Impact of lunar ice on Exploration Architecture

[Bill White]

First, I would focus like a laser beam on getting a few highly capable, highly mobile rovers down on the surface, near the more promising locations.

That rumored "Project M" could be ideal and I'd betcha a Robonaut could wield a mean shovel.

http://robonaut.jsc.nasa.gov/

Project M:

http://www.americaspace.org/?p=364

[Patchouli]

First, I would focus like a laser beam on getting a few highly capable, highly mobile rovers down on the surface, near the more promising locations.

That rumored "Project M" could be ideal and I'd betcha a Robonaut could wield a mean shovel.

http://robonaut.jsc.nasa.gov/

Project M:

http://www.americaspace.org/?p=364

Better idea might be getting Athlete and Chariot on the moon.

http://www-robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/systems/system.cfm?System=11

These can dig ,carry drills and act as bulldozers etc.

Design a setup that takes maximum advantage of the Delta IV-Hs or F9-Hs payload.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/G-GSfw9bKBs&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/G-GSfw9bKBs&rel=1</a>

[Bill White]

Well yes, but robotic precursors are necessary in any event to scout the best landing sites.

[Patchouli]

Well yes, but robotic precursors are necessary in any event to scout the best landing sites.

Sorry I meant uncrewed variants that were teleoperated from Earth or even EML1.
These vehicles can operate remotely or even autonomously in the case of ATHLETE.

[Bill White]

Well yes, but robotic precursors are necessary in any event to scout the best landing sites.

Sorry I meant uncrewed variants that were teleoperated from Earth or even EML1.
These vehicles can operate remotely or even autonomously in the case of ATHLETE.

Okay!

But a Robonaut driver would make for some awesome video. ;-)

[Danderman]

I read one ton of ore yields 36 ounces of water.

You read incorrectly. We don't know today what the admixture of ice and regolith is in those craters. As an example, its possible that banks of ice are sitting against the crater walls.

[Danderman]

Sorry I meant uncrewed variants that were teleoperated from Earth or even EML1.
These vehicles can operate remotely or even autonomously in the case of ATHLETE.

I do not believe that teleoperation of a rover in a shadowed crater would be likely.

[savuporo]

Sorry I meant uncrewed variants that were teleoperated from Earth or even EML1.
These vehicles can operate remotely or even autonomously in the case of ATHLETE.

I do not believe that teleoperation of a rover in a shadowed crater would be likely.

So you think ESA is just doing these things for fun ?
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM4GKRTKMF_index_0.html

NASA too ?
http://www.astroday.net/MKrovers.html

[Danderman]

Sorry I meant uncrewed variants that were teleoperated from Earth or even EML1.
These vehicles can operate remotely or even autonomously in the case of ATHLETE.

I do not believe that teleoperation of a rover in a shadowed crater would be likely.

So you think ESA is just doing these things for fun ?
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM4GKRTKMF_index_0.html

NASA too ?
http://www.astroday.net/MKrovers.html

These discuss teleoperation of a rover in a crater, but not necessarily a shadowed crater at the lunar south pole. When I say "shadowed", I mean a crater that does not receive Earthlight nor sunlight.

[savuporo]

ESA challenge was specifically targetted at operating in a shadowed crater. Read the field reports.

In fact, you can take a look at winning robot operating in the dark in the second half of this video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/-xNqNnajCx4&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/-xNqNnajCx4&rel=1</a>

Even more specifically

Built within strict size, weight and power constraints, the rovers had to descend down the steep 40 degrees slopes of a 15-metre deep crater, grab 0.1 kg of specifically selected soil then carry it out again - all the while in darkness.

Working from a trailer camp 2000 metres up, each five-strong team was confronted with some distinctly non-lunar weather including heavy rain and clouds. In the event only one rover managed to complete the assignment -Bremen's three-wheeled CESAR (Crater Exploration and Sample Return) robot, duly judged LRC winner on 26 October

[Danny Dot]

I read one ton of ore yields 36 ounces of water.

You read incorrectly. We don't know today what the admixture of ice and regolith is in those craters. As an example, its possible that banks of ice are sitting against the crater walls.

My ability to read is intact, but thanks for showing a concern 

Danny Deger

Edit: I think the NASA report said 32 ounces actually, but I was being generous in providing a 36 ounce per ton water ore to mine at close to liquid hydrogen temps in total darkness. 

