Author Topic: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"  (Read 37125 times)

Offline Phillip Clark

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South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« on: 08/04/2009 12:43 PM »
I am well-known for being pedantic and perhaps this posting will just prove how pedantic I am!

When the KSLV-1 is launched, will South Korea join the "launcher club"? - the countries who have used their own rockets to launch their own satellites from their own territory?

I believe the answer is "no".

If we count South Korea as a member of the "launcher club" then we will also have to include Australia which hosted the successful launch of an American Redstone vehicle to orbit the WRESAT payload from Woomera.

Like the WRESAT launch, the South Korean launch vehicle is based upon a foreign first stage launch vehicle, and I believe that this means that South Korea should be excluded from the "launcher club" until a totally home-built launch vehicle places a payload into orbit.

Some may disagree, especially in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula!
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Offline edkyle99

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #1 on: 08/04/2009 08:23 PM »
I am well-known for being pedantic and perhaps this posting will just prove how pedantic I am!

When the KSLV-1 is launched, will South Korea join the "launcher club"? - the countries who have used their own rockets to launch their own satellites from their own territory?

I believe the answer is "no".

If we count South Korea as a member of the "launcher club" then we will also have to include Australia which hosted the successful launch of an American Redstone vehicle to orbit the WRESAT payload from Woomera.

Like the WRESAT launch, the South Korean launch vehicle is based upon a foreign first stage launch vehicle, and I believe that this means that South Korea should be excluded from the "launcher club" until a totally home-built launch vehicle places a payload into orbit.

Some may disagree, especially in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula!

Since South Korea is building the second stage, it seems to me to belong to a special class.  It isn't a South Korean launch vehicle, but neither is it completely Russian.  Something like Japan's H-1, or, for that matter, the "U.S." Atlas V, Delta IV, Delta II, and Taurus II (especially Taurus II), which all use substantial non-U.S. produced components.  ;)

 - Ed Kyle

« Last Edit: 08/04/2009 08:24 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline jcm

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #2 on: 08/04/2009 08:31 PM »
I am well-known for being pedantic and perhaps this posting will just prove how pedantic I am!

When the KSLV-1 is launched, will South Korea join the "launcher club"? - the countries who have used their own rockets to launch their own satellites from their own territory?

I believe the answer is "no".

If we count South Korea as a member of the "launcher club" then we will also have to include Australia which hosted the successful launch of an American Redstone vehicle to orbit the WRESAT payload from Woomera.

Like the WRESAT launch, the South Korean launch vehicle is based upon a foreign first stage launch vehicle, and I believe that this means that South Korea should be excluded from the "launcher club" until a totally home-built launch vehicle places a payload into orbit.

Some may disagree, especially in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula!


I don't think I agree. WRESAT/SPARTA was not just a US first stage, it was a US-designed-and-integrated vehicle. All three stages and the overall development and design of the vehicle were American.

In contrast, the overall design and development of KSLV was done by
Korea, even though they bought in a Russian first stage.
But it's not the same as if they bought, say, an entire Dnepr and
launched that themselves (which would be like the Italians with
Scout at San Marco). So, I see a range of cases, and
I put KSLV just on the 'add them to the list of launching states' side of the
boundary.
 
 Case I:   Buy a satellite and buy launch services in another country
 Case 2   Build your satellite, buy launch services elsewhere
 Case 3:  Buy the rocket and launch it from your own launch site
 Case 4:  Buy all the bits of the rocket, but design and assemble the
              completed rocket yourself (e.g. make an Atlas with an Ariane upper stage or something).  This is what Boeing did with Sea Launch!
 Case 5:  (KSLV) Build a rocket, using some bits of your own and some bits that you bought...
 Case 6: Build and launch a completely local rocket.

I claim that Case 5 counts for club membership, and it's Case 4 that is a bit more questionable...(iand Sea Launch is a hard one: is it an American rocket built with Russian and Ukrainian bits, a Ukranian-American rocket, a multinational corporation rocket, or what?)

 respectfully, Jonathan
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Offline William Graham

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #3 on: 08/04/2009 10:19 PM »
In contrast, the overall design and development of KSLV was done by
Korea, even though they bought in a Russian first stage.
But it's not the same as if they bought, say, an entire Dnepr and
launched that themselves (which would be like the Italians with
Scout at San Marco). So, I see a range of cases, and
I put KSLV just on the 'add them to the list of launching states' side of the
boundary.
 
 Case I:   Buy a satellite and buy launch services in another country
 Case 2   Build your satellite, buy launch services elsewhere
 Case 3:  Buy the rocket and launch it from your own launch site
 Case 4:  Buy all the bits of the rocket, but design and assemble the
              completed rocket yourself (e.g. make an Atlas with an Ariane upper stage or something).  This is what Boeing did with Sea Launch!
 Case 5:  (KSLV) Build a rocket, using some bits of your own and some bits that you bought...
 Case 6: Build and launch a completely local rocket.

I claim that Case 5 counts for club membership, and it's Case 4 that is a bit more questionable...(iand Sea Launch is a hard one: is it an American rocket built with Russian and Ukrainian bits, a Ukranian-American rocket, a multinational corporation rocket, or what?)

 respectfully, Jonathan


I seem to remember reading somewhere that Krunichev were managing the project.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #4 on: 08/05/2009 12:48 AM »

...  Sea Launch is a hard one: is it an American rocket built with Russian and Ukrainian bits, a Ukranian-American rocket, a multinational corporation rocket, or what?


