Author Topic: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6  (Read 55606 times)

Offline agman25

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ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« on: 01/15/2010 03:56 PM »
Important quote

"However, he says the new vehicle will almost certainly adopt the modular approach that French engineers have proposed, capable of launching three to six or seven metric tons the upper limit of telecom satellites to geostationary transfer orbit. This would shift the focus from dual launches, which have long been the hallmark of Arianespace, to the single launch approach followed by competing operators."




http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/asd/2010/01/15/01.xml&headline=ESA%20Begins%20Work%20On%20Ariane%206&channel=space

Online mmeijeri

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #1 on: 01/25/2010 10:27 PM »
How does this relate to existing plans for a new Vinci upper stage engine and improved SRBs to improve the payload of the Ariane 5? Is the plan for an evolved Ariane 5 being capable of launching two larger satellites simultaneously whereas Ariane 6 would launch a single larger satellite more cheaply?

The French Wikipedia page states that the new upper stage would use Vulcain, which is currently used as the Ariane 5 first stage engine. Why invest in a new Vinci only to throw it away?
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Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #2 on: 01/25/2010 10:50 PM »
Check this document: http://www.congrex.nl/08m35/papers/IAC-08.D2.4.4.pdf

It contains the different proposed design concepts for the NGL or now a days called Ariane 6. All concepts use the Vince engine I believe.
The favored concept is basically an Ariane 5 but with an shortened first stage and a staged combustion engine of 2.5 MN, smaller solid boosters which can be added or removed according to the payload mass and an upperstage with Vinci.
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Online mmeijeri

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #3 on: 01/25/2010 11:54 PM »
Thanks for the link. Can you say more about how this reduces costs?
May Decatur do to SLS what Decatur did to the USS Philadelphia.

Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #4 on: 01/26/2010 12:40 AM »
Thanks for the link. Can you say more about how this reduces costs?
I couldn't figure that too, it's basically the same rocket with the same infrastructure, with a more expensive first stage engine, only the boosters are cheaper because they are smaller, while it can only lift half the payload of its predecessor!
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Online mmeijeri

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #5 on: 01/26/2010 01:28 AM »
OK, how about this hypothetical explanation:

The A5 SRBs add a lot of fixed costs and perhaps variable costs. Removing the solids will obviously reduce payload, but most payloads do not need the full payload capacity anyway. In fact most launches are dual payload launches. Using more launches will not affect the portion of fixed cost allocated to each payload.

Removing the SRBs also removes an enormous amount of thrust. In fact, according to the data on Ed Kyle's Space Launch Report the A5 core would have a T/W <1. By reducing the size of the stage and increasing the thrust of the engine you could get back to an acceptable T/W ratio.

The basic configuration of A6 would then satisfy European institutional needs. Heavier commercial payloads would require strapons and apparently the extra specific cost of these is lower than those of the current SRBs.

All in all the plan would seem to be to get lower fixed costs and as a consequence lower subsidies to commercial payloads while still being able to remain competitive with emerging launchers. Any cost sharing the solids had with French nuclear missiles would be taken care of with Vega, which is perhaps expected to be economically viable without too much subsidy.

The above is all conjecture, it would be interesting to get an expert opinion on all this.
May Decatur do to SLS what Decatur did to the USS Philadelphia.

Offline hektor

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #6 on: 01/26/2010 08:47 AM »
I guess Ariane 6 is pretty much is flux... configurations are being studied at ESA and CNES, with various combination of liquid and solid propulsion.

The most important thing is that it will aim at single launch, six or seven metric tons to GTO. With Ariane 5 phase-out, the capability of Europe to carry out missions to ISS or for exploration will be reduced.
« Last Edit: 01/26/2010 08:50 AM by hektor »

Offline Serafeim

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #7 on: 01/26/2010 11:33 AM »
Quote
   With Ariane 5 phase-out
Ariane 5 will not phase out....
atv,arv and future crewed vehicle need it..

Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #8 on: 01/26/2010 12:14 PM »
Quote
   With Ariane 5 phase-out
Ariane 5 will not phase out....
atv,arv and future crewed vehicle need it..
The document mentions that ATV, ARV or other ATV derived vehicles could be launched an a triple core version of the Ariane 6 instead of Ariane 5 (like the Delta IV heavy configuration).
Although I'm wondering if the Ariane 5 infrastructure is large enough to handle such a big rocket.
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline Serafeim

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #9 on: 01/26/2010 12:20 PM »
I wonder maybe -with the cheap  falcon 9 around-is wise to build ariane 6...

Esa just make the arv and crewed on the ariane 5 and forget these plans.. ::) :'( 8)

Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #10 on: 01/26/2010 12:27 PM »
I wonder maybe -with the cheap  falcon 9 around-is wise to build ariane 6...

Esa just make the arv and crewed on the ariane 5 and forget these plans.. ::) :'( 8)
Actually, if the Falcon 9 captures a large part of the market it would be wiser to build the Ariane 6 instead of keeping the Ariane 5, because the Ariane 6 requires less commercial satellites to keep up the same launch rate.
« Last Edit: 01/26/2010 12:27 PM by ckiki lwai »
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline clb22

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #11 on: 01/26/2010 12:28 PM »
I wonder maybe -with the cheap  falcon 9 around-is wise to build ariane 6...


Falcon 9 isn't around yet. And it is to be seen whether it is cheap and/or reliable at all.

Ariane 5's purpose is to provide independent access to space for European government payloads (ESA, military, other scientific ones, Galileo, ATV etc.). At the moment the costs for having Ariane 5 as a capable launcher for European government payloads is offset by being the market leader in the comsat market. If they were to lose this market leadership, then Ariane 5 would still not go away, the rational for having it stays the same, while the price per launch for government sponsored payloads increases.

Ariane 6 is aimed to a. provide jobs for the European aerospace industry, b. provide a cheaper (operations wise) launcher than Ariane 5, c. that is more flexible. The rational for it will stay the same, to provide Europe with independent access to space for government payloads.
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Offline cheesybagel

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #12 on: 01/26/2010 05:59 PM »
You misunderstand. This is a Soyuz replacement. Ariane 5 is too large and expensive. ESA should not have dropped the Ariane 4 class.

What happened to the staged combustion engine research done with the Russians?

Online mmeijeri

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #13 on: 01/26/2010 06:01 PM »
This is a Soyuz replacement.

That is what Rob Coppinger claims, but is there any hard evidence for this? Building a Soyuz launch pad at Kourou would seem to suggest otherwise.
May Decatur do to SLS what Decatur did to the USS Philadelphia.

Offline cheesybagel

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Re: ESA Begins Work On Ariane 6
« Reply #14 on: 01/26/2010 06:09 PM »
That is what Rob Coppinger claims, but is there any hard evidence for this? Building a Soyuz launch pad at Kourou would seem to suggest otherwise.

Last time ESA built a new rocket, it took them 10 years. Notice they are claiming an entry into service of this rocket by 2025. Meanwhile they need to launch Galileo with something.

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