I also read the bottom of a crater has a bunch of big rocks and such to deal with.  I sill vote for collecting the "waste" water off the crew.  If you need more water, bring up some dogs or something and collect the water they produce.  You aren't going to catch me walking in the bottom of one of those craters.  Way to many ways to die on that mission. 

This is a job for a really cool robot.  I can't figure out how to get it up and down the crater walls.  Maybe a walking robot is needed.  I think NASA has looked at walking robots in the past.  I know they have a first class robot department in building 9 at JSC.  The even have a working copy of that robot that came to life in a movie a few years ago. 

If they can't build this robot, it can't be built.

I am thinking some type of "robot camp" on the bottom of the crater and a conveyor belt to bring the raw ore up out of the crater.  This would be better than a robot carrying the ore up itself.   Can ball bearings operate at the temps required?  Probably, but the design of them needs to be done.  Or do you heat any area with a bearing

[savuporo]

This is a job for a really cool robot.  I can't figure out how to get it up and down the crater walls.  Maybe a walking robot is needed.  I think NASA has looked at walking robots in the past.  I know they have a first class robot department in building 9 at JSC.  The even have a working copy of that robot that came to life in a movie a few years ago. 

If they can't build this robot, it can't be built.

*sigh*

[robertross]

This is a job for a really cool robot.  I can't figure out how to get it up and down the crater walls.  Maybe a walking robot is needed.  I think NASA has looked at walking robots in the past.  I know they have a first class robot department in building 9 at JSC.  The even have a working copy of that robot that came to life in a movie a few years ago. 

Build a road.  !

Or along the same lines, a ramp to walk/roll on.

Worst case (or best), same idea as a ski lift. Have a post at either end, the robot hooks on, and is carried up and over the crater's edge.

Robotics was my 'profession' before I took a wrong turn...

[kkattula]

How much is your nuke reactor going to mass? A lot more than 2 tons I suggest.  Plus a bulldozer type rover to gather the regolith.

If the magic machine masses less than 2 tons, its output is likely to be verly low. Meaning weeks or months to produce the fuel.

I'm not saying this can't work, but it will likely require 10's if not 100's of tons of equipment, to start producing reasonable quantities.

I am not assuming a massive nuke reactor for surface operations. As a proof of concept, the TOPAZ reactor had a mass of 320 kg, and provided 5Kw for 5 years.

Ignoring the power needed to melt the ice, it takes 32.9 kWh to electrolyze 1 kg of H2 (plus 8 kg of O2) out of 9 kg of water. That's more than 6 hours for the Topaz reactor. For 8,000 kg of propellant at 6:1 O/F mixture ratio, (running hydrogen rich is necessary for good Isp), that's about 7,300 hours, or 305 days.

Of course it won't be 100% efficient, and there will be lots of other power demands. If you want to get it done in less than a month, you're going to need a reactor at least 20 times more powerful than TOPAZ. I don't even know if that TOPAZ mass included the radiators for waste heat.

You're making rocket fuel here.  You have to put in a lot of energy to get a lot out.

As for loading the lunar ice into the magic machine, it really depends on the condition of the ice, whether it is clean, or somehow chemically bonded to the regolith. As suggested above, the only way to find out is to drop small probes into these craters. However, if the water is in the form of ice, and can be broken up by lasers or a drill, its not beyond reason to expect humans to simply shovel ice into a bucket that would be dumped into the prop machine. Its likely that labor saving devices would make the job easier, as would the Moon's 1/6 G. I measured myself shoveling gravel some time back, and moving tons around is feasible for a single person using only a shovel.

Were you wearing a pressure suit?

[A_M_Swallow]

ESA challenge was specifically targetted at operating in a shadowed crater. Read the field reports.

In fact, you can take a look at winning robot operating in the dark in the second half of this video:
{snip}

Built within strict size, weight and power constraints, the rovers had to descend down the steep 40 degrees slopes of a 15-metre deep crater, grab 0.1 kg of specifically selected soil then carry it out again - all the while in darkness.

Working from a trailer camp 2000 metres up, each five-strong team was confronted with some distinctly non-lunar weather including heavy rain and clouds. In the event only one rover managed to complete the assignment -Bremen's three-wheeled CESAR (Crater Exploration and Sample Return) robot, duly judged LRC winner on 26 October

Now that is the easier part of the problem.  For the poles the robot will have to be made out of materials that can take the extreme cold.  Iron for instance turns brittle and shatters at liquid hydrogen temperatures.