It is a Ukrainian rocket, powered by Russian engines and with a Russian upper stage, topped by a U.S. payload fairing and adapter, launched from a Norwegian platform outfitted in Russia.  So it isn't Russian, Ukrainian, U.S., or Norwegian. 

Same with Taurus II.  Ukrainian/American with Russian rocket engines.  It isn't a U.S. rocket, or Ukrainian, etc., though the program is, at least, being run by a U.S. company versus SeaLaunch, which is (or was) an International consortium.

Let's not even get into the EELVs, or India's GSLV flown with both European-licensed and Russian engines.

Heaven forbid that GX ever flies!  Current drawings show Japan and U.S. flags on the rocket.

These are "International" rockets, I think, but there must be a limit to this definition because hardly any rocket is only from one country today.   

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 08/05/2009 05:03 AM by edkyle99 »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #5 on: 08/05/2009 12:57 AM »

Where does the license the design and build it your self fit in? aka early Japanese rockets.
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Offline johnxx9

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #6 on: 08/05/2009 12:03 PM »
Quote
or India's GSLV flown with both European-licensed and Russian engines.

ESA only transfered the technology of the Viking engine as I am aware of it and the Indians build it locally and have made changes to the design. It is called as Vikas in India.


Offline Space Lizard

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #7 on: 08/19/2009 07:00 PM »
The technology transfer did not come from ESA, more likely from the industry.
I watch rockets

Offline jameskim3249

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #8 on: 08/19/2009 07:42 PM »
Hold on! first of all, I have a question.
Can anyone tell me the definition of "Launcher Club"?

Space Club or Launcher Club... whatever....

I cannot find out any official definition about this term.


Offline jcm

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #9 on: 08/24/2009 03:04 PM »
Hold on! first of all, I have a question.
Can anyone tell me the definition of "Launcher Club"?

Space Club or Launcher Club... whatever....

I cannot find out any official definition about this term.



We're making up the definition in this thread :-)
It's not a formal term, but something the space media occasionally refer to
to describe capabilities.
The intent is to distinguish true spacefaring nations and entities from
those who are just 'passengers'.
It's by analogy to the 'nuclear club' of countries which have their own nuclear weapons.
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #10 on: 08/24/2009 03:34 PM »
It's by analogy to the 'nuclear club' of countries which have their own nuclear weapons.

So with the US's currently crushing federal debt which we owe to everyone, does that mean the US is no longer a member of the "Nuclear Club"  ::)
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Offline jameskim3249

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #11 on: 08/24/2009 06:31 PM »
Quote

Case 5:  (KSLV) Build a rocket, using some bits of your own and some bits that you bought...


  You told that ... "bought some bits....".

  Korea just BOUGHT 1st stage from Russia. 1st stage was totally designed, manufactured and tested only in Russia by Russian space technology. Korea doesn't have the capability to make their own 1st stage rocket yet.

  I think this is not just "some bits".... but "almost whole space-launcher".




 
« Last Edit: 08/24/2009 06:32 PM by jameskim3249 »

Offline mdo

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #12 on: 08/24/2009 10:23 PM »
Trained personnel and infrastructure for launch preparation and tracking should be taken into account. For the given case I don't know to which extent they depend on foreign manpower and resources to fly it. The fact that they apparently put down the money for their own spaceport can be viewed as part of the entrance fee to the club.

Offline hop

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #13 on: 08/24/2009 11:03 PM »
With regards to the "launcher club" it seems to me the point of significance is whether the country can produce and operate launchers themselves. This actually says something about the technical and industrial capability of the nation in question. Buying some parts and paying some foreign experts to assemble and operate them only says something about the size of their wallet.

Whether the technology was originally acquired or developed indigenously is interesting but less relevant to actual capability. A country that has actually masted the complete production cycle will almost certainly be able to continue development on their own.

Of course, there's a whole spectrum of gray in between the extremes, which a binary "in the club"/"not in the club" will never convey.

Offline yoichi

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #14 on: 10/08/2009 05:45 AM »
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/10/08/200910080051.asp

2019 KSLV-II launch to be difficult
For Korea to launch a fully indigenous space rocket in 2019 as planned may be difficult because the country has yet to sufficiently secure core technology, a lawmaker said yesterday.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #15 on: 04/21/2010 03:44 PM »
One of two variants KSLV-II


Offline Danderman

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #16 on: 04/22/2010 12:22 AM »
That 4 strap-on configuration really doesn't make much sense without an adequate 2nd stage.

Offline kraisee

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #17 on: 04/22/2010 04:45 AM »
An apogee kick-stage could easily fit inside that conical area at the top, so this looks usable as a first gen LEO launcher.

They can take their time, perfect this LEO configuration, and then work on a fairly descent sized Upper Stage suitable for supporting GEO launches, which can be phased-in later.

Not a bad way to phase the development approach.

Ross.
« Last Edit: 04/22/2010 05:09 AM by kraisee »
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Offline bolun

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #18 on: 04/27/2012 02:53 PM »
Interview with Seung-Jo Kim, President of Korea Aerospace Research Institute (KARI)

http://www.jaxa.jp/article/interview/2012/vol70/index_e.html

Offline Danderman

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Re: South Korea and the "Launcher Club"
« Reply #19 on: 04/27/2012 03:08 PM »
One of two variants KSLV-II



Is that supposed to be the RD-151 in the back?
« Last Edit: 05/28/2012 04:13 PM by Danderman »