin are partners in a company called LENR Invest, which is financially involved with Brillouin. Hardly an "independent" validation, and certainly not a "peer review".

(Annoyingly, this stuff seems to happen a lot in the LENR field. We get promised independent validation by external expert researchers, but it always seems to turn out to be some combination the same dozen guys who are already committed LENR believers.)

Excellent catch sir!
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Offline mfck

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Here's some 3rd party validation news this week on a US LENR company- Brillouin Energy.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2015/12/prweb13108198.htm


These guys just testified to Congress too.  They are using hydrogen and nickel in their tabletop reactors to generate heat.
http://www.virtual-strategy.com/2015/11/24/congress-views-brillouin-energys-lenr-hht-bolier-reactor-system-generating-thermal-energy#axzz3tNNhepxw

(...)

Quote
“Demonstrating Brillouin Energy’s latest reactor modules on Capitol Hill is a wonderful opportunity to increase awareness of our clean energy “fuel-free” technology to Congress and others among U.S. governmental and scientific representatives,” explained Robert Godes, President and CTO of Brillouin Energy Corp. 

It's an opportunity. LENR, i mean.

Offline bad_astra

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Online Stormbringer

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Hopefully the google translate link works: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nikkei.com%2Farticle%2FDGXMZO06252800Z10C16A8000000%2F&edit-text=

Tohuku University claims repeatable positive results.
Japanese and machine translation do not go together. *ever*

unless you want a good laugh at some japanese person's expense on twitter. what isn't hillariously wrong is trance inducing or headache inducing or both.

on a related note: Tohuku Zunko is the PR mascot for the Tohuku region. machine translation of her name is Zunko Dung chan. There are human mascots dressed as her around the Tohuku region and an electronic singing synthesis software program with the same mascot.

here is computer program "Dung" chan singing in imitation english using japanese language phonemes:





« Last Edit: 09/20/2016 02:20 AM by Stormbringer »
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Offline bad_astra

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Online Stormbringer

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relevant.

machine translation of Japanese is terrible to the point of being useless even for short simple pleasantries let alone scientific papers.

and the poor Tohuku vocaloid's embarrassing name translation illustrates it perfectly.

Also it's a pretty cool coincidence (at least to me) that the university responsible for the paper is in Tohuku province/ward.
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Offline bad_astra

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You like anime. Noted. Back to updates.
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Offline Willem Staal

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Or if you simply want hard information on why the e-cat reactor doesn't work as advertised go here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/258595858/USPTO-Final-Rejection-Rossi-Patent

Honestly, I am still scratching my head over what changed between March when USPTO issued a "final rejection" letter to Rossi and August when they accepted the application and granted the patent, but I go do some primary research before shooting my mouth off.
Different patent. The new patent does not mention LENR in any way.
I want to add that while there are a lot of "notes" from respectable scientists floating around, I have yet to see a peer reviewed paper in a physics publication that actually confirms the whole thing. So far, all I see are reviews by "believers" and nothing from skeptics. You need to convince the latter and not the former in order to convince me.
Rossi's claim is not whats really happening i guess. I think they just made a form of energy transistor, not a fusion reactor.

Offline Star One

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I meant to post this a while back.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130910-300-cold-fusion-sciences-most-controversial-technology-is-back/

If you can login the whole article is worth a read whatever your position on LENR.
« Last Edit: 10/27/2016 06:37 PM by Star One »

Offline Willem Staal

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3rd Party review of the "Rossi Device." is now available. I was and remain extremely skeptical, but the paper is interesting reading
http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913
i stil think this is not a cold fusion device, its merely a new form of energy transistor.

Offline Bob012345

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3rd Party review of the "Rossi Device." is now available. I was and remain extremely skeptical, but the paper is interesting reading
http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913
i stil think this is not a cold fusion device, its merely a new form of energy transistor.

I wish NASA was interested in Mills' SunCell concept and in the hydrino science behind it. Actually, they were over a decade ago but were embarrassed when people found out. The process has advanced so much recently.
The power is in the megawatt range, at least briefly.

http://brilliantlightpower.com/plasma-video/


Also, Mills believes the Rossi results are not 'cold fusion' but rather possibly hydrino reactions.

Further, Scientific American has published an article first appearing in Chemical and Engineering news which is positive on LENR and Open to Mills' hydrino (at least far more open than before).

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cold-fusion-lives-experiments-create-energy-when-none-should-exist1/


« Last Edit: 12/01/2016 05:48 PM by Bob012345 »

Offline bad_astra

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Offline Star One

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http://northerncalifornia.alumclub.mit.edu/s/1314/2015/club-class-main.aspx?sid=1314&gid=25&pgid=40742&cid=62473&ecid=62473&crid=0&calpgid=19964&calcid=33394

Peter Hagelstein will be giving some sort of public address in Palo Alto November 14. Might be interesting.

Well reading the outline from your link it’s relatively clear that it’s a history of the topic combined with some kind of ideas for the future. It doesn’t sound like he’s going to make any ground shaking announcements.

Offline ppnl

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Or if you simply want hard information on why the e-cat reactor doesn't work as advertised go here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/258595858/USPTO-Final-Rejection-Rossi-Patent

Honestly, I am still scratching my head over what changed between March when USPTO issued a "final rejection" letter to Rossi and August when they accepted the application and granted the patent, but I go do some primary research before shooting my mouth off.
Different patent. The new patent does not mention LENR in any way.
I want to add that while there are a lot of "notes" from respectable scientists floating around, I have yet to see a peer reviewed paper in a physics publication that actually confirms the whole thing. So far, all I see are reviews by "believers" and nothing from skeptics. You need to convince the latter and not the former in order to convince me.
Rossi's claim is not whats really happening i guess. I think they just made a form of energy transistor, not a fusion reactor.

Almost afraid to ask but what is an energy transistor?